Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →
↑ ↓
CEMB → Forum → Life, The Universe & Everything → Religions and Gods → Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts

Do humans have needed kno...
Today at 02:37 AM
New Britain
Yesterday at 01:10 PM
Lights on the way
by akay
October 18, 2025, 09:54 AM
Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
October 15, 2025, 10:20 AM
اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
October 14, 2025, 11:52 AM
Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
October 07, 2025, 09:50 AM
What's happened to the fo...
October 06, 2025, 11:58 AM
Kashmir endgame
October 04, 2025, 10:05 PM
الحبيب من يشبه اكثر؟؟؟
by akay
September 24, 2025, 11:55 AM
Muslim grooming gangs sti...
September 20, 2025, 07:39 PM
Jesus mythicism
by zeca
September 13, 2025, 10:59 PM
Orientalism - Edward Said
by zeca
August 22, 2025, 07:41 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!

 (Read 37747 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 7 8 910 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #240 - July 12, 2011, 06:50 PM
    I should trust my instinct more.

    I should have left it at "there is a point where it becomes impossible to have any meaningful conversation with someone who is too philosophical for philosophical sake."

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #241 - July 12, 2011, 07:06 PM
    Quote from: z10 on July 12, 2011, 03:52 PM
    I am surprised you are saying this. Hamza kept to exactly the same definition of 'miracle' throughout the entire video while everyone around him was offended that they couldn't find his definition in any dictionary. At this point, instead of being adults and discussing the merits of the various definitions and settling on one that everyone can agree to, the oh-so-rational atheists decided to cry foul and refuse the discussion unless the definition in their dictionary was used.
    That, I may add, is exactly the same situation as a religious priest refusing to answer a question if he doesn't find it is in the same terms as it is in answered within his own guidebooks, be they dictionaries or religious texts.


    My recollection was they were annoyed that he had decided to use a non standard definition without informing anyone first.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #242 - July 12, 2011, 07:09 PM
    Yes, and then AronRa said unless he can find a dictionary that agrees with him, he will refuse to accept his subsitute. In other words, not by the quality of his thought, but by the piece of paper it is written upon, is Hamza judged.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #243 - July 12, 2011, 07:15 PM
    Quote from: z10 on July 12, 2011, 07:09 PM
    Yes, and then AronRa said unless he can find a dictionary that agrees with him, he will refuse to accept his subsitute. In other words, not by the quality of his thought, but by the piece of paper it is written upon, is Hamza judged.


    Yeah, well I suppose you don't just get to redefine the meaning of words on a whim and not get other participants to agree with that usage in advance. It's just a way of saying "No, I won't allow you to use non dictionary definitions at all otherwise you are going to continue to use alternate meanings throughout the rest of the conversation without telling us....like you just did and wasted everyone's time"

    I don't see a problem with not being willing to give a word with a well established meaning a completely new meaning if he doesn't want to, if Hamza can't argue his point without changing the meanings of words then his argument must be piss poor.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #244 - July 12, 2011, 07:17 PM
    I refer you to reply #236 above for why Hamza was right about asking for a new definition. Besides which, I have no interest in defending the argument Hamza made with his own definition, all I am saying is that it was unfortunate the home team didn't even bother to listen to his criticism but rejected it on the basis that it wasn't found in a dictionary.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #245 - July 12, 2011, 07:22 PM
    Nobody should have to grant an irregular definition of a word that smuggles in more than we are willing to commit to.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #246 - July 12, 2011, 07:24 PM
    The definition that the atheists provided was 'a miracle is a suspension of physical laws.' Can you see that if we have incomplete information of all physical laws then that definition is worthless?
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #247 - July 12, 2011, 07:31 PM
    It's the definition I'd go by. A direct breach of known natural law. It's the best way to describe the phenomenon we refer to when we commonly use the word miracle.

    Regardless, it's a better definition of miracle than 'something that cannot arise from the universe', which is just irritatingly vague.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #248 - July 12, 2011, 07:33 PM
    Really Ishina? So 200 years ago you would have agreed that the phenomena of quantum mechanics were a miracle, but today you would say they are part of natural laws only because we have now a better understanding? What if we see something as a miracle today but can explain it perfectly well in 200 years time? Do you see how this is an inadequate way of defining a miracle?
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #249 - July 12, 2011, 07:37 PM
    We are not talking about quantum mechanics. We are talking about men walking on water and splitting the moon in half.

    Be reasonable.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #250 - July 12, 2011, 07:42 PM
    Just wanna interject that it's arguable QM is more counter-intuitive. Carry on...
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #251 - July 12, 2011, 07:45 PM
    Yes, and what if a method is discovered for us to walk on water and jesus was just genius enough to invent it 2000 years ago?
    I think for something to be a miracle, it has to be a miracle for all time. I also think that 'suspension of physical laws' is a good way of putting it but unfortunately, that definition won't hold until we know all physical laws and can make a true statement about miracles without having to say 'as far as we know today'. While that would be the ideal situation, we are not in it, nor are we ever likely to be in it, as, after all, science is not in the business of giving us timeless gems of knowledge but time-dependent predictions that will always be further improved.

    And I agree with Prince's interjection. QM states that particles can be at two places at once, there can be instant communication between two areas monstrously far apart and many other incredible forms of behaviour. I have even read a thesis stating that it would be better to think of anti-particles as travelling backwards in time as that would simplify our equations a lot more. These are miracles to the uninitiated.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #252 - July 12, 2011, 07:56 PM
    This is all very fascinating. What it has to do with what Tortoise is talking about I have no clue.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #253 - July 12, 2011, 08:25 PM
    Quote from: z10 on July 12, 2011, 07:45 PM
    Yes, and what if a method is discovered for us to walk on water and jesus was just genius enough to invent it 2000 years ago?

    But that's not a 'miracle' nor is it a suspension of physical laws.

    It's simply application of technology and technological knowledge onto a problem.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #254 - July 12, 2011, 08:44 PM
    I think that's exactly his point, though. Will let him answer.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #255 - July 12, 2011, 09:12 PM
    And what if Superman really can fly?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #256 - July 12, 2011, 09:15 PM
    Maybe Jesus was a member of a technologically advanced alien race that stupid natives mistook for what they considered to be a messiah?

    Kinda like in "ST TNG - Who watches the watchers
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6NPq_kPSUM
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #257 - July 12, 2011, 11:23 PM

    Hahahahahahhaha   Cheesy  just seen the video! it made me laugh, The atheist who these muslims were bitterin with their rubbish seemed drained probably thinking "damn idiots I have to pull up now!"
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #258 - July 13, 2011, 06:11 AM
    Quote from: Kenan on July 12, 2011, 08:25 PM
    But that's not a 'miracle' nor is it a suspension of physical laws.

    It's simply application of technology and technological knowledge onto a problem.


    Yes, as Prince said, that was my point. It would have been seen as a suspension of physical laws at the time but not later when technology could have allowed. The same for any miracles that are reported today. We should have a better way of conceptualizing a 'miracle' if we want to speak of them without making reference to our temporary understanding of the world.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #259 - July 13, 2011, 11:43 AM
    A miracle is simply something impossible.

    And humans in the Bronze Age knew exactly what was possible and what wasn't. whistling2
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #260 - July 13, 2011, 11:44 AM
    Quote from: posthuman on July 13, 2011, 11:43 AM
    A miracle is simply something impossible.

    And humans in the Bronze Age knew exactly what was possible and what wasn't. whistling2


    But as soon as you see something happen does that not prove to you it is somehow possible?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #261 - July 13, 2011, 11:49 AM
    I think he/she meant possible by the (usual) physics of our Universe.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #262 - July 13, 2011, 11:53 AM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on July 13, 2011, 11:49 AM
    I think he/she meant possible by the physics of our Universe.


    According to historical known physics of the universe nothing moves unless something pushes it, planets move, something must be pushing them, therefore god exists. We later worked out our understanding of physics was wrong.

    Is not observing a law of physics being broken which is the more credible conclusion?  That a super agent is capable of breaking the laws of physics, or there are exceptions to what we think are rules which we have not yet discovered?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #263 - July 13, 2011, 11:58 AM
    Isn't that the exact point that z10 has been trying to make for 2 pages?
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #264 - July 13, 2011, 12:09 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on July 13, 2011, 11:58 AM
    Isn't that the exact point that z10 has been trying to make for 2 pages?


    Yes.  Did I manage to make it in less? Smiley
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #265 - July 13, 2011, 12:11 PM
     Cheesy

    Depends on the reader I guess Tongue
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #266 - July 13, 2011, 12:18 PM
    There is the Arthur C Clarke quote about any significantly advanced technology can appear as magic which is a good example of this.

    My opinion though is more simple.  Was the event beyond the known ability of humans at the time?  If yes then something interesting is supposed to have happened.  It might not necessarily convince you of god, but at least it is possibly super human.

    I can't think of an example though.  Walking on water and raising the alleged dead could be achieved quite easily.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #267 - July 13, 2011, 12:22 PM
    I was thinking about the Clarke quote too^

    How about turning an inanimate object into a snake?
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #268 - July 13, 2011, 12:28 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on July 13, 2011, 12:22 PM
    How about turning an inanimate object into a snake?


    That wouldn't be enough for me, pretty sure that wouldn't be too hard.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #269 - July 13, 2011, 12:30 PM
    It wouldn't? If I see my keyboard slowly turning into a serpent in front of my eyes... that would seem pretty 'supernatural'.
  • Previous page 1 ... 7 8 910 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »