HighOctane:
So being illiberal is the only way to protect the liberal values that we have in the West? I dont personally get how you can say you support secularism and human rights and in the same time limit religious freedom - just because its Islam or Muslims? How do you harmonize your support of these values with banning the burka, banning Islamic (student) organizations and etc?
Al-Ma`arri, I don't consider myself illiberal. I consider myself to have a decent filter, while being open to all forms of argument. My opinions have changed many times and they may well do in the future, but they have reached a plateau for about a year.
I support religious freedom - but I think it is essential to limit those that have negative consequential impacts on society - whatever the doctrine. I even advocate how religion (in terms of shared faith, hope, unity) is an evolutionary advantage to the humans. But this is another discussion.
The harmonization is there if you are happy to consider certain points of view rather than buy into someone else's
straw man argument. My thoughts on the burka are already written and can be searched on this forum (see the discussion with TheRationalizer).
As for ISOCs, I think I've pointed out why they need banning but I'll elaborate. Don't get me wrong - if they they can prove they are sensible and are trying to be decent and respectful - I welcome that change. What I don't like is the ability for them to have such backward values and use the liberal shield to forward political Islam and a backwards set of values that promotes more division (to the west), hatred (to Jews/West/US), fear (about the West) and even acts of terrorism. Let's be honest about these things.
That is why so many Presidents of ISOCs at British Universities have got themselves into trouble. Abdulmutallab, President of UCL’s ISOC who incinerated his undies. Kafeel Ahmed, President of Queen’s University Belfast’s ISOC who tried to blow up Tiger Tiger and who also set fire to himself, fatally, in Glasgow Airport. Yassin Nassari, President of the University of Westminster ISOC, with the Hamas style missile blueprints.
We can now add to the list, Waheed Zaman, who along with Ibrahim Savant, Arafat Khan have now been found guilty of Conspiracy to Murder. Three others have already been convicted.
http://hurryupharry.org/2010/07/08/another-isoc-president-convicted-of-terrorism-offences/If there was a non-Muslim group behaving the same way - I'd like to see that group also banned. It is not an ISOC/Islam thing per se - but let's be honest about the influence of negative Islam at
ISOCs. They should be banned for a good year - send a message of, "Sort yourselves out, and you may activate your society again". When when they do come back from being dormant, they should be well monitored, I think.
If the ballet society was causing issues, I'd ban the ballet society. If the Sci-Fi society was causing such issues, I'd ban the sci-fi society. If the Swedish society was
threatening university newspaper reporters, I would hope senior powers would deal with them the same way.
Consider, also Quilliam Foundations report:
http://cifwatch.com/tag/quilliam-foundation/The Quilliam Foundation has issued a new report on how a mainstream academic institution in the UK can become incubators for extremist, intolerant forms of political thought – in this case, radical Islam.
Full report:
http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/images/stories/pdfs/radicalisation-on-british-university-campuses.pdf?dm_i=JI3,9VVO,2Q60WK,QMSG,1
Topic: Truth is offensive and it scares Muslim followers