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Theme Changer

 Topic: Democracy and Islam

 (Read 12399 times)
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  • Re: Democracy and Islam
     Reply #90 - May 17, 2012, 02:43 PM

    Political systems always change and adapt.
    I don't think we need to rehash the idea that all societies rise and fall and go through phases.

    I don't doubt that the initial founders of the 'Islamic State' were better rulers than many of our rulers today.  However, can the same be said for the following caliphs?  The answer is of course no.  As Calpihs went on and as the Islamic State grew, what we saw is a more familiar political pattern.  Rule, expansion, privilege, corruption...

    The same is by in large true with the United States.  The founding of the United States and it's related constitution is a huge change.  The initial founders of course truer to its message.  Time went on, politics goes on... corruption, privilege...

    There's noting better about the Caliphate system as opposed to any other political system... except... that when it was new and led by visionaries, it was pretty decent.

    Even as a child attending Islamic school, I questioned the whole notion of the Caliphate and the 'ummah',  In its inception Islam was a small city-state and then expanded.  There is nothing that says that whole world has to be under the same ruler.  Ummah refers to community.  I am not in the same community is someone thousands of km away.  We should have the same ruler and political system.


  • Re: Democracy and Islam
     Reply #91 - May 17, 2012, 02:55 PM

    On early Islam being progressive, I would argue it was seriously worse than the pre existing Empires, for example about slavery.  Tom Holland is very depressing about this, and he does not mention castration.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Democracy and Islam
     Reply #92 - May 17, 2012, 03:11 PM

    Quote
    our Saviour, to whom everything is clear even before it happens, saw how much we had lost during this long peace and to what evils we were led by the interference of Christian kings who wanted us to say that this nature above to all suffering suffered 6 -- something even the demons have not dared to put forward 7. He revealed to us many signs, some of which we did not even notice.  For since that unfortunate schism happened right up until today, three times he has showed us the sun which he showed to those who crucified him at the time of the crucifixion 8 along with tremblings, quakes and terrifying signs in the sky, indicating the malice of the heretics and the events that were to happen on the earth.

    When he saw that there was no amendment, he raised a barbarian kingdom against us, a people who would not hear supplications, who knew no compromise, no peace, and disdained flattery and meanness. Its delight was in shedding blood without reason, and its pleasure laying hands on everything. Its passion was raiding and stealing, and its food hatred and anger; it was never appeased by offerings made to it. When it had prospered and done the will of Him who sent it, it had taken possession of all the kingdoms of the earth, had subjected brutally all the peoples and brought their sons and daughters into a bitter slavery, had avenged in them the opprobrium of God the Word, and the blood of the martyrs of Christ shed through no fault of their own, then our Lord was satisfied and rested, and He agreed to give grace to his people. So the Lord, to punish the sons of Hagar 9 for the ravages they had made, gave them two leaders from the beginning of their kingdom and divided them into two sections.  This was so that we might understand the word that was spoken by our Saviour. But they were united until they had subjected the whole earth, but when they returned to tranquility and rested from war, they fought one another. Those in the West said: “superiority is due to us, and the king must be chosen from among us.” Those of the East contradicted them and claimed that it was to them that this was due. As a result of this contention, they came to blows. When they had settled the business according to their methods, the victory fell to the Westerners called Ummayyads 10, and this after a great slaughter that took place between them. A man among them named Mu`awiya 11, took the reins of government of the two empires: Persian and Roman. Justice flourished under his reign, and a great peace was established in the countries that were under his government, and allowed everyone to live as they wished. They had received, as I said, from the man who was their guide 12, an order in favour of the Christians and the monks. Similarly because of his guidance they held to the worship of one God, according to the customs of the old law. Firstly, they were so attached to the tradition of Muhammad who was their leader, that they inflicted the death penalty on anyone who seemed not to obey his commands. Their troops went every year into distant countries and islands, raided and brought back captives from all the nations that are under heaven. From every man they required only the tribute, and left him free to hold any belief, and there were even some Christians among them: some belonged to the heretics 13 and others to us.14 While Mu`awiya reigned there was such a great peace in the world as was never heard of, according to our fathers and our fathers' fathers. It was as if our Lord had said: “I will test you in this way, as it is written: ‘by grace and justice iniquity may be pardoned.’”15


    http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/john_bar_penkaye_history_15_trans.htm

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Democracy and Islam
     Reply #93 - May 17, 2012, 03:54 PM

    On early Islam being progressive, I would argue it was seriously worse than the pre existing Empires, for example about slavery.  Tom Holland is very depressing about this, and he does not mention castration.


    Early Islam was not progressive relative to all other empires... but it was a good thing for the Arab people before Islam.
    Islam was the civilizing and united force of the Arabs.


  • Re: Democracy and Islam
     Reply #94 - May 17, 2012, 04:10 PM

    ?

    Quote
    So the Lord, to punish the sons of Hagar 9 for the ravages they had made, gave them two leaders from the beginning of their kingdom and divided them into two sections.  This was so that we might understand the word that was spoken by our Saviour. But they were united until they had subjected the whole earth, but when they returned to tranquility and rested from war, they fought one another.


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Democracy and Islam
     Reply #95 - May 18, 2012, 12:14 PM

    Early Islam was not progressive relative to all other empires... but it was a good thing for the Arab people before Islam. Islam was the civilizing and united force of the Arabs.

    greetings and my good wishes to you  scamper_22., That is very important statement you made., I would greatly appreciate any historicalreferences/resources  on that ..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Democracy and Islam
     Reply #96 - May 18, 2012, 01:25 PM

    greetings and my good wishes to you  scamper_22., That is very important statement you made., I would greatly appreciate any historicalreferences/resources  on that ..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Ummm... after Islam, they conquered and became an empire... bringing the Arab people out of the backwater.
    Without a common cause, you can't rally people to become an empire.

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