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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Which one (if any) are you more inclined to side with? (Give reasons)
  • Israel - 50 (30.5%)
  • Palestine - 114 (69.5%)
  • Total Voters: 163

 Topic: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?

 (Read 232039 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 13 14 1516 17 ... 39 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #420 - September 15, 2011, 11:50 PM

    And of course Muslim conquest of Jewish land would never involve any theft of Jewish land, right?

    Come on, be realistic about it. Yes, it was back in the middle ages and has bugger all to do with what is going on now, but it would be quite naive to insist that everything must have been just peachy back then. Although we don't have much in the way of records, it is more than likely that some theft of land would have occurred.


    If that region was under Jewish control and the muslims conquered it then yes it would be theft of Jewish land but afaik it was under the control of Byzantine Empire. I've never thought or implied things were peachy I've always known how violent the Islamic conquests were.

    If you mean Jewish tribes who lived in Arabia before Islam and are no longer present, then yes its most likely their lands were stolen and they were forced out or killed. And then there's the Jewish exodus that started during the 30s.
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #421 - September 16, 2011, 01:16 AM

    No, I mean Jews living in the area of Palestine and owning land there, regardless of the fact that the area was then under the control of the Byzantine empire. Conquest of that area would quite likely mean some theft of land occurring.

    What about the 1930's?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #422 - September 16, 2011, 01:47 AM

    Oh right, hmm I know that when muslims conquered the Caliph came to an agreement with the Patriarch of Jerusalem ensuring that Christians would be able to practise their religion and keep their land/property as long as they accepted dhimmi status (jizya etc.)  its known as the "Covenant of Umar" I think it mentions Jews cannot live in certain areas or something so it probably did happen.

    In the 30s Jews started to leave their homeland and began migrating to what would become Israel, either because they were zionists or felt increasingly persecuted, after the creation of Israel they had to leave.
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #423 - September 16, 2011, 01:58 AM

    "They are both lunatics, I call no-contest" - Prince Spinoza on MRasheed vs TheRationalizer debate
    This quote is awesome and suits so many situations Smiley
    copied


    Yay, lufty is back!

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #424 - September 16, 2011, 02:03 AM

    Oh that. Well migration had started before the 1930's but anyway, I was wondering what it had to do with theft of land etc.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #425 - September 16, 2011, 02:31 AM

    An interesting article written Saudi Prince Turki al-Faisal on the UN vote for Palestinian statehood:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/12/opinion/veto-a-state-lose-an-ally.html?_r=1&ref=saudiarabia
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #426 - September 16, 2011, 02:36 AM

    Interesting, but contrast it with this: http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/09/20119158427939481.html

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #427 - September 16, 2011, 03:05 AM

    Whether or not the UN recognizes a Palestinian state does not negate the fact that it doesn't exist.

    Quote
    Fidaa Abu Assi, a 22-year-old blogger and English literature graduate in Gaza, believes there is nothing symbolic in going to the UN and securing recognition of a Palestinian state on the 1967 lines. She is “fed up” with the unimplemented UN resolutions and symbolic moves taken by the PA on her behalf.

    “Some Palestinians would rejoice at the thought of finally having a recognized Palestinian state,” she argues in a blog post. “In essence, however, the whole initiative seems pointless, or rather, insidiously dangerous.” Bewildered, she asks, “How could they [the UN] recognize a state that doesn’t even exist? And, wait, hadn’t the PLO already proclaimed a Palestinian state in 1988 on the basis of UN General Assembly Resolution 181?” (“‘No’ to UN Recognition, ‘Yes’ to US Veto,” 22 July 2011).

    Abu Assi’s view reflects the sentiments of a generation that does not seek more UN resolutions and international declarations. Not even a declaration of a state. A state itself is rather what we desire. A state that we can touch, see and live in. We long for the reunification of the more than 11 million Palestinians living in the world. We want to see facts on the ground and tangible results. We crave for the land which has been relentlessly ripped apart in flagrant violation of dozens of resolutions already passed — and then promptly ignored — by the very same UN to which the PA now turns.

    http://electronicintifada.net/content/palestinian-youth-gaza-skeptical-about-pas-un-bid/10284
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #428 - September 16, 2011, 07:31 AM

    What is slightly amusing is that for all the talk these days of a two state solution, nobody mentions that a two state solution was what actually frigging existed before everyone starting fighting over it.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #429 - September 16, 2011, 07:39 AM

    Exactly, thank you. The two state solution is no solution at all.
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #430 - September 16, 2011, 07:42 AM

    On the contrary, I think it is the only viable solution. My point was that they already had that back in the late 40's, but then decided to go to war over it. Now they think it's a great idea and want the old borders back. Hey ho.

    I sorta feel like saying to them "Well all that kerfuffle was bloody stupid, wasn't it?"

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #431 - September 16, 2011, 10:02 AM

    Exactly, thank you. The two state solution is no solution at all.


    A better thing to do is, the problem is created by Queen . So move all Palestinians 4 million or so that are living in West Bank _ Gaza strip in to London., That will solve the problem there It also will help to make England as Islamic nation in western hemisphere..

     this is the total population of Palestinians in different areas

    Map showing the West Bank and Gaza Strip in relation to central Israel (situation of 2007)
    Quote

     Palestinian territories    3,760,000    [1]
    – West Bank (including East Jerusalem)    2,345,000    [1]
    – Gaza Strip    1,416,000    [1]
     Jordan    2,700,000    [2][3]
    Israel    1,540,000    [4]
     Syria    630,000    [5]
     Chile    500,000    [6]
     Lebanon    402,582    
     Saudi Arabia    280,245    
     Egypt    270,245    
     United States    255,000    [7]
     Honduras    250,000    [8]
     United Arab Emirates    170,000    
     Mexico    120,000    
     Qatar    100,000    
     Germany    80,000    [9]
     Kuwait    70,000    
     El Salvador    70,000    [10]
     Brazil    59,000    [11]
     Iraq    57,000    [12]
     Yemen    55,000    [8]
     Canada    50,975    [13]
     Australia    45,000    
     Libya    44,000    
     UK    20,000    [9]
     Peru    15,000    
     Colombia    12,000    [8]
    Pakistan    8,500    
     Sweden    7,000    [14]
     Guatemala    1,400    


    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daoud-kuttab/when-an-american-palestin_b_963508.html   a very interesting article there on the politics of Palestinians living in different countries., specially in US of A..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #432 - September 16, 2011, 02:03 PM

    A two state solution isn't the ideal solution imo, but I think its the only solution you'll get both parties to agree to.
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #433 - September 16, 2011, 03:03 PM

    ^ ideal solution iz hitlar amirite?

    Yeah an I am super ugly, I can't even beat my chest am too skinny and when I roaaar to attract women, they laugh at me, because it sounds like a girl screaming. I can't even attract any bitches!  Cry

  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #434 - September 17, 2011, 09:44 AM

    ^ ideal solution iz hitlar amirite?


    NOPE.

    well repeat what I said twice in this thread
    Quote
    The only solution not only here but across many conflicts with-in Islam and Muslims Vs Others is ..  
     
    1). Remove Verses from Quran
    2). Remove words from Hadith
    3),-. Remove silly stupid stores from Sunnah
    4). Clean the Character of Prophet of Islam..
    5). Shut the fuck all weirdo bearded baboons
    6). Leave Islam in home and political Islam out of governing a nation..
    7), And No one can question FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION however bad words people may use against Islam or other religions.. prophets/books whatever..

    That will solve 99% of problems with Islam. Off course some of those points are negotiable..


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyNv8kvd2H8

    Huh  " Richard Dawkins "Islam Is One Of The Great Evils In The World" .. And the reason for that is neither Muhammad Nor Quran.  But it  squarely falls on the stupidity of intellectual educated Muslims who shut themselves off due to Brutalities of Muslims leaders in collusion with Islamic preachers. That is slowly changing due to the age of internet and strong support to Freedom of expression.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #435 - September 17, 2011, 01:43 PM

    yeezeevee i wanna right a vary darty rap song abt me n u...

    Yeah an I am super ugly, I can't even beat my chest am too skinny and when I roaaar to attract women, they laugh at me, because it sounds like a girl screaming. I can't even attract any bitches!  Cry

  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #436 - September 17, 2011, 01:48 PM

    yeezeevee i wanna right a vary darty rap song abt me n u...


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1nr9Mw7QIY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sUVpRLP5S4

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #437 - September 17, 2011, 01:57 PM

    diz is for u

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRhLEl7hoXs

    Yeah an I am super ugly, I can't even beat my chest am too skinny and when I roaaar to attract women, they laugh at me, because it sounds like a girl screaming. I can't even attract any bitches!  Cry

  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #438 - September 18, 2011, 07:58 PM

    Yeezevee

    you said

    >>>>>The only solution not only here but across many conflicts with-in Islam and Muslims Vs Others is ..  
     
    1). Remove Verses from Quran
    2). Remove words from Hadith
    3),-. Remove silly stupid stores from Sunnah
    4). Clean the Character of Prophet of Islam..
    5). Shut the fuck all weirdo bearded baboons
    6). Leave Islam in home and political Islam out of governing a nation..
    7), And No one can question FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION however bad words people may use against Islam or other religions.. prophets/books whatever..

    That will solve 99% of problems with Islam. Off course some of those points are negotiable..<<<<<


    Now if the internet were around in the late sixties, all the seventies and the early eighties you would not have been able to associate islam with the palestinian struggle as you are doing now.

    Sure you could have called PLO/Fatah terrorist but not islamic terrorists or that they fighting as an Islamic force. To my knowlege PLO/Fatah were secular. I don't think there were many islamic terrorists around at that time. Terrorists groups that spring to mind, in those days,  would include the IRA, Eta, baader-meinhoff as well as the PLO, the PLO did not use Islam and the world saw the palestinian struggle as freedom fighting.



    Why not? (call it Islamic linked) -because Hamas were yet to form and their infamous charter yet to be concieved, my assertion is that the Isrealis themselves, the clever buggers gave succour and encouraged the formation of hamas (I have provided evidence previously), imo for two reasons

    1. Counterweight to the nationalist PLO/Fatah - (Divide and Conquer)and they succeeded by the ensuing fatah-hamas wars

    2. To Islamicize the struggle - thereby world opinion would see the battle not as a reaction to the common or garden land grab that it was but through the prism of Islam. Because when you have scriptures involved everyone thinks that the problem is intractable, that they have always hated each other (by bringing up verses from a book that is 14oo years old and extrapolating it to the present day)

    I Know YZV that you said you post for everyone but i assume post 398 which has youtube links to Yasser Arafat quoting scripture/islamic events was meant as a response to my post detailing the Israeli islamification of the palestinian struggle, in response i wrote in my post 403


    >>>>>The fact that Yasser Arafat evokes religion in speeches should also take into account the dates. One YouTube link by YZD is dated 1994, the other would be about the same, now I am guessing that this was a reaction to the growing success of Hamas, who had been founded five years previous. Again I state that the creation ( with tacit support of Israel) of Hamas caused the islamification of the Palestinian struggle. Another play by the Israelis.

    I would be surprised if his earlier speeches 60 - 70's contained such references. And I now lol forgotten what exactly was said in the YouTube Links, but I'm guessing it wasn't the fire and brimstone, Jews are apes etc

    He had to counter the weight that had been given to Hamas by the Israelis.<<<<<

    Have you found any evidence of islam being used by the PLO/Fatah prior to the mid-eighties?

    Imo they built these 'bad guys' (hamas) for their own ends and purposes.


    My whole point is that the israeli's always put up obstacles to lengthen the time of any (if ever)just and fair settlement regarding the palestinians. This gives them time to change facts on the ground. Which will make any settlement in the future even more sweet for themselves.
     

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #439 - September 18, 2011, 08:03 PM

    Don't bother reasoning with him on this topic. It's like talking to a brick wall. He's incapable of any nuanced, historically and materially-grounded analysis on the topic. Nothing will change his Manichean analysis of this conflict simply being about the evil Muslim "baboons" versus the righteous "Juice"-- it doesn't matter how much information you bring to the table or how good your arguments are.

    fuck you
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #440 - September 19, 2011, 10:35 PM

    Colonel Q -

    >>>>it doesn't matter how much information you bring to the table or how good your arguments are.<<<<

    In your opinion is my argument a good one?

    I am pretty pessimistic about it all, I think the Israeli's will try to increase the time before they have to sit around the table, they are good at doing that, introducinfg new obstacles, some willing dumb Palestinians get played well by them.

    I think in a century or so the Israeli's will be in a secure enough position to say sorry to the Palestinians and pay them reparations. Grant them casino rights, perhaps.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #441 - September 20, 2011, 12:59 PM

     What is happening here..?? before I respond to Free Spirit let me correct Colonel Q-D
    Don't bother reasoning with him on this topic. It's like talking to a brick wall. He's incapable of any nuanced, historically and materially-grounded analysis on the topic.

    it is not a brick wall., but it is a shield even atomic weapons can not penetrate. Off course  truth, historical  Facts and new ideas on this problem can penetrate the shields, brick walls and thick skulls.
    Quote
    Nothing will change his Manichean analysis of this conflict simply being about the evil Muslim "baboons" versus the righteous "Juice"-- it doesn't matter how much information you bring to the table or how good your arguments are.

    Nonsense ., that word is  NOT for Muslims but for "Islamic Preachers in Mosques" who make noise using Quran & hadith  Here watch the  baboons..

    Syrian baboon
    Yemeni baboon
    Egyptian baboon-1
    Egyptian baboon-2
    A baboon From Ohio US of A
    A baboon From Saudi Arabia
    A baboon-2 From Saudi Arabia
    A baboon From Kuwait
    A baboon From HamasS
    A throat  Slitting  Baboon  

    If you would like to see more Baboons let me know  Colonel Q-D., I can give you 100s if not 1000s..


    So be careful in using that word next time dear Colonel Q-D., That word is special for certain Islamic heroes  preaching baboonalogy  to 1000s of young Muslims  in Mosques..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #442 - September 20, 2011, 02:00 PM

    Yeezevee

    you said


    >>>>>The only solution not only here but across many conflicts with-in Islam and Muslims Vs Others is .. &#160;
     
    1). Remove Verses from Quran
    2). Remove words from Hadith
    3),-. Remove silly stupid stores from Sunnah
    4). Clean the Character of Prophet of Islam..
    5). Shut the fuck all weirdo bearded baboons
    6). Leave Islam in home and political Islam out of governing a nation..
    7), And No one can question FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION however bad words people may use against Islam or other religions.. prophets/books whatever..

    That will solve 99% of problems with Islam. Off course some of those points are negotiable..<<<<<

     Free Spirit, yes I said that but you conveniently neglected it without any comment.  that is O.K.
    Quote
    Now if the internet were around in the late sixties, all the seventies and the early eighties you would not have been able to associate islam with the palestinian struggle as you are doing now.

     You mean to say that you would like to read all those  terror  activities  that emanated from Palestinian Muslims against annihilation of Israel??   Let me give some of the famous ones..

     
    Quote
    The Menarsha synagogue attack took place on August 5, 1949, in the Jewish quarter of Damascus, Syria.[1] The grenade attack resulted in 12 fatalities.

    A flight between Switzerland & Israel: A bomb explodes in the rear of Swissair Flight 330, causing it to crash near Z&#252;rich, killing 38 passengers and all nine crew members. The attack was carried out by Palestinian terrorist group PFLP

    Avivim school bus attacks by Palestinian PLO members, killing nine children and three adults and crippling 19 children.

     Israel_West Germany:  kidnaps and kills eleven Israeli Olympic athletes and one German policeman in the Munich Massacre, Planned by Mohammad Daoud Oudeh, PLO off shoot..

    PLO ten hostages (five of them diplomats) at the Saudi Arabian embassy in Khartoum. Three western diplomats are killed in that incident in Sudan.

    Two Arab terrorists hijack the Chopin-Express from Moscow to Vienna at the East-West border in Marchegg. The train is often used by Jewish exilants from the USSR. The terrorists demand the closure of an Austrian transit camp for Jews on their way to Israel. Chancellor Bruno Kreisky (Jewish himself) complies and allows the terrorists to escape to Libya.

    Pan Am Flight 110: 30 passengers were killed when Palestinian guerillas threw phosphorus bombs aboard the aircraft as it prepares for departure

    Kiryat Shmona massacre at an apartment building by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine members, killing 18 people, nine of whom were children.

    Ma'alot massacre at the Ma'alot High School in Northern Israel by Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine members: 26 of the hostages were killed, 66 wounded.

    In the Savoy Operation, Palestine Liberation Organization gunmen from Lebanon take dozens of hostages at the Tel Aviv Savoy Hotel, eventually killing eight hostages and three IDF soldiers, and wounding eleven hostages.

    Hijacking of Air France Flight 139 (Tel Aviv-Paris) by Palestinian PFLP and German Revolutionary Cells (Revolution&#228;re Zellen);  Operation Entebbe: four hostages, one Sayeret Matkal soldier and 45 Ugandan soldiers killed.

     Abu Nidal Organization fighters stormed the Intercontinental Hotel in Amman, Jordan and seized several hostages. Jordanian security responded by storming the hotel. In the ensuing fighting 3 terrorists, 2 Jordanian soldiers, and 2 civilians were killed.

    Three buildings in Washington, DC were seized by members of the militant African-American Muslim Hanafi sect, and over 100 hostages were taken. One bystander was shot and killed, and Washington city councilman Marion Barry was shot in the chest. After a two-day standoff, all hostages were released from the District Building (city hall), B'nai B'rith headquarters, and the Islamic Center.

    Members of the Arab Revolutionary Council poison Israeli oranges with mercury, injuring at least twelve people and reducing exports by 40 percent.

    Fatah gunmen killed several tourists and hijack a bus near Haifa; 37 Israelis on the bus are killed.

    A bomb destroys an office building in West Beirut housing the headquarter of the Palestine Liberation Front, killing more than 175 people and injuring another 80. The bombing was allegedly carried out by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine &#8211; General Command

    Saudi Arabia, 2 November: Sunni militant group of 200 to 500 men seized the Grand Mosque in Mecca. The ensuing battle with the authorities left more than 250 people dead, including civilians, troops and terrorists.

    five Palestinian terrorists from the Iraqi-backed Arab Liberation Front penetrated kibbutz Misgav Am in Israel during night time and entered the nursery. They killed the kibbutz secretary and an infant boy. They held the rest of the children hostage,

     There were plenty of them before internet age., what was missing at that time was ., many people did not know what these Baboons.. the heroes of Islam.. The preachers of Islam enraging the crowd in mosques using Quran/hadith/sunnah.. and houries in heavens.

    Quote
    Sure you could have called PLO/Fatah terrorist but not islamic terrorists or that they fighting as an Islamic force. To my knowlege PLO/Fatah were secular. I don't think there were many islamic terrorists around at that time.

    Let us not put the dirt under the magic carpet dear Free Spirit.,  Your secular knowledge of PLO/Fatah are what you may have read/seen on TV but you didn't know anyting about the military wings of these organizations. They were all brain washed by Mullahs with Islamic after life

    Quote
    Terrorists groups that spring to mind, in those days, &#160;would include the IRA, Eta, baader-meinh off as well as the PLO, the PLO did not use Islam and the world saw the palestinianstruggle as freedom fighting.

    Did that IRA Eta, baader-meinh off shout Jesus we die for you and we kill for you??  would you like to see PLO shouting Allah hooo akbaaar....??

    Quote
    Why not? (call it Islamic linked) -because Hamas were yet to form and their infamous charter yet to be concieved, my assertion is that the Isrealis themselves, the clever buggers gave succour and encouraged the formation of hamas (I have provided evidence previously), imo for two reasons

     If Israelis were not cleaver  there would have not been a country called Israel. Yes the are clever .. but why are these guys dumb??
    Quote
    1. Counterweight to the nationalist PLO/Fatah - (Divide and Conquer)and they succeeded by the ensuing fatah-hamas wars

    2. To Islamicize the struggle - thereby world opinion would see the battle not as a reaction to the common or garden land grab that it was but through the prism of Islam . Because when you have scriptures involved everyone thinks that the problem is intractable, that they have always hated each other (by bringing up verses from a book that is 1400 years old and extrapolating it to the present day)

     well  that is fact ., I gave you guys those 7 points., you didn't comment on that.

    Quote
    I Know YZV that you said you post for everyone but i assume post 398 which has youtube links to Yasser Arafat quoting scripture/islamic events was meant as a response to my post detailing the Israeli islamification of the palestinian struggle, in response i wrote in my post 403

    well I have to go back and read that 398 & 403., Yes that   islamification or MUMMMIFICATION of brains that are washed with Islam is indeed a problem and the credit goes to Islam and its preachers for creating such problem.
    Quote
    >>>>>The fact that Yasser Arafat evokes religion in speeches should also take into account the dates. One YouTube link by YZD is dated 1994, the other would be about the same, now I am guessing that this was a reaction to the growing success of Hamas, who had been founded five years previous. Again I state that the creation ( with tacit support of Israel) of Hamas caused the islamification of the Palestinian struggle. Another play by the Israelis.

    Well before 2000 we didn't know anything about these guy and what they were preaching.

    Quote
    I would be surprised if his earlier speeches 60 - 70's contained such references. And I now lol forgotten what exactly was said in the YouTube Links, but I'm guessing it wasn't the fire and brimstone, Jews are apes etc

    This Jews are apes is going on for long time as long as 1400 years., but people around the world didn't know.  we better burn that shit out of those books..

    Quote
    He had to counter the weight that had been given to Hamas by the Israelis.<<<<<

    Have you found any evidence of islam being used by the PLO/Fatah prior to the mid-eighties?

    Imo they built these 'bad guys' (hamas) for their own ends and purposes.


    My whole point is that the israeli's always put up obstacles to lengthen the time of any (if ever)just and fair settlement regarding the palestinians. This gives them time to change facts on the ground. Which will make any settlement in the future even more sweet for themselves.

    You see free spirit what you are not realizing is .. this splitting of Islamic groups fighting a cause or fighting each other is not new. It is age old phenomenon. These Islamic political forces always use/used  this splitting/infighting/fighting/killing as the basis of winning  political power through out Islam. It is not specific to PLO, Fatah Hamas etc..etc..

    This Islamic political game has come out in to open because of the internet. other wise  very few people realized this Islamic game.  One of them was Anwar Sheik  Read  his book on line dear Free Spirit

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #443 - September 20, 2011, 11:20 PM

    Quote
    Free Spirit, yes I said that but you conveniently neglected it without any comment.  that is O.K.


    Oh I didn't think it was for my benefit. And I agree in an ideal world that's how it should be. But I think it is bit far-fetched to say that only Islam is the problem in this seemingly intractable israeli/palestinian problem. You got to take into account the religion/scriptures of the christian fundamentalist from the third party involved in this conflict, America, over there they cheer and quote biblical phrophecies that are being fulfilled by Israel and their scriptures, if I am correct see Armageddon. All scriptures could do with toning down.

    I also put it to you that even if as if I have written elsewhere, Jews, Christians and Muslims were adherents of any other religion the results would have been the same, for all three Abrahamic peoples "of the Book" have been detoured from their faith by the worst excesses of political power-grabbing and war-mongering. Thus, the tragic political results and the mass killings would have been much the same.

    Also in my opinion those with greater power deffo Israel/USA should exhibit greater responsibility.

    Quote
    You mean to say that you would like to read all those  terror  activities  that emanated from Palestinian Muslims against annihilation of Israel??   Let me give some of the famous ones.. There were plenty of them before internet age., what was missing at that time was ., many people did not know what these Baboons.. the heroes of Islam.. The preachers of Islam enraging the crowd in mosques using Quran/hadith/sunnah.. and houries in heavensLet us not put the dirt under the magic carpet dear Free Spirit.,  Your secular knowledge of PLO/Fatah are what you may have read/seen on TV but you didn't know anyting about the military wings of these organizations. They were all brain washed by Mullahs with Islamic after life  Did that IRA Eta, baader-meinh off shout Jesus we die for you and we kill for you??  would you like to see PLO shouting Allah hooo akbaaar....??



    YZD, yes I'd like to hear PLO of the sixties and seventies shouting Allah hoooo akbaaar lol .I did not suggest that there wasn't any terrorist/freedom fighting action before the advent of the internet. I said it wasn't from an Islamic perspective. All the groups you have quoted are nationalist/secular outfits. (Btw why is an attack in Saudi Arabia, involving the Grand Mosque in mecca got to do with the Palestinian struggle).

    I doubt they were the type of fighters akin to be roused by Mullahs on a Friday, or the type to chase houris in heaven. Evidence ? circumstantial at least, none of the events you list, at face value, consist of suicide bombing or suicide missions. These guys wanted to come back alive, not the modus operandi of your typical houri-chaser.

    Quote
    If Israelis were not cleaver  there would have not been a country called Israel. Yes the are clever .. but why are these guys dumb


    The answer to why the Israeli are clever is found in the Jewish supremacy thread, obviously in this case the secualr zionist, cultural jew, rather than the religious ones. The Arabs are dumb perhaps they never had exposure to Europe in their history like the jews, their religion is younger, religion makes you dumber. relatively to the Jews most people are dumb. Generally speaking. And I do admit that the palestinians worse enemies are themselves with the israeli's there or thereabouts.

    Quote
    well I have to go back and read that 398 & 403., Yes that   islamification or MUMMMIFICATION of brains that are washed with Islam is indeed a problem and the credit goes to Islam and its preachers for creating such problem.


    You do that and yes, I think the credit should go the clever Israeli's. It was with their help, succour and goodwill that Hamas was able to rise from nothing to governorship. A tacticle move. A neat way of transferring something that was a nationalist/secular/socialist struggle into a islamist one.

    Quote
    Well before 2000 we didn't know anything about these guy and what they were preaching.


    Lol, come off it, history/documantation/radio broadcasts/video footage did not start in 2000, and like I said before it was preaching about houri-chasing then the evidence suggests that those fighters rather come back alive than  meet their maker and bounty. We know that Hamas and its charter had been around since 1987.

    Quote
    You see free spirit what you are not realizing is .. this splitting of Islamic groups fighting a cause or fighting each other is not new. It is age old phenomenon. These Islamic political forces always use/used  this splitting/infighting/fighting/killing as the basis of winning  political power through out Islam. It is not specific to PLO, Fatah Hamas etc..etc..


    Indeed the well-known Arab illness of infighting, but what made this different was before Hamas, all splinter groups were basically fighting the same enemy and even if there were infighting it was as one secular/nationalist group to another. With the Israeli support of Hamas it pitted a nationalist gropu against a religious one, there was a difference.

    Quote
    This Islamic political game has come out in to open because of the internet. other wise  very few people realized this Islamic game.  One of them was Anwar Sheik  Read  his book on line dear Free Spirit


    If you ask me the America gave succour to islamic fundamentalism in Afghnaistan to kick out the Russians and Israel gave succour to Hamas to change the game into an Islamic one.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #444 - September 21, 2011, 02:27 AM

    The Independent

    Robert Fisk: Why the Middle East will never be the same again

    The Palestinians won't achieve statehood, but they will consign the 'peace process' to history.


    The Palestinians won't get a state this week. But they will prove – if they get enough votes in the General Assembly and if Mahmoud Abbas does not succumb to his characteristic grovelling in the face of US-Israeli power – that they are worthy of statehood. And they will establish for the Arabs what Israel likes to call – when it is enlarging its colonies on stolen land – "facts on the ground": never again can the United States and Israel snap their fingers and expect the Arabs to click their heels. The US has lost its purchase on the Middle East. It's over: the "peace process", the "road map", the "Oslo agreement"; the whole fandango is history.

    Personally, I think "Palestine" is a fantasy state, impossible to create now that the Israelis have stolen so much of the Arabs' land for their colonial projects. Go take a look at the West Bank, if you don't believe me. Israel's massive Jewish colonies, its pernicious building restrictions on Palestinian homes of more than one storey and its closure even of sewage systems as punishment, the "cordons sanitaires" beside the Jordanian frontier, the Israeli-only settlers' roads have turned the map of the West Bank into the smashed windscreen of a crashed car. Sometimes, I suspect that the only thing that prevents the existence of "Greater Israel" is the obstinacy of those pesky Palestinians.

    But we are now talking of much greater matters. This vote at the UN – General Assembly or Security Council, in one sense it hardly matters – is going to divide the West – Americans from Europeans and scores of other nations – and it is going to divide the Arabs from the Americans. It is going to crack open the divisions in the European Union; between eastern and western Europeans, between Germany and France (the former supporting Israel for all the usual historical reasons, the latter sickened by the suffering of the Palestinians) and, of course, between Israel and the EU.

    A great anger has been created in the world by decades of Israeli power and military brutality and colonisation; millions of Europeans, while conscious of their own historical responsibility for the Jewish Holocaust and well aware of the violence of Muslim nations, are no longer cowed in their criticism for fear of being abused as anti-Semites. There is racism in the West – and always will be, I fear – against Muslims and Africans, as well as Jews. But what are the Israeli settlements on the West Bank, in which no Arab Muslim Palestinian can live, but an expression of racism?

    Israel shares in this tragedy, of course. Its insane government has led its people on this road to perdition, adequately summed up by its sullen fear of democracy in Tunisia and Egypt – how typical that its principle ally in this nonsense should be the awful Saudi Arabia – and its cruel refusal to apologise for the killing of nine Turks in the Gaza flotilla last year and its equal refusal to apologise to Egypt for the killing of five of its policemen during a Palestinian incursion into Israel.

    So goodbye to its only regional allies, Turkey and Egypt, in the space of scarcely 12 months. Israel's cabinet is composed both of intelligent, potentially balanced people such as Ehud Barak, and fools such as Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, the Ahmadinejad of Israeli politics. Sarcasm aside, Israelis deserve better than this.

    The State of Israel may have been created unjustly – the Palestinian Diaspora is proof of this – but it was created legally. And its founders were perfectly capable of doing a deal with King Abdullah of Jordan after the 1948-49 war to divide Palestine between Jews and Arabs. But it had been the UN, which met to decide the fate of Palestine on 29 November 1947, which gave Israel its legitimacy, the Americans being the first to vote for its creation. Now – by a supreme irony of history – it is Israel which wishes to prevent the UN from giving Palestinian Arabs their legitimacy – and it is America which will be the first to veto such a legitimacy.

    Does Israel have a right to exist? The question is a tired trap, regularly and stupidly trotted out by Israel's so-called supporters; to me, too, on regular though increasingly fewer occasions. States – not humans – give other states the right to exist. For individuals to do so, they have to see a map. For where exactly, geographically, is Israel? It is the only nation on earth which does not know and will not declare where its eastern frontier is. Is it the old UN armistice line, the 1967 border so beloved of Abbas and so hated by Netanyahu, or the Palestinian West Bank minus settlements, or the whole of the West Bank?

    Show me a map of the United Kingdom which includes England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and it has the right to exist. But show me a map of the UK which claims to include the 26 counties of independent Ireland in the UK and shows Dublin to be a British rather than an Irish city, and I will say no, this nation does not have the right to exist within these expanded frontiers. Which is why, in the case of Israel, almost every Western embassy, including the US and British embassies, are in Tel Aviv, not in Jerusalem.

    In the new Middle East, amid the Arab Awakening and the revolt of free peoples for dignity and freedom, this UN vote – passed in the General Assembly, vetoed by America if it goes to the Security Council – constitutes a kind of hinge; not just a page turning, but the failure of empire. So locked into Israel has US foreign policy become, so fearful of Israel have almost all its Congressmen and Congresswomen become – to the extent of loving Israel more than America – that America will this week stand out not as the nation that produced Woodrow Wilson and his 14 principles of self-determination, not as the country which fought Nazism and Fascism and Japanese militarism, not as the beacon of freedom which, we are told, its Founding Fathers represented – but as a curmudgeonly, selfish, frightened state whose President, after promising a new affection for the Muslim world, is forced to support an occupying power against a people who only ask for statehood.

    Should we say "poor old Obama", as I have done in the past? I don't think so. Big on rhetoric, vain, handing out false love in Istanbul and Cairo within months of his election, he will this week prove that his re-election is more important than the future of the Middle East, that his personal ambition to stay in power must take first place over the sufferings of an occupied people. In this context alone, it is bizarre that a man of such supposed high principle should show himself so cowardly. In the new Middle East, in which Arabs are claiming the very same rights and freedoms that Israel and America say they champion, this is a profound tragedy.

    US failures to stand up to Israel and to insist on a fair peace in "Palestine", abetted by the hero of the Iraq war, Blair, are responsible. Arabs too, for allowing their dictators to last so long and thus to clog the sand with false frontiers and old dogmas and oil (and let's not believe that a "new" "Palestine" would be a paradise for its own people). Israel, too, when it should be welcoming the Palestinian demand for statehood at the UN with all its obligations of security and peace and recognition of other UN members. But no. The game is lost. America's political power in the Middle East will this week be neutered on behalf of Israel. Quite a sacrifice in the name of liberty...
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #445 - September 21, 2011, 02:36 AM

    Yup.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #446 - September 21, 2011, 02:43 AM

    Fisk knocked that one out of the park

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #447 - September 21, 2011, 02:47 AM

    The US gummint must know this too. They'll be shitting bricks.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #448 - September 21, 2011, 03:19 AM

    Really, if the US wants to have any chance of retaining any influence in the region, they'll have to have the balls to not  veto. They're totally screwed otherwise.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #449 - September 21, 2011, 03:22 AM

    Good. They can fuck off and leave us alone.
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