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Theme Changer

 Topic: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK

 (Read 10191 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     OP - June 09, 2011, 03:22 PM


    Good move.

    Check out the mendacity of the man from the MCB and the solicitor Aina Khan, talking about freedom to choose, when the truth is that Muslim women are coerced, browbeaten, emotionally crushed and blackmailed to deny their own rights as British citizens and be slung before a sharia court by their families and imams and communities.

    And a 5 year prison sentence if anyone misdirects any woman or man into thinking that sharia rules are not subservient to secular British law.

    This is a great message. Muslims in Britain need to hear it loud and clear.


    +++++++

    Bill limiting sharia law is motivated by 'concern for Muslim women'

    Karen McVeigh and Amelia Hill

    Islamic courts would be forced to acknowledge the primacy of English law under a bill being introduced in the House of Lords.

    The bill, proposed by Lady Cox and backed by women's rights groups and the National Secular Society, was drawn up because of "deep concerns" that Muslim women are suffering discrimination within closed sharia law councils.

    The Arbitration and Mediation Services (Equality) Bill will introduce an offence carrying a five-year jail sentence for anyone falsely claiming or implying that sharia courts or councils have legal jurisdiction over family or criminal law. The bill, which will apply to all arbitration tribunals if passed, aims to tackle discrimination, which its supporters say is inherent in the courts, by banning the sharia practice of giving woman's testimony only half the weight of men's.

    Cox said: "Equality under the law is a core value of British justice. My bill seeks to preserve that standard"

    In a similar way to Jewish Beth Din courts, sharia tribunals can make verdicts in cases involving financial and property issues which, under the 1996 Arbitration Act, are enforceable by county courts or the high court.

    The tribunals should only be deciding civil disputes but two years ago the think-tank Civitas claimed sharia courts, some 85 of which operate in Birmingham, London, Bradford and Manchester, had crossed the proper limits of their jurisdiction and were regularly giving illegal advice on marriage and divorce.

    Cox said they are increasingly ruling on family and criminal cases, including child custody and domestic violence. Jurisdiction "creep" had caused considerable suffering among women compelled to return to abusive husbands, or to give up children and property.

    Diana Nammi, of the Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organisation, said: "Women and children are very vulnerable members of the community and under sharia law they become invisible. Women and children are the most vulnerable in minority communities where religion tradition and culture has become the identity taking precedence over the human rights and women's rights that are protected under civil, UK law."

    The bill requires public bodies to inform women they have fewer legal rights if their marriage is unrecognised in English law. Cox said she had found "considerable evidence" of women, some of whom are brought to Britain speaking little English and kept ignorant of their legal rights, suffering domestic violence or unequal access to divorce, due to discriminatory decisions made. "We cannot continue to condone this situation. Many women say: 'We came to this country to escape these practices only to find the situation is worse here.' "

    Cox said she would be asking the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, who caused a row last year when he said a recognised role for sharia law seemed unavoidable, to back her bill. She said: "By appearing to condone this inherent discrimination system which is causing real suffering to women, he has failed to recognise that suffering. He is appearing to forward the acceptability and validity of Sharia law in this country."

    Keith Porteous Wood, executive director of the National Secular Society, said: "Laws should not impinge on religious freedoms, nor should courts judge on theological matters. By the same token, democratically determined and human rights compliant law must take precedence over the law of any religion."

    Aina Khan, a solicitor who advises on sharia law, said: "It is good in parts. I would like to see best practice in sharia councils, like in the Beth Din model and I would like some legislation. I don't want somebody opening up a sharia board in their front room. Of course sex discrimination laws must apply. But there are some alarmist tones in the bill. Where she goes wrong is assuming that some sort of misogyny and discrimination goes on. Eighty per cent of its users are women."

    Khurshid Drabu, adviser on constitutional affairs to the Muslim Council of Britain, said: "Bills of this kind don't help anybody. They don't appear to understand that we live in a free country where people can make free choices. Yet again, it appears to be a total misunderstanding of the concept that underpins these arbitration councils. Sharia councils operate under consent. If there is a woman who suffers as a result of a decision by one of these councils a woman is free to go to the British courts."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/jun/08/sharia-bill-lords-muslim-women


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #1 - June 09, 2011, 03:36 PM

    Good stuff. I hope it passes.

    So the MCB guy is apparently fine with people making choices, as long as they don't make fully informed choices. Good old Islamologic.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #2 - June 09, 2011, 04:28 PM

    I am betting my life on this bill. If it passes, the UK will be closer to being a fair and just country.

     Afro
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #3 - June 09, 2011, 05:23 PM


    It is a massive step forward, if it passes and can be enforced.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #4 - June 09, 2011, 06:53 PM

     great great banana dance banana dance



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #5 - June 09, 2011, 07:02 PM

    It is a massive step forward, if it passes and can be enforced.


    It deserves recognition and publicity.  Afro
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #6 - June 09, 2011, 07:14 PM

    This bill will not do shit to improve the life's of Muslim women who go to these courts in the first place or are forced to go to these courts. The sharia courts are a symbolic tool of reinforcement of the faith, many women understand that these courts do not have legal powers which abrogate the secular penal code of the country, but despite this still accept the rules based on a symbolic religious bondage. Many of the women will feel that the rules are ordained by a perfect legal system (Islamic Sharia law) and it would be a violation of their religious beliefs if they do not follow the rulings of the court, or on some cases the women will be pressured by family and community members to accept and obey the ruling by the sharia court, if not they will be ostracized from the community, and excommunicated from Islam.

    If the government had any sense and credibility in taking action all religious arbitration courts should have been banned!   
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #7 - June 09, 2011, 07:50 PM

    Quote
    If the government had any sense and credibility in taking action all religious arbitration courts should have been banned!

       

    I don't disagree with that.

    Quote
    but despite this still accept the rules based on a symbolic religious bondage.


    ....or are coerced by family, religious, cultural pressures. In the absence of abolition, recognition of this pressure and these issues is good. The religionists won't have it all their own way.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #8 - June 09, 2011, 10:04 PM

    Why is it even legal to have alternative courts? You can't have unauthorized courts like that in the US or at least not my knowledge. Why isn't there ONE (The British law)  universal law/court being accepted and enforced. This should be a non-issue.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #9 - June 09, 2011, 10:26 PM

    There is ONE British law, and under that law all parties to a civil dispute can choose by mutual consent to seek arbitration under any set of rules they like, as long as the rules don't conflict with British law.  If you want your civil suit settled under the rules of the local crochet club, or the football association, or trade union, or whatever, then that's your right.  Why should an exception be made for Sharia courts?

    The problem here is not UK law, its sharia courts overstepping the rights they are allowed under the Arbitration Act of 1995.  So I approve of this measure to rein them back in to the same standards that every other arbitration body is bound by.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #10 - June 09, 2011, 10:41 PM

    What Cheetah said ^^^

    As long as they police this rigorously. It has the benefit of really drawing a line in the sand for Muslims who persist on this abuse.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #11 - June 09, 2011, 11:13 PM

    There is ONE British law, and under that law all parties to a civil dispute can choose by mutual consent to seek arbitration under any set of rules they like, as long as the rules don't conflict with British law.  If you want your civil suit settled under the rules of the local crochet club, or the football association, or trade union, or whatever, then that's your right.  Why should an exception be made for Sharia courts?

    The problem here is not UK law, its sharia courts overstepping the rights they are allowed under the Arbitration Act of 1995.  So I approve of this measure to rein them back in to the same standards that every other arbitration body is bound by.


    I second this.
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #12 - June 10, 2011, 06:19 PM

    Why is it even legal to have alternative courts? You can't have unauthorized courts like that in the US or at least not my knowledge. Why isn't there ONE (The British law)  universal law/court being accepted and enforced. This should be a non-issue.


    Totally agree, get rid of them altogether.

    Arthur.
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #13 - June 11, 2011, 11:38 AM

    Get rid of them! get rid if the trade unions also while we are at it. Ban all trade unions, and arrest their leaders. I voted for the conservatives but they are going to easy on the trade unions, and a stupid open broader policy, pull out of anything dealing with the European union.
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #14 - June 11, 2011, 11:58 AM

    ^ sarcasm?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #15 - June 11, 2011, 01:19 PM

    Hang on a second someone educate me on this.. (I'm American but I'm under the assumption that our judiciary systems are pretty similar, if I'm wrong correct me,)


    I thought civil courts were always acting under a British law or rather ideals, but they were just separate courts.
    What I'm having a hard time figuring out. Why should there be a civil court, with their own interpretations of let's say for how a man and woman divide their finances after divorce when there is already principles established by the British law for how that should be dealt with. For these Sharia courts, it's more of a human rights issue. Why should there be courts that go against the British sense of justice and discriminate against individuals because they are 'civil' court cases. Why are there separate judges and lawyers enforcing their own views of how justice should be done, that of which goes against what the British judiciary system stand for? I always thought civil courts or not, if you are a lawyer or judge you must be taught and schooled, the ways of the British law, and British sense of justice and I apply them in your career, civil court or not.


    I think the 5 year sentence is too light, I mean it's something. But it might do more harm than good with people being mistreated under the Sharia courts AND being threatened if talk about it, as the party who misguides them might go to jail as a result. What if it's your own family? Would you send your family to jail, I don't think so? It's an honest step, but it's too little. Human rights is a serious thing and should not be taken for granted or lightly. Britain needs to grow a pair and grab the bull by the horns.  

    That's just my take on it.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #16 - June 11, 2011, 01:31 PM

    You're not understanding it correctly, Sakura.  British law has always allowed for parties to a civil dispute to seek mediation from an arbitration body, and then come to court with an agreed upon solution which the judge then reviews and either rubber stamps, or if its found to breach any part of the law, throw out.

    That's all these so called Sharia "courts" are - arbitration bodies, with no power to impose any ruling other than a suggested solution which has to be within the ordinary laws of the land, and must then be reviewed by a judge before it has any legal force.  The problem here is not British law, its individuals involved in these Sharia courts taking a mile when they're given an inch.  This law is designed to rein them back in, without being heavy handed towards all the people who have stuck to the rules all these years.  I think they have got the balance right here, and if it doesn't work they can always tighten the law even further.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #17 - June 11, 2011, 01:36 PM

    Ohh ok that makes sense. So why do some of the Sharia laws pass if they are just mediators? Don't they do through some kind of check first before enforced?

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #18 - June 11, 2011, 01:43 PM

    They don't pass laws, they just give suggested solutions to a dispute.  Some of them are over stepping the mark by misrepresenting themselves to the people who seek their help, pretending that they have more power than they do, and not telling people that their decision should be reviewed by a civil judge before it becomes legal.  If they're caught doing that now, they can face up to five years in jail.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #19 - June 11, 2011, 04:15 PM

    ^ sarcasm?


    No.
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #20 - June 11, 2011, 05:35 PM

    Quite an insightful post by Cheetah.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #21 - June 11, 2011, 06:48 PM

    They don't pass laws, they just give suggested solutions to a dispute.  Some of them are over stepping the mark by misrepresenting themselves to the people who seek their help, pretending that they have more power than they do, and not telling people that their decision should be reviewed by a civil judge before it becomes legal.  If they're caught doing that now, they can face up to five years in jail.

    I'm not sure that is the case.
    Normal ADR (alternative dispute resolution) can be and is binding - and is standard in various forms of contract - insurance, package holiday, construction, rent review etc.

    Effectively, there is generally a contract saying "we agree to be bound by the decision of Mr. X". If there is a contract, one can't really back out of it. This is especially the case in countries that follow the UNCITRAL model law. There are limits for violations of constitutional rights - but that is about it.  (England has something similar to the UNCITRAL).

    "Mr. X" could be the local Imam for example.
    Unless there is a specific exemption in English law for domestic situations, then if the parties agree before going into meet Mr. X that they will be bound by his decision, then his decision is not merely something that need only be rubber stamped by the Court.
    Rather it is binding unless it is a violation of constitutional rights - which is a much higher standard.

  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #22 - June 11, 2011, 06:49 PM

    That's all these so called Sharia "courts" are - arbitration bodies, with no power to impose any ruling other than a suggested solution which has to be within the ordinary laws of the land, and must then be reviewed by a judge before it has any legal force.

    Are you sure that the above is true?

    "Rulings issued by a network of five sharia courts are enforceable with the full power of the judicial system, through the county courts or High Court.

    Previously, the rulings of sharia courts in Britain could not be enforced, and depended on voluntary compliance among Muslims.

    It has now emerged that sharia courts with these powers have been set up in London, Birmingham, Bradford and Manchester with the network’s headquarters in Nuneaton, Warwickshire. Two more courts are being planned for Glasgow and Edinburgh.

    Sheikh Faiz-ul-Aqtab Siddiqi, whose Muslim Arbitration Tribunal runs the courts, said he had taken advantage of a clause in the Arbitration Act 1996.

    Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case.

    Siddiqi said that in a recent inheritance dispute handled by the court in Nuneaton, the estate of a Midlands man was divided between three daughters and two sons.

    The judges on the panel gave the sons twice as much as the daughters, in accordance with sharia. Had the family gone to a normal British court, the daughters would have got equal amounts."


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4749183.ece
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #23 - June 11, 2011, 07:02 PM

    @Hupla

    Arbitration bodies are not allowed to hand down rulings which contravene the laws of the land, if they try to that would be an illegal contract and not binding on any party.  I also don't understand what you mean when you say a decision is not merely rubber stamped by the courts, but rather is legally binding.  A decison which has been rubber stamped by a civil court IS legally binding, that's the whole point of the court.


    Quote from: Kenan
    Are you sure that the above is true?


    Yes. 

    The example you give is misleading because its the law in Britain that anyone can leave their property any way they like, so that particular Sharia ruling doesn't break any secular laws. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #24 - June 11, 2011, 07:21 PM

    The "rubber stamp" sentence I wrote is a little garbled.

    The decision is not merely a "suggested" solution - it is binding in and of itself. It is enforceable by the Courts if it is not complied with.

    Provided it is in order, there are very slim grounds for reviewing an arbitration decision and very little the Court can do about it.
    The main grounds are a serious violation of constitutional rights, or misconduct by the arbitrator. It might also be possible to argue misrepresentation, duress or non est factum and other contractual stuff.

    That is about it.  

    Even if the Court thinks the decision is unfair, or it wouldn't have reached a similar decision - it can't do anything about it.

  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #25 - June 11, 2011, 07:26 PM

    Quote
    The "rubber stamp" sentence I wrote is a little garbled.

    The decision is not merely a "suggested" solution - it is binding in and of itself. It is enforceable by the Courts if it is not complied with.


    Yes, but only if both parties have agreed to be bound by its decision and only if the ruling is not contrary to the law of the land.

    Quote
    The main grounds are a serious violation of constitutional rights, or misconduct by the arbitrator. It might also be possible to argue misrepresentation, duress or non est factum and other contractual stuff.


    I think that's the main reason for this new law, to rein in the duress and misrepresentation which is being engaged in by some Sharia "courts".

    Quote
    Even if the Court thinks the decision is unfair, or it wouldn't have reached a similar decision - it can't do anything about it.


    You're right, in some cases the ruling is perfectly legal and the court can't over turn  it.  Kenan's example is one of those cases, and that's the risk people take when they go into arbitration. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #26 - June 11, 2011, 07:38 PM

    Yes, but only if both parties have agreed to be bound by its decision and only if the ruling is not contrary to the law of the land.

    The "contrary to the law of the land" bit is the first problem.
    As I said, only serious violations of constitutional rights would constitute such a thing - it is a high threshold.

    You're right, in some cases the ruling is perfectly legal and the court can't over turn  it.  Kenan's example is one of those cases, and that's the risk people take when they go into arbitration. 

    In effectively all cases the ruling is perfectly legal - that's the problem.

    The real risk is people (in particular women) agreeing to go to Sharia arbitration without being fully aware that their rights are seriously curtailed and not realising that it is not possible to appeal a decision - even if it is unfair.
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #27 - June 11, 2011, 07:44 PM

    That's the whole point of this new law,  to make it easier to seek redress and make Sharia arbitrators liable if they abuse their power.  Its a rare piece of good news, not a reason for people to be huffing and saying Britain needs to grow a pair, and all that blah.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #28 - June 11, 2011, 09:22 PM

    How effective will this new proposed law be exactly?
    For the women it it already causes a misery for, what percentage do you feel this law will help them?

    I think is a good move forward. But I dislike the skillful piece of politics that is required to tame the horrendous issue for something that should be banned to start with.
  • Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
     Reply #29 - June 11, 2011, 09:25 PM

    Who knows?  If its not very effective in dealing with the problem, it can always be changed again. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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