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 Topic: An intellectually satisfying paradise

 (Read 6425 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • An intellectually satisfying paradise
     OP - May 20, 2011, 05:43 AM
    In the thread that Hassan started recently he posted a video where he said that the Paradise of Islam is petty and shallow and is not 'intellectually satisfying.'

    So, my question is, what would an intellectually satisfying paradise look like? Can we come up with an ideal for Paradise that will escape the 'baser instincts' that the muslim paradise caters for?
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #1 - May 20, 2011, 12:12 PM
    Imagine a little house on a hill.

    Imagine that the house overlooks a luscious green valley, filled with tall grasses, and sprinkled generously with arresting oaks and with vibrant flowers of every type.

    Imagine that a man sits on a big rocking chair, on the porch of this house, reading quietly from a folded newspaper.

    Imagine that he occasionally takes sips from the hot drink that sits on the small table beside him, and inhales deep breaths from the pipe that hangs loosely from his lips.

    Imagine that he stops to gaze across at the woman he loves, who stands elegantly on the balcony in front of him, peering down at the vast valley that lies before her.

    Imagine also the child that now interjects this scene, by running across the balcony, to stand loyally alongside his mother.

    Imagine now that the woman turns around and looks mischievously at the man in the man in the chair, and a look of knowing, a look of love and a look of contentment passes between the two in that split-second.

    Imagine also that the man quickly looks across at his child, in time to see him turn and look up at his father; and that they both heartily smile at each other, knowing and accepting in that instance, that they will be there for each other forever.

    Imagine now that the mother and child now return their attention back to the valley in front of them, back towards the dynamic sunset that brilliantly decorates the horizon in front of them.

    Imagine also that the man now takes another lungful form his pipe, smiles, and returns to his newspaper, safe in the knowledge that he will always be loved and cherished, and that he will be there always to return that love in abundance.

    Imagine that I am that man on that balcony, and that the pipe and the rocking chair and the warm drink and the sunset and the valley and the beautiful woman and the child are all mine.

    Imagine that this is my personal heaven. I don’t care whether this is an intellectual heaven or not, or whether it matches anyone else’s idea of heaven. This for me would be paradise enough,
    Hi
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #2 - May 20, 2011, 12:19 PM
    Quote
    what would an intellectually satisfying paradise look like?

    You're living it.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #3 - May 20, 2011, 12:55 PM
    Quote from: z10 on May 20, 2011, 05:43 AM
    In the thread that Hassan started recently he posted a video where he said that the Paradise of Islam is petty and shallow and is not 'intellectually satisfying.'

    So, my question is, what would an intellectually satisfying paradise look like? Can we come up with an ideal for Paradise that will escape the 'baser instincts' that the muslim paradise caters for?



    It is impossible for humans to describe an after life - if one exists. It would only be possible for God. However I would expect a truly divine description  - particularly in a book meant for all ages - to describe an after-life that is worthy of such a being. One that points to some immensely higher spiritual objective. One that where the human souls are challenged and progress to higher spiritual levels and planes where we might become part of the cosmos and part of some existence that is infinitely more meaningful than, eating, drinking and having sex for eternity.

    Like I said in the video, if there is a God, then he would be able to use his omnipotence to point to this. After all - he can do anything. At the very least I would expect him to avoid painting a picture that no thoughtful person would find satisfying.

    Actually I do sincerely wish there was something after death - and at times I think there maybe. If there is a God, he has probably done the best thing by remaining silent.

    The worst thing the fabricated God of the Qur'an and the Bible did was to publish a book.
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #4 - May 20, 2011, 01:08 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 20, 2011, 12:55 PM

    The worst thing the fabricated God of the Qur'an and the bible was to publish a book.


    This is sig worthy!
    What makes him blatantly false is the fact that the laws of nature are not written down,we have to discover them through our experience of living,anything neatly packaged or oversimplistic is always suspect.
    If written instructions were indeed essential why did they come so late in the evolution of man?


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #5 - May 20, 2011, 02:56 PM
    What Hassan said.

    Actually can't they think about it, sex feels good because it's conductive to biological reproductive success. What is the point of fucking houris in heaven?

    Islam & Christian concept of afterlife is plain terrible.


    Youtube
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #6 - May 20, 2011, 03:01 PM
    i
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #7 - May 20, 2011, 06:17 PM
    One where the questions never end.
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #8 - May 20, 2011, 06:29 PM
    I remember reading about a play where a man died and was taken to a place where he could have everything he wanted. He asked if he could rob a bank and was told, yes of course. But when it came to it the door just opened for him and the clerks and police facilitated it for him and he was even provided with a getaway car.

    He returned saying 'That was not much fun" adding that "Doing this forever would be as bad as the 'other place'"

    He was told "This IS the other place!"
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #9 - May 20, 2011, 06:32 PM
     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    Ummm... I'm sure I was reading up Plato's form of an afterlife. Basically everything is twice as better... god damnit, I need to revise this haha. wacko
    07:54 <harakaat>: you must be jema
    07:54 <harakaat>: considering how annoying you are
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #10 - May 20, 2011, 06:43 PM
    Old, but still funny joke:
    Bill Gates met God, and God said, "Well, Bill, I'm really confused on this one. I'm not sure whether to send you to Heaven or to Hell. After all, you enormously helped society by putting a computer in almost every home in the world, and yet you created that ghastly Windows. I'm going to do something I've never done before. I'm going to let you decide where you want to go."

    Bill Gates said, "What's the difference between the two?"

    God said, "It might help you decide if you took a peek at both places. Shall we look at Hell first?"

    Bill was amazed. He saw a clean, white sandy beach with clear waters. There were thousands of beautiful men and women running around, playing in the water, laughing and frolicking about. The sun was shining and the temperature was perfect. "This is great!" said Bill. "If this is Hell, I can't wait to see Heaven."

    God said, "Let's go!" and off they went to Heaven.

    Bill saw puffy white clouds in a beautiful blue sky, with angels drifting about playing harps and singing. It was nice, but surely not as enticing as Hell. Bill thought for only a brief moment and rendered his decision. "God, I do believe I would prefer to go to Hell."

    "As you wish," said God.

    Two weeks later, God decided to check up on the late billionaire to see how things were going. He found Bill shackled to a wall, screaming amidst the hot flames in a dark cave. He was being tortured by demons with pitchforks. "How ya doin', Bill?" asked God.

    Bill responded with anguish and despair, "This is awful! This is not what I expected at all! What happened to the beach and the beautiful women playing in the water?"

    "Oh, that," said God. "That was the screen saver."
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #11 - May 20, 2011, 06:47 PM
     Smiley
    Hi
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #12 - May 20, 2011, 06:50 PM
    A never-ending library.
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #13 - May 20, 2011, 07:15 PM
    ^lol at ur sig
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #14 - May 20, 2011, 08:19 PM
    ^Danke.

    @thread: Errr... add a never ending supply of paper, charcoal, pencils, pens and highlighters. And free internet access.
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #15 - May 20, 2011, 09:33 PM
    ^Gern geschehen
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #16 - May 21, 2011, 01:36 AM
    Quote from: arX on May 20, 2011, 12:19 PM
    You're living it.

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    Sorry arX, I don't get the joke :(
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #17 - May 21, 2011, 01:38 AM
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on May 20, 2011, 03:01 PM
    You paint an arresting picture that seduces like a woman in the night Muse. Throw in a good blues harmonica that sounds like the Choir Invisible and we are good to go.

    Paradise, truly realised, I think is the death not of the temporal order merely, but of boredom. That would make eternity bearable. An existence in which one can live in ceaseless preoccupation with the stimulating. The platitude that the resurrection-men's vision offers only the appetites of the flesh is mistaken. The Quran holds out a promise of things not seen by any eye and not heard by any ear, a world in which the faithful can have all they desire. So if your bag is intellectual activity, you will have as many theorems to keep you busy through the neverending aisles of time. The godless objection to the afterlife is constructed on mis-, dis-, and non-information. The Muslims have got their bases pretty well covered here. Takbeer.


    I would agree with this for the large part. It is unfortunate that the muslim idea of heaven is so infatuated with the material gains that can be accrued. I believe that the greatest reward for anyone going to the muslim heaven would have to be being able to see the face of god. How can anything compete with a vision of beauty itself? How can one get bored of seeing the ultimate, the absolute, the apex? How can anyone decide to fall out of love with such a vision and to return to their useless slaves and their useless mansions as somehow more worthy of eternity?
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #18 - May 21, 2011, 01:40 AM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on May 20, 2011, 06:17 PM
    One where the questions never end.


    What do you think of the connection between that idea and the philosophy of hinduism, where re-incarnation is every time a new question to be asked, a new answer to be found?
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #19 - May 21, 2011, 02:00 AM
    Isn't there an end in Hinduism?

    We're having a discussion on Hinduism here and as stated there I don't really understand what it is that is being re-incarnated or where the continuity is...
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #20 - May 21, 2011, 03:27 AM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on May 21, 2011, 02:00 AM
    Isn't there an end in Hinduism?

    We're having a discussion on Hinduism here and as statated there I don't really understand what it is that is being re-incarnated or where the continuity is...


    Google search shows:

    Quote
    Hindus believe that living a good life, where material things are not important and gaining knowledge is, will stop the cycle of reincarnation. If you stop the cycle of reincarnation you will get to be united with god.

    http://www.pps.k12.or.us/schools-c/pages/westsylvan/student/religion/hinduism_am/index.htm

    Far better philosophical concept than afterlife, which is just sick.


    Youtube
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #21 - May 21, 2011, 06:18 PM
    Quote from: z10 on May 21, 2011, 01:38 AM
    I would agree with this for the large part. It is unfortunate that the muslim idea of heaven is so infatuated with the material gains that can be accrued. I believe that the greatest reward for anyone going to the muslim heaven would have to be being able to see the face of god. How can anything compete with a vision of beauty itself? How can one get bored of seeing the ultimate, the absolute, the apex? How can anyone decide to fall out of love with such a vision and to return to their useless slaves and their useless mansions as somehow more worthy of eternity?

    What if He is awfully plain looking?
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #22 - May 21, 2011, 06:26 PM
    Then you'd shrug your shoulders and move on to the eternal virgins.
    Hi
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #23 - May 21, 2011, 07:14 PM
    Quote from: z10 on May 21, 2011, 01:38 AM
    I would agree with this for the large part. It is unfortunate that the muslim idea of heaven is so infatuated with the material gains that can be accrued. I believe that the greatest reward for anyone going to the muslim heaven would have to be being able to see the face of god. How can anything compete with a vision of beauty itself? How can one get bored of seeing the ultimate, the absolute, the apex? How can anyone decide to fall out of love with such a vision and to return to their useless slaves and their useless mansions as somehow more worthy of eternity?


    Reminds me of a rather moving lecture at a conference I attended in what feels like another life, concerning the actions of a particular man in heaven. He was bored of whatever luxuries he had received, and so went to God and asked for more. God granted it and the cycle repeated itself as it does in these stories. One day the man had had everything possible, and asked God for more. So God removed the veil that was hiding Him from the man, and He was so magnificent that the man stood transfixed forevermore.
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #24 - May 21, 2011, 07:45 PM
    Quote from: musivore on May 20, 2011, 12:12 PM
    Imagine that I am that man on that balcony, and that the pipe and the rocking chair and the warm drink and the sunset and the valley and the beautiful woman and the child are all mine.

    This for me would be paradise enough

    Me too. And it's have-able.


    And then you die...
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #25 - May 21, 2011, 07:52 PM
    k
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #26 - May 21, 2011, 07:56 PM
    Get bored of the lack of boredom, you mean?
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #27 - May 21, 2011, 08:02 PM
    Very cute. You are hired as my phrase-maker.

    Sez me: Boredom mothers pleasure. But what say you?
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #28 - May 22, 2011, 02:29 PM
    On emotions, I have nothing to add to Spinoza.

    Change engenders contrast, contrast is pre-requisite to transition, transition inspires emotion. The lasting 'state of happiness' is a myth. Pleasure is a progression from a lower state of completeness to a higher state. The problem with eternity is it's damn fricking long, given sufficient time even the most violent and irregular of changes become a part of the status quo. Death, then, is a mercy. The eastern philosophies posit an alternative, apparently - becoming part of the perfection that is God. Not necessarily a state of perpetual bliss, I understand, rather the cessation of desire. But then how is that different from death? "Desire is the very essence of man" - and that's what mothers gratification. To have everything is to yearn for nothing is to surrender any opportunity for satiation is to never experience pleasure again. Sez me: Rather dead than forever bored. No one was has ever reported being inconvenienced by 13 billion years of non-existence, but who can bear boredom?
  • Re: An intellectually satisfying paradise
     Reply #29 - May 22, 2011, 07:39 PM
    ^
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