Democracy and Islam

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- billy
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #30 - May 14, 2011, 09:51 PM

Quote
Maybe, I just hope I'm right. One thing is for sure, suppressing Islamists just bcoz you don't agree with their views never works.

Saying political Islam in all its forms will, for non Muslims, micro-minorities, women, liberal Muslims, lead to a cycle of inquisition and persecution is not suppressing it. Its confronting it.

One of the ruses of Islamism (and forms of Islam) in its manifold strategies of advancement is to suggest its critics are oppressive, bigoted etc.

Countries like Egypt, Pakistan, you and I can do nothing about them. Political Islam has and will take any society it gains currency in to a backward, more brutal, intolerant condition. In the UK, we can do something about it, thats why its advocacy has to be shown up in our cities, towns and our common civic life and public space.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #31 - May 14, 2011, 10:13 PM

Quote from: Aphrodite on May 14, 2011, 09:43 PM
Afaik Hezbollah hasn't been involved in sectarian violence recently and doesn't mind working with different people from different POV.

So what? How does a supposed fact that Hezbollah is not involved in sectarian violence make it a group that does not 'persecute others'?

Hezbollah is a deeply reactionary organization and promotes values that are explicitly and completely anti-egalitarian. Persecution of others is ingrained into the very framework of such organizations.

Do I need to point out that Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch accused Hezbollah of war crimes: "Hezbollah's rocket attacks on northern Israel amounted to deliberate attacks on civilians and civilian objects, as well as indiscriminate attacks, both war crimes under international law"

Hezbollah had fired nearly 4,000 rockets into northern Israel, killing 43 civilians and forcing hundreds of thousands to flee.

Although Hezbollah had said its policy was not to target civilians, its leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said the policy was changed in reprisal for Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilian areas: "As long as the enemy undertakes its aggression without limits or red lines, we will also respond without limits or red lines."

http://articles.cnn.com/2006-09-14/world/amnesty.hezbollah_1_hezbollah-war-crimes-month-long-war?_s=PM:WORLD

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/08/04/israellebanon-hezbollah-must-end-attacks-civilians

Hezbollah doesn't mind working with people with different POV?
Human Rights Watch accused Lebanese guerilla group Hezbollah and the Lebanese government of attempting to silence it and prevent the release of a report accusing Hezbollah of war crimes during the Second Lebanon War.

United Nations has made repeated calls for Hezbollah to disarm and accused the group of destabilizing the region and causing harm to Lebanese civilians.

"Hizbullah's independent paramilitary force "poses first and foremost a key challenge to the safety of Lebanese civilians, and to the government's monopoly on the legitimate use of force."

http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1256150025034

Btw I do hope that you realise that term 'liberals within MB' is a complete oxymoron.
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #32 - May 14, 2011, 10:23 PM

Quote from: billy on May 13, 2011, 11:21 PM
Oh brother. How can so much failure exist in a sentence lauded so highly?

I don't think Allama Iqbal took a literalist view of religion. For him, the type of religion that belongs in politics is not too dissimilar to the notion of a Philosopher-King by Plato.

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Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #33 - May 14, 2011, 10:34 PM

Quote
I don't think Allama Iqbal took a literalist view of religion. For him, the type of religion that belongs in politics is not too dissimilar to the notion of a Philosopher-King by Plato.

But its a fairly unequivocal statement. Politics without religion (Islam) is despotism, and all morality, collective and individual emerges from religion.

And its not being used philosophically here in this article, its being used concretely, definitively.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #34 - May 14, 2011, 10:48 PM

You're right, I think the article is unaware of Allama's more subtle meaning as well.

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #35 - May 14, 2011, 10:53 PM

Quote from: deusvult on May 14, 2011, 07:19 PM
Freedom, equality, advancement in science, architecture, medicine, aesthetics, hell even sports, you can pretty much pick any hobby, sport, science, etc and Islam either founded it, or will make it better.

Quote from: Aphrodite on May 14, 2011, 09:43 PM
One thing is for sure, suppressing Islamists just bcoz you don't agree with their views never works.

I don't think Islamists ought to be suppressed, but met with scorn.

The delusion of their utopian mumbo-jumbo should be picked apart wherever possible.

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #36 - May 14, 2011, 11:08 PM

Quote from: z10 on May 14, 2011, 10:23 PM
I don't think Allama Iqbal took a literalist view of religion. For him, the type of religion that belongs in politics is not too dissimilar to the notion of a Philosopher-King by Plato.

Quote from: z10 on May 14, 2011, 10:48 PM
You're right, I think the article is unaware of Allama's more subtle meaning as well.

I've seen Iranians supportive of the Islamic government constantly reference Iqbal, and claim him as theirs.

They say he made the future prediction of the Islamic revolution in Iran, and gave his blessings to it.

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #37 - May 14, 2011, 11:10 PM

Quote from: olweasel on May 14, 2011, 11:08 PM
I've seen Iranians supportive of the Islamic government constantly reference Iqbal, and claim him as theirs.

They say he made the future prediction of the Islamic revolution in Iran, and gave his blessings to it.

Yes it really is unfortunate that Iqbal is so misunderstood.

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #38 - May 14, 2011, 11:15 PM

Quote from: z10 on May 14, 2011, 11:10 PM
Yes it really is unfortunate that Iqbal is so misunderstood.

Sorry to say this but Z10., The fault lies with NOT those who misunderstood but squarely with Sir Allama Mohammad Iqbal.,

If you disagree with that., then you have to give me references of his works and where people misunderstood him & why he was unable to correct that misunderstanding?

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #39 - May 14, 2011, 11:17 PM

Quote from: z10 on May 14, 2011, 11:10 PM
Yes it really is unfortunate that Iqbal is so misunderstood.

What do you think his vision for Pakistan was?

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #40 - May 14, 2011, 11:40 PM

Quote from: z10 on May 14, 2011, 11:10 PM
Yes it really is unfortunate that Iqbal is so misunderstood.

It is hard to objectively analyse his views from contemporary perspective because one has to be aware of the specific context of the time when he lived but:

From wiki:

In his speech, Iqbal emphasised that unlike Christianity, Islam came with "legal concepts" with "civic significance," with its "religious ideals" considered as inseparable from social order ...

Iqbal thus stressed not only the need for the political unity of Muslim communities, but the undesirability of blending the Muslim population into a wider society not based on Islamic principles ...

He thus became the first politician to articulate what would become known as the Two-Nation Theory — that Muslims are a distinct nation and thus deserve political independence from other regions and communities of India. However, he would not elucidate or specify if his ideal Islamic state would construe a theocracy, even as he rejected secularism and nationalism.

... would deliver speeches and publish articles in an attempt to rally Muslims across India as a single political entity.

If we are resolved to describe Islam as a system of superior values, we are obliged, first of all, to acknowledge that we are not the true representatives of Islam.
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #41 - May 15, 2011, 12:29 AM

Quote from: billy on May 14, 2011, 07:55 PM
I think you're being naive, Aphro.

Billy my silly willy, you might do well to suck from the gushing wisdom of the Pashtun babe. If anyone's mentally benighted on matters political, it is Your Excellency. Aphro's correct to assert that Islamism, quite like socialism, is a mansion of many rooms. The Turks have had a governing Islamist party for the last eight years with no moves to shutter the hot gay bars in Istanbul and chase bikini clad women off the beaches. Islamism does not automatically translate into public executions. That's a sensationalised portrait. And Hezbollah fields Christian candidates and allies with the biggest Christian party, the Free Patriotic Movement headed by Michel Aoun.

It's a more sophisticated outfit than the jejune tabloid image of the Dark Muslim Hordes. Different groups behave differently contingent on their political landscape. Turkey and Lebanon are not a semi-feudal state like Afghanistan. And anybody who says that is simply a knave. Much the same can be said for the Muslim Brotherhood.
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #42 - May 15, 2011, 12:32 AM

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #43 - May 15, 2011, 12:49 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on May 15, 2011, 12:29 AM

Give me two paragraphs explaining that the grass is green, but some are different shades of green, that some mushrooms have psychotropic qualities, some are poisonous, whilst some just taste nice in a stir-fry, and that any political ideology has differing contexts, degrees and strategies.

Differentiation does not preclude commonality in the scheme and continuum of things.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #44 - May 15, 2011, 01:02 AM

Quote from: Kenan on May 14, 2011, 10:13 PM

Hezbollah is a deeply reactionary organization and promotes values that are explicitly and completely anti-egalitarian. Persecution of others is ingrained into the very framework of such organizations.

They can promote what they want as long as they don't impose their views on anyone-they're not!

Quote from: Kenan on May 14, 2011, 10:13 PM
Do I need to point out that Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch accused Hezbollah of war crimes: "Hezbollah's rocket attacks on northern Israel amounted to deliberate attacks on civilians and civilian objects, as well as indiscriminate attacks, both war crimes under international law"

Hezbollah had fired nearly 4,000 rockets into northern Israel, killing 43 civilians and forcing hundreds of thousands to flee.

Although Hezbollah had said its policy was not to target civilians, its leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said the policy was changed in reprisal for Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilian areas: "As long as the enemy undertakes its aggression without limits or red lines, we will also respond without limits or red lines."

http://articles.cnn.com/2006-09-14/world/amnesty.hezbollah_1_hezbollah-war-crimes-month-long-war?_s=PM:WORLD

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/08/04/israellebanon-hezbollah-must-end-attacks-civilians

Hezbollah doesn't mind working with people with different POV?
Human Rights Watch accused Lebanese guerilla group Hezbollah and the Lebanese government of attempting to silence it and prevent the release of a report accusing Hezbollah of war crimes during the Second Lebanon War.

United Nations has made repeated calls for Hezbollah to disarm and accused the group of destabilizing the region and causing harm to Lebanese civilians.

"Hizbullah's independent paramilitary force "poses first and foremost a key challenge to the safety of Lebanese civilians, and to the government's monopoly on the legitimate use of force."

http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1256150025034

Please don't start this into an arab-israeli conflict debate, fact is without the resistance in Lebanon we'd see far more human rights abuses!

Quote from: Kenan on May 14, 2011, 10:13 PM

Btw I do hope that you realise that term 'liberals within MB' is a complete oxymoron.

How? What if there are members who believe Islam needs to be reformed? What if they oppose executions? How many MB members have you talked to? All of them?

@MAB

The druze leader Walid Jumblatt also backs Hezbollah. And I ain't Pashtun
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #45 - May 15, 2011, 01:06 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on May 15, 2011, 12:29 AM
Billy my silly willy, you might do well to suck from the gushing wisdom of the Pashtun babe. If anyone's mentally benighted on matters political, it is Your Excellency. Aphro's correct to assert that Islamism, quite like socialism, is a mansion of many rooms. The Turks have had a governing Islamist party for the last eight years with no moves to shutter the hot gay bars in Istanbul and chase bikini clad women off the beaches. Islamism does not automatically translate into public executions. That's a sensationalised portrait. And Hezbollah fields Christian candidates and allies with the biggest Christian party, the Free Patriotic Movement headed by Michel Aoun.

It's a more sophisticated outfit than the jejune tabloid image of the Dark Muslim Hordes. Different groups behave differently contingent on their political landscape. Turkey and Lebanon are not a semi-feudal state like Afghanistan. And anybody who says that is simply a knave. Much the same can be said for the Muslim Brotherhood.

well everything looks good there in Turkey says bison., true except bison shit in the post everything looks good at present.

But one should realize about this present Turkishism. turkeys moved from Christianism to Muhamadanism to Ataturkism., Lucky that guy put every burkh, beard turkey in jail and clean shaved bearded bisons and redressed females. Yes so we are here now in 21st century turkey running flotillas to drink juice in the name of Palestanianism.,

yes Ataturkism to Islamism. My only hope is they don't move from Islamism back to burkhaism and further down to tribalism with little caliphs in every town.. Well I am always an optimist that optimism increased an orders of magnitude because of the birth of the internet and birth of Bisons minus linguistic masturbation..

So bison did you make any banana sandwich to your girl friend or wife at any time in your life?? . If you didn't DO IT NOW...

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #46 - May 15, 2011, 01:20 AM

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #47 - May 15, 2011, 01:21 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on May 15, 2011, 01:20 AM
@Billy

I'm heartened by your post. I knew that if I pulled down your panties you would come to see the error of your ways. Islamism is no more synonymous with towelheadism than socialism is with Maoism. Send my check in the mail.

Bison what is happening? that is not billy., that is yeezevee.... don't blame billy.

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #48 - May 15, 2011, 01:23 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on May 15, 2011, 01:20 AM

You missed the point of my post. I know that. I'm describing the inanity of describing it to me. Or suggesting that degree and differentiation precludes examining the continuum. These thoughts can be held in one mind, together.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #49 - May 15, 2011, 01:28 AM

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #50 - May 15, 2011, 01:32 AM

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #51 - May 15, 2011, 01:39 AM

I'm interested in what Aphrodite thinks of Muhammad Iqbal.

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #52 - May 15, 2011, 01:45 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on May 15, 2011, 01:28 AM

@Yez

Erdogan's party is no more theocratic than your average centre-right European party. The Turkish Islamists have done more to reach out to religious and ethnic minorities than the secular nationalists secular whose pastime includes sending Kurds to heaven and cracking down on Armenian Christians who want to commemorate the Armenian genocide.

Damn. look at that., that is the first sensible post/response you ever wrote in to CEMB., And you are absolutely right there. Indeed you are right in your words., The present Justice and Development Party (NOT Turkish Islamists ) has done better than the previous regimes but for that I will not give the credit for their Islamism..

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #53 - May 15, 2011, 01:57 AM

/
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #54 - May 15, 2011, 02:11 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on May 15, 2011, 01:57 AM
@Yez

Why do I snigger when you lecture anybody on propriety? The humour value is akin to being rounded on by Lady Gaga for immodesty. I don't assert that the economic advances made the AKP is owing to its Islamism, but that the party is an Islamist one nobody can deny. That's the whole point. Islamism is not synonymous with towelheadism. Like all political movements it is multifacated.

no..no. That is the Islamist party for the sake of votes and to beat others in elections. For me in any country with any religious affiliation which runs in to politics for the sake of political power using religion as their base to win elections is NOTHING BUT a TOWELHEADISM.

Wait few more years to have few more Islamism political parties there ., the other point is you say to billy
Quote from: Mount A Bison on May 15, 2011, 01:32 AM
@Billy

I rejoice to learn that you don't have an IQ south of ten, but one can be forgiven for thinking so when you charge that Hezbollah is no more distinct from the Taliban.

YOU ARE NOT THINKING BISON., is it a body size to brain size problem?? ., decrease that ratio

You must realize here All the guys in taliban are not Killers & murderers , in the same way all the guys in that allahsoldier party are NOT saints. The fact you erect a party and play these propaganda games like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx_L7wrtEC4

with leaders preaching this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tXfIYxPGQs

should tell smart guys like you something. The fact THESE IDIOTS name a party of a political struggle as Hezbollah .. Taliban.. Allah soldiers..allah lovers..allah fuckers means THEY ARE ROGUES.. irrespective of how good and nice people they are as a person.

Trust me on that bison..

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #55 - May 15, 2011, 02:24 AM

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #56 - May 15, 2011, 02:34 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on May 15, 2011, 02:24 AM
Yez,

I really enjoyed your thoughts, but I think it might be more helpfully posted in the humour section. The AKP comes out of an Islamist tradition and its leaders belong to the conservative school of the culture wars. Their brand of Islamism does not espouse the head-hacking theory of politics which obtains in the backwaters of Saudi Arabia. Theirs is marked by the type of regressive social attitudes one finds in conservative parties across the industrial world.

Hezbollah as I've noted does not persecute the Christers. They are actively allied with the biggest such party in Lebanon, namely the Free Patriotic Movement. Here again Islamism takes a more sophisticated form than the gangsterism of the Taliban.

you are no getting my point dear MAB., Religion in politics is No No.. religious games should be out of politics., The moment religion becomes the basis of king maker, the problems will start and compound year by year. You have to realize here AKP is filled with smart guys, they have NOT named their party the way these idiots named as Allah soldier Party or allah fucker party.

As far AS PERSECUTION OF OTHER RELIGION IN THE MIDDLE EAST includig turkey is concerned., I can give you loads of incidents..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-VmkQHncs4

Turkey: bishop's murder was political, Church leaders fear

and the above links are just from Turkey. The question of Christian persecution or persecuting some one in Islamic country is a different game. I am not speaking about that, I am speaking about the fundamental problem that a religion/religious parties create to people, community and country playing political games.

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #57 - May 15, 2011, 03:49 AM

Quote from: olweasel on May 15, 2011, 01:39 AM
I'm interested in what Aphrodite thinks of Muhammad Iqbal.

I don't know enough about him to really say, I think I've only read two of his poems and a little about him lol I'd say he was a sort of open minded, reformist muslim who wanted a nation based on Islamic principles but not a theocracy (if that makes sense) kinda like how Turkey is today; secular state with a govt. of an Islamic background.

Does anyone know about his views of non-muslims, dhimmis, jizya and stuff?
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #58 - May 15, 2011, 03:50 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on May 15, 2011, 01:28 AM
@Aphrodite

I'm gutted. I thought you were a wild Pashtun lass who drinks goat milk and ploughed the fields of the Hindu Kush. I take back all my kind words. You are not the aphrodisiac I'm looking for.
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #59 - May 15, 2011, 08:57 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on May 15, 2011, 01:32 AM
@Billy

I rejoice to learn that you don't have an IQ south of ten, but one can be forgiven for thinking so when you charge that Hezbollah is no more distinct from the Taliban.

I didn't say that.

And you know where that places your score in the IQ schematic.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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