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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hey New Member

 (Read 23700 times)
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  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #60 - June 05, 2011, 10:25 PM

    Sure, and you might want to show them this hadith too.

    “Last night, two people came to me (in a dream), and woke me up and said, ‘Let’s go!’ I set out with them, and we came across a man who was lying down, with another man standing over him, holding a big rock. He threw the rock at the man's head, smashing it. The rock rolled away, and the one who had thrown it followed it, and picked it up. By the time he came back to the man, his head had been restored to its former state. Then he (the one who had thrown the rock) did the same as he had done before. I said to my two companions, ‘Subhan Allah! Who are these two persons?’ They said, ‘Move on!’ So we went on, and came to a man who was lying flat on his back, with another man standing over him, holding an iron hook. He put the hook in the man's mouth and tore off that side of his face to the back (of his neck), and he tore his nose and his eye from front to back in a similar manner. Then he turned to the other side of the man's face and did likewise. No sooner had he finished the second side but the first side was restored to its former state, then he went back and did the same thing again.[...] I said to them, I have seen many wonders this night. What do all these things mean that I have seen?’ They said: ‘We will tell you. The first man you came across, whose head was being smashed with the rock, is the man who studies the Qur’an then he neither recites it nor acts upon it, and he goes to sleep, neglecting the obligatory prayers....

    - (Al-Bukhari, no. 6525)
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #61 - June 05, 2011, 10:27 PM

    In the mean time...

    How do you reconcile eternal torture with the idea of a loving god, nevermind an all-loving god? More to the point, how could any finite deed deserve infinite punishment?
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #62 - June 05, 2011, 10:32 PM

    just want to give props to Spinoza...
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #63 - June 05, 2011, 10:41 PM

    In the mean time...

    How do you reconcile eternal torture with the idea of a loving god, nevermind an all-loving god? More to the point, how could any finite deed deserve infinite punishment?


    This is one of the few linger doubts I've had about Islam. I haven't gotten a good answer except a person who said that Hell will eventually end. He made some good points. But in the end he couldn't really answer my question due to some parts of the Quran clearly stating the people of hell fire will never leave it. I know God can do as he wishes but does that not make him a loving god? Maybe my definition of a loving god differs? Just one of those things I don't know what to say to. It's just there and I'm in search of fitting answer.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #64 - June 05, 2011, 10:58 PM

    That was my biggest gripe while I was a Muslim, I just pushed it out of mind, saying that it was a lack of understanding on my part. There was an answer, I just didn't know it. I found no answer of course, because there is none, so I tried to tell myself that it was beyond my comprehension. I was afraid to question too much, because doubts lead to disbelief, and there is nothing worse than disbelief. Disbelief gets you tortured for eternity. It's a vicious circle. But of course it's perpetuated by fear, when you look at it from the outside, it's obvious why it is the case.

    I'm going to invent a religion - I make several bold claims, of which I have no solid evidence. So I bribe you. Believe it, do as I say, and you can have... anything. Beautiful virgin women, great palaces, food and drink to die for and, what everyone so desires, eternal life. But after death, so you cannot falsify my promise. And if you don't do as I say, I will torture you. With fire millions of times hotter than the sun. With biting snakes, and puss and blood to drink, replenishing your skin everytime it is burned. But why should you believe me? That is not for you to question. Either believe, and do what I say, or don't believe and be sent to hell forever, and ever, and ever more. If you have doubts about my truthfulness, ignore them, trust me, there are answers, I just won't give you to them. If you allow yourself to doubt too much, you will lose faith, and hell is your doom. So just blindly follow, accept it, for I am the invisible God's messenger. I, of all people, have been chosen to deliver this message, God works through me, and He has told you to obey me.

    Islam is born, and 1 billion people today follow the whims of a 7th century fraud because they dare not question and they dare not surrender their belief in a lie. Hell is definitely the most evil, and probably the most powerful, invention man has forged.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #65 - June 05, 2011, 11:05 PM

    But back to the questions... um, where were we. Ah yeah, mercy. People often confuse the concepts of justice with mercy, but they are opposites. Justice is the meting out of punishment for a crime (or reward for good), and mercy is the forbearance of a crime. Allah is limitless, and can not be affected or limited by anything. Hence it would follow that his attributes too are unlimited. But perfect justice and infinite mercy are mutually-exclusive. So either 1) Allah is limited, 2) Allah is not just, 3) Allah is not merciful, 4) Allah does not exist, because he cannot. Which is it?
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #66 - June 05, 2011, 11:13 PM

    Wow great post! Maybe I should be asking you a few questions?

  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #67 - June 05, 2011, 11:18 PM

    Go ahead.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #68 - June 05, 2011, 11:22 PM

    Okay what do you say to the claim of that God should exist to show Justice to people such as Hitler, Stalin, etc? As with all the poor people that ever lived.

    Why would the Prophet make such a claim up if he was illiterate? He wasn't much for gaining materialistic gains as well. Also after being prosecuted and attacked by he's own tribe why would he continue to preach a false claim? Thanks in advance.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #69 - June 05, 2011, 11:24 PM

    popcorn

    Thread sneaker

    Oh and welcome Eternity! Seems like you've already locked horns with Prince.

    07:54 <harakaat>: you must be jema
    07:54 <harakaat>: considering how annoying you are
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #70 - June 05, 2011, 11:45 PM

    Okay what do you say to the claim of that God should exist to show Justice to people such as Hitler, Stalin, etc? As with all the poor people that ever lived.


    What is, is not neccesarily what should be, and vice versa.

    The truth, unfortunately, is not subject to desire. So whether we want that to be the case, or whether we feel that would be ideal, makes not an iota of difference to what is the case, what is true.

    Quote
    Why would the Prophet make such a claim up if he was illiterate? He wasn't much for gaining materialistic gains as well. Also after being prosecuted and attacked by he's own tribe why would he continue to preach a false claim? Thanks in advance.


    I have my own ideas about why he did what he did, not provable of course. I think he wanted to unite arabia (doesn't the story go that he went to cave Hira because he was disenchated by the number of different belief systems in Makkah?), hence he did, at first, accept Jews and Christians, and claimed that their prophets were his prophets too, and their god was his god. You would have heard of the Stanic Verses incident, where he sent a messenger to tell the pagan tribes of Makkah that their goddesses were daughters of allah, until he realised that this went against his core beliefs, at which point he sent another messenger, claiming that the devil had misled him. But he found a way to appease the pagan tribes anyway, by claiming that their place of worship/market, where they kept their idols, was really god's house, and that he was going to switch the direction of prayer from jerusalem to the kaa'bah.

    He succeeded in uniting the various tribes of Arabia into one powerful force, and of course he was richly rewarded for it. He could have any woman he wanted. So he took 9 of them, + slave girls. He took more than his fair share of war booty and had everyone at his feet. What elsecould you want? Things are obviously more complicatd than this, I don't think he was completely devoid of morals and I think he may have honestly believed parts of it, but there is no doubt that he lied too. And as they say, power corrupts, and he certainly was corrupted by it. Islam went from the religion of peace to the religion of the sword and genocide. 800 men and boys executed for a crime they didn't commit. The women and girls enslaved, raped, and sold. Whatever his motivations, the outcome is not God's.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #71 - June 06, 2011, 12:00 AM

    Interesting piece of information. Duly noted.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #72 - June 06, 2011, 12:01 AM

    Hey hey guys this is our introduction forum. Just because he's Muslims doesn't mean we should immediately grill him with our own dissatisfactions with Islam and religion. Let's be polite Smiley and keep this thread a warm welcome. make a debate thread on another section. We keep scaring away all of our Muslim members.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #73 - June 06, 2011, 12:09 AM

    Hi Eternity,
    I see you have already answered my favourite question to Muslims. i.e. "Do you believe in evolution?"  grin12
    Here comes my other questions:
    - Do you consider prophet Mohamed to be the perfect creation whose example should be followed by all Muslims till the end of time?
    - Do you believe in Sharia (hudood) punishments like chopping off limbs for stealing, or stoning to death for adultery etc?
    - What positive evidence is there proving that Islam is the one true religion and that a personal God exists?

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #74 - June 06, 2011, 12:24 AM

    First of all Hi nice to meet you.

    - Do you consider prophet Mohamed to be the perfect creation whose example should be followed by all Muslims till the end of time?


    Yes as he's Sunnah is followed very closely in Islam.

    - Do you believe in Sharia (hudood) punishments like chopping off limbs for stealing, or stoning to death for adultery etc?


    What is Sharia? I don't quite understand what you're saying here.

    What positive evidence is there proving that Islam is the one true religion and that a personal God exists?


    Well there's many reasons I think. One being is how the Big Bang theory pretty much correlates with how the universe was made in the Quran. There are quite a lot more but that's something I like to come back to quite a lot.

    @Sakura02

    Nice to meet you! Cool to see you like Naruto as well.



  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #75 - June 06, 2011, 12:31 AM

    Eternity -

    Please provide specific examples of what you think is positive evidence for Islam.

    I'm aware of what you are referring to, but I want you to see how silly the claim is that the qur'an contains scientific miracles.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #76 - June 06, 2011, 12:45 AM

    Fine

    Quote
    And the heaven We built with Our own powers (aydin) and indeed We go on expanding it - 51:48


    This agrees with how the Universe is expanding. You can read more about it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space

    Most comes from this site. http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_4_section_5.html
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #77 - June 06, 2011, 01:02 AM

    Yes as he's Sunnah is followed very closely in Islam.

    Do you think the fact that he had sex with 9 yr old Aisha is something Muslims today should emulate?

    What is Sharia? I don't quite understand what you're saying here.

    Well, I thought my question was self-explanatory.  OK, if you didn't know what Shariah is, I'll let you read up on it first.

    Well there's many reasons I think. One being is how the Big Bang theory pretty much correlates with how the universe was made in the Quran. There are quite a lot more but that's something I like to come back to quite a lot.

    Come on, bro/sis.  Is it really specific enough to be an impressive prediction?  Muhamed also said that humans came from Adam who was created by God from clay (and Eve from Adam's ribs), but you choose to take that metaphorically.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #78 - June 06, 2011, 03:08 AM

    Quote
    Do you think the fact that he had sex with 9 yr old Aisha is something Muslims today should emulate?


    This is a on going debate. Can't take one side as fact yet.

    Quote
    Come on, bro/sis.  Is it really specific enough to be an impressive prediction?  Muhamed also said that humans came from Adam who was created by God from clay (and Eve from Adam's ribs), but you choose to take that metaphorically.


    I don't take it metaphorically.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #79 - June 06, 2011, 12:10 PM

    "And the heaven We built with Our own powers (aydin) and indeed We go on expanding it - 51:47"

    Wala habibi! Let's look at the Arabic verse in question.

    وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ

    Now, the key word in question is موسعون (moosi3oon). That is the ism al-faa3il (the "doer") of "أوسع" "awsa3a". Now "awsa3a" is the "af3ala" verb of the root. "af3ala" verbs in Arabic morphology refer to *making* the object perform the verb (Check Paradigm إفعال here: http://www.learnarabiconline.com/paradigm-connotations.shtml).

    So "awsa3a" means "ja3ala waasi3an", "to make sth. waasi3". Without doing all this morphology stuff you can get to that just by checking the entry for "awsa3a" in Al Mu3jam al Mu7ee6 (which you can do online if you wish). Now, what does "waasi3" mean? It simply means "wide" or "big". (Again, check Al Mu7ee6 if you don't believe me. Though this is a fairly commonly used adjective in Arabic. You might've already learned it.)

    So, what is the verse actually saying?

    "And the heaven, we have built it with hands (literal meaning) and we are those who make (it) big."

    The more intensive verb "wassa3a" (from fa33ala) would have meant to make something expand.

    "The تفعيل paradigm is also commonly used for expressing intensity. For example, the simple verb قطع means “to cut”, whereas the enhanced form قطّع means “to chop up”."

    That's from the site I gave you about Arabic morphology.

    Pickthall translated it best when he wrote:

    We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).

    Anyway, what's odd about the verse is that there's no object for "moosi3oon" (it should have said something like "laha lamoosi3oon". Of course, this could mean that the object has simply been omitted but the word still refers to "as-samaa2" (heaven) (something you can do in Arabic poetry). But it could also mean, as the Tafsir al Jalalayn exegesis states:

    { وإنا لموسعون } قادرون يقال: أد الرجل يئيد قوي، وأوسع الرجل: صار ذا سعة وقوة .

    that "moosi3oon" is an adjective that means "capable".

    What this shows is how flexible the Arabic language is and how a single word could mean many, many different things. But it also shows how ambiguous the Quran is (and coming from God, the last thing you want is ambiguity), and that the verse as understood by Islamic scholars before the whole "scientific miracles" craze in the 70s or so did not refer to "expansion". In Arabic, "moosi3" is a person who makes something big, and not a person who keeps on making something big (expanding it, MUWASSI3).

    tl;dr version: No miracle here. Don't take translations at face value and always consult an Arabic dictionary.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #80 - June 06, 2011, 12:33 PM

    @Eternity:
    This is a on going debate. Can't take one side as fact yet.

    I'm not being biased about Aisha's age.  The majority of Muslim scholars believe she got married to Muhammad at the age of 6 and the marriage was consummated when she was 9 years old.  How old do you think she was and do you have any stronger Hadiths to back up your claim?

    I don't take it metaphorically.

    How do you take it?  How do you square your belief in evolution with the Adam-and-Eve creation story?

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #81 - June 06, 2011, 12:51 PM

    @ateapotist:
    Although I can't be absolutely sure, I think Eternity is an Ahmadi-Muslim, - which would directly explain his "soft" attitude and his acceptance of evolution. His style of speaking looks remarkably similar to other Ahmadis we've seen here.

    I am also pretty sure Eternity has serious doubts about Islam, as he honestly said "I don't know." when faced with some of the fundamental illogical dogmas of Islam, like eternal punishment for a finite crime.

    I shouldn't be here. Really. Shaytan SWT deluded ALL of us. Amen.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #82 - June 06, 2011, 02:18 PM

    And the heaven We built with Our own powers (aydin) and indeed We go on expanding it - 51:48

    This agrees with how the Universe is expanding. You can read more about it here


    Uh huh, and what translation are you using? Here are the 3 most cited translators...

    Yusuf Ali:
    And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out!

    Pickthal:
    And the earth have We laid out, how gracious is the Spreader (thereof)!

    Shakir:
     And the earth, We have made it a wide extent; how well have We then spread (it) out.

    So you managed to take a 5 word verse pretty much implying that the eart is flat and it was creating by 'spreading out', and made it outline, in the vaguest possible sense, some semblance of the bare bones of the big bang theory. Where is the miracle?

    Edit: Nevermind, seems like you used the wrong citation, the verse you mean is 51:47...

    But no matter, Harakaat gave you a good enough response, I would think.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #83 - June 06, 2011, 02:23 PM

    You might want to watch this short vid demonstrating how easy it is to find miracles in any book if you start with the assumption that it contains miracles... humans are very good at seeing patterns that aren't there, anyone who has ever seen a face in a bit of toast or wallpaper can testify to this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojVn4Rgl8E8
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #84 - June 06, 2011, 04:21 PM

    @Eternity:I'm not being biased about Aisha's age.  The majority of Muslim scholars believe she got married to Muhammad at the age of 6 and the marriage was consummated when she was 9 years old.  How old do you think she was and do you have any stronger Hadiths to back up your claim?


    Well there some who say she was 16/17. But yes most believe she was 9 at marriage.

    How do you take it?  How do you square your belief in evolution with the Adam-and-Eve creation story?


    Well I believe that that Humans/animals evolve and adapt to their surrounding area and such evolve over a period that can take thousands to millions of years. I don't agree that we came from some ape though or even fish as some say.

  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #85 - June 06, 2011, 04:28 PM

    Eternity, do you believe humans share a common ancestor with other animals?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #86 - June 06, 2011, 04:36 PM

    One being is how the Big Bang theory pretty much correlates with how the universe was made in the Quran. There are quite a lot more but that's something I like to come back to quite a lot.

    Can you name a single scientific theory that was derived from Quran and later proven to be correct?
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #87 - June 06, 2011, 04:40 PM

    This is a on going debate. Can't take one side as fact yet.


    Are you serious?  Huh?

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #88 - June 06, 2011, 04:43 PM

    Eternity, do you believe humans share a common ancestor with other animals?


    I'm not sure. I'd say no though I'm not fully sure.

    Can you name a single scientific theory that was derived from Quran and later proven to be correct?


    Human Embryology was said in the Quran and later proven.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #89 - June 06, 2011, 04:59 PM

    1) The embryology in the qur'an was taken from the greeks.

    2) The embryology in the qur'an is wrong.
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