Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Do humans have needed kno...
Today at 09:24 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
Yesterday at 11:23 PM

Is Iran/Persia going to b...
by zeca
Yesterday at 10:20 PM

News From Syria
Yesterday at 05:58 PM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
Yesterday at 10:47 AM

الحبيب من يشبه اكثر؟؟؟
by akay
June 14, 2025, 10:20 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
June 13, 2025, 06:51 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
June 12, 2025, 09:49 AM

New Britain
June 06, 2025, 10:16 AM

ماذا يحدث هذه الايام؟؟؟.
by akay
June 02, 2025, 10:25 AM

What happens in these day...
June 02, 2025, 09:27 AM

What's happened to the fo...
June 01, 2025, 10:43 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Evidence that the Quran has changed

 (Read 20563 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Evidence that the Quran has changed
     OP - July 14, 2011, 02:43 PM

    Someone on facebook posted this:

    Quote
    Muhammad used to forget verses:
    Sahih Bukhari Vol.6, Bk. 61, No 558 Narrated Aisha: Allah’s Apostle heard a man reciting the Quran at night, and said, May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such-and-such Suras, which I was caused to forget.


    I'd like to make collection of hadiths which suggest things such as

    1: Muhammad used to forget verses, so how can we be sure they were all preserved? (As above)
    2: Some verses from the Quran are missing
    3: Some verses seem to be different to how someone remembers them
    4: Muhammad being influenced by people around him and changing the words (like the blind man who could not fight)
    5: Any hadiths on the collation of the Quran by Abu Bakr or Uthman.

    Please post any you have Smiley

    Thanks

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #1 - July 14, 2011, 02:46 PM

    Good points, I have always wondered how muslims claim that the only way the Quran was preserved and passed down was by people memorising it, but do not see how that leaves them open to human error and memory loss? Thus making the words of the Quran less credible.

  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #2 - July 14, 2011, 02:49 PM

    In Sahih Muslim Volume 7 (commentary of al-Nawawi) in the Book of al-Zakah, about the virtue of being satisfied with whatever God gives and about urging people to have that virtue, pages 139-140, reported that Abu al-Aswad reported that his father said: "Abu Musa al-Ash'ari invited the Qur'an readers of Basra. Three hundred readers responded to his invitation. He told them: You are the readers and the choice of the people of Basra. Recite the Qur'an and do not neglect it. Otherwise, a long time may elapse and your hearts will be hardened as the hearts of those who came before you were hardened." "We used to read a chapter from the Qur'an similar to Bara'ah in length and seriousness, but I forgot it. I can remember from that chapter only the following words: 'Should a son of Adam own two valleys full of wealth, he would seek a third valley, and nothing would fill Ibn Adam's abdomen but the soil. "'We used to read a chapter similar to Musabbihat and I forgot it. I only remember out of it the following: "'Oh you who believe, why do you say what you do not do? Thus a testimony will be written on your necks and you will be questioned about it on the Day of Judgment."

    "What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say."
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #3 - July 14, 2011, 02:50 PM

    Vagabond, do you have a URL for that hadith please?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #4 - July 14, 2011, 02:56 PM

    Notice he says it used to be like Surah Baraah ( Taubah ) in length which spans around an entire Juz

    "What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say."
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #5 - July 14, 2011, 02:57 PM

    No I dont, I came across it on some forum long long ago and had it saved in my cellphone.

    "What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say."
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #6 - July 14, 2011, 05:48 PM

    From: Sahih Muslim Book 005, Number 2285:
    Ibn Abbas reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: If there were for the son of Adam a valley full of riches, he would long to possess another one like it. and Ibn Adam does not feel satiated but with dust. 1413 And Allah returns to him who returns (to HiM). 1414 Ibn Abbas said: I do not know whether it is from the Qur'an or not; and in the narration transmitted by Zuhair it was said: I do not know whether it is from the Qur'an, and he made no mention of Ibn Abbas.


  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #7 - July 15, 2011, 07:31 AM

    Does anyone have a reference to the hadith about Aisha's goat eating verses?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #8 - July 15, 2011, 01:54 PM

    The reference I could find to the Aisha hadith was Sunan Ibn Majah, Book of Nikah, Hadith 1934

    Quote
    Muslim Vol 2, Book 005, Number 2286:
    Abu Harb b. Abu al-Aswad reported on the authority of his father that Abu Musa al-Ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur'an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it:" If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust." And we used so recite a slirah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it:" Oh people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise" (lxi 2.) and" that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13).



    Quote
    Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 299:
    Narrated Anas:

    The people of the tribes of Ril, Dhakwan, 'Usiya and Bani Lihyan came to the Prophet and claimed that they had embraced Islam, and they requested him to support them with some men to fight their own people. The Prophet supported them with seventy men from the Ansar whom we used to call Al-Qurra'(i.e. Scholars) who (out of piety) used to cut wood during the day and pray all the night. So, those people took the (seventy) men till they reached a place called Bi'r-Ma'ana where they betrayed and martyred them. So, the Prophet invoked evil on the tribe of Ril, Dhakwan and Bani Lihyan for one month in the prayer.

    Narrated Qatada: Anas told us that they (i.e. Muslims) used to recite a Quranic Verse concerning those martyrs which was:-- "O Allah! Let our people be informed on our behalf that we have met our Lord Who has got pleased with us and made us pleased." Then the Verse was cancelled.


    These 2 taken together is further evidence...

    Quote
    Muslim Book 017, Number 4194:
    'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.


    Quote
    Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816:
    Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

    'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."


    But muslims will counter with

    None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that God hath power over all things? Surah 2.106

  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #9 - July 15, 2011, 01:56 PM

    Even when the Quran isn't preserved, it's preserved? BE RATIONAL grin12

    Thought I'd create the end text for a possible vid on the subject. Afro

  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #10 - July 15, 2011, 01:58 PM

    The same yet different?
    BE RATIONAL

    Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #11 - July 15, 2011, 02:01 PM

     Cry..... Afro
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #12 - July 15, 2011, 02:09 PM

    I think many people choose Islam is because they believe in God and want to find a religion. So they look for the most internally consistent religion. I think that's the reason why many christians become Muslims.

    Many muslims promote Islam as the most internally consistent religion (Ahmed Deedat, Zakir Naik, Harun Yahya), and then state that because it's most the internally consistent it's from God. (I

    I love your vids where you've shown how the Islam contradicts reality. Are you going down the path of showing how Islam contradicts itself?
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #13 - July 15, 2011, 02:11 PM

    There are quite a few contradictions in the Quran. I have lots planned and little time to do them.  I could make about 10 videos right now if only I had won £161,000,000 on the European lottery a few days ago Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #14 - July 15, 2011, 02:28 PM

    Man up rationalizer, and make those vids.  grin12

    Some hadiths on compilation.

    Quote
    Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510:
    Narrated Anas bin Malik:

    Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)


    Quote
    Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 511:
    Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

    Abu Bakr sent for me and said, "You used to write the Divine Revelations for Allah's Apostle : So you should search for (the Qur'an and collect) it." I started searching for the Qur'an till I found the last two Verses of Surat At-Tauba with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari and I could not find these Verses with anybody other than him. (They were):

    'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty ...' (9.128-129)


    Quote
    Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 515:
    Narrated Yusuf bin Mahk:

    While I was with Aisha, the mother of the Believers, a person from Iraq came and asked, "What type of shroud is the best?" 'Aisha said, "May Allah be merciful to you! What does it matter?" He said, "O mother of the Believers! Show me (the copy of) your Qur'an," She said, "Why?" He said, "In order to compile and arrange the Qur'an according to it, for people recite it with its Suras not in proper order." 'Aisha said, "What does it matter which part of it you read first? (Be informed) that the first thing that was revealed thereof was a Sura from Al-Mufassal, and in it was mentioned Paradise and the Fire. When the people embraced Islam, the Verses regarding legal and illegal things were revealed. If the first thing to be revealed was: 'Do not drink alcoholic drinks.' people would have said, 'We will never leave alcoholic drinks,' and if there had been revealed, 'Do not commit illegal sexual intercourse, 'they would have said, 'We will never give up illegal sexual intercourse.' While I was a young girl of playing age, the following Verse was revealed in Mecca to Muhammad: 'Nay! But the Hour is their appointed time (for their full recompense), and the Hour will be more grievous and more bitter.' (54.46) Sura Al-Baqara (The Cow) and Surat An-Nisa (The Women) were revealed while I was with him." Then 'Aisha took out the copy of the Qur'an for the man and dictated to him the Verses of the Suras (in their proper order) .


    Quote
    Volume 6, Book 61, Number 526:
    Narrated Anas bin Malik:

    When the Prophet died, none had collected the Qur'an but four persons;: Abu Ad-Darda'. Mu'adh bin Jabal, Zaid bin Thabit and Abu Zaid. We were the inheritor (of Abu Zaid) as he had no offspring .




  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #15 - July 15, 2011, 02:30 PM

    Unfortunately I have a full time job or I would.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #16 - July 15, 2011, 04:55 PM

    Wow, Ratz could've made some kick-arse viddys on this.

    This is too compelling, I'm tempted to make a video..  Roll Eyes

    Great job there, strangest  Afro
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #17 - July 15, 2011, 06:45 PM

    Go ahead and make the video.  If you do then msg me and I'll send you any notes I already had in case there are some extra.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #18 - July 15, 2011, 08:47 PM

    ^^ Thanks for that Ratz, will sure PM you when it's all set  Smiley

    Doesn't matter, as these can surely be considered as contradictory evidence, but still don't many of the muslims reject the authenticity of hadiths, when presented with such arguments?
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #19 - July 15, 2011, 08:52 PM

    Here's one reply that says

    Quote
    Unfortunately, after the death of the prophet Muhammad, the hypocrites fabricated hadiths and attributed them to the prophet and distorted God's law. The people who are described in 6:112 produced lie after lie to change the punishment of adultery to death by stoning for married adulterers. They adopted this law from the Jews and their idol worshipping ancestors (11:91; 44:20; 36:18; 26:116) claiming that the words of God are not complete and clear in 24:1-2. It is significant that the Almighty God stated in the beginning of Chapter 24, that this law is profound and clear!!!

     
    http://www.quran.org/19quest.htm#QUES6

    Still they are absolutely certain that no one has changed the quran though  grin12
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #20 - July 15, 2011, 08:59 PM

    Which is evidence that Allah chose a flawed system for delivering its religion.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #21 - July 16, 2011, 04:42 AM

    Which is evidence that Allah chose a flawed system for delivering its religion.


    True, though that's what muslims often do when I quote hadiths.  mysmilie_977
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #22 - July 16, 2011, 04:49 AM

    Faulty Hadith is all I see.
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #23 - July 16, 2011, 06:09 AM

    'Faulty'? And how did you reach that conclusion?

    Muslims make the claim that the quran has not been changed - however there is evidence contrary to it and there is no good evidence going for it. Hence it is possible that the quran MAY have been altered.
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #24 - July 16, 2011, 08:03 AM

    If I had had more volunteers to write up hadiths with full isnads I'd have written that website I proposed which would let someone specify that a certain hadith is weak + why it is weak (person X cannot be trusted) and then show all of the implications of making that claim, e.g. "Muhammad is the last messenger went from strength 50% to 5%"

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #25 - July 16, 2011, 08:26 AM

    'Faulty'? And how did you reach that conclusion?

    Muslims make the claim that the quran has not been changed - however there is evidence contrary to it and there is no good evidence going for it. Hence it is possible that the quran MAY have been altered.


    Ya, but there is a science to hadith or something, because apparently Bukhari was a moron and filled the thing with a bunch of false hadiths. Therefor you need hadith science!
    According to hadith science, they are all presupposed to be true, unless they cause you to lose an argument or say something so insanely stupid/barbaric that a sane 21century human could not defend it, in which case they were planted by jews or something.

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #26 - July 16, 2011, 08:28 AM

    On a serious note, does anyone know where one can discover the alleged strength of a hadith and read any reasoning behind the conclusion?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #27 - July 16, 2011, 09:16 AM

    Why trash hadith?
    Quote
    1. If any book contains a few lies (which we have more than just "few" examples), then, the endorsement of that book is not reliable. If you see dozens of repeated fabrications introduced as trustworthy (sahih) hadith, then, how can you still rely on other narration of the same book?

    2. Judging each hadith on its individual merit may seem attractive for those who are not satisfied with God's book, but it is a waste of time and a deceptive method. If the signature of narrators (sanad) cannot provide authenticity about the source of hadith, then, our only guide to decide on the content of hadiths (matn) will be our personal wish or our current inclinations. How can we decide which hadith has a merit? How can we decide which hadiths is accurate? We may say "by comparing them with the Quran!" But, what this really mean? If it is "me" who will compare a hadith to the Quran, if it is again "me" who will judge whether it contradicts the Quran or not, then, I will end up with "hadith" which supports "my" personal understanding of the Quran. In this case hadith cannot function as an explanation of the Quran. They will be confirmation or justification of my understanding of the Quran; with literally tasteless, grammatically lame language.... Furthermore, what about hadiths that bring extra duties and prohibitions?

    3. Again, there are many hadiths about the prophet's life which you cannot accept them with a sober mind. They are narrated repeatedly in many so-called authentic books. We cannot create a history out of a mishmash of narration by a subjective method of pick and choose. We can create many conflicting portraits of Muhammad out of those hadiths. As for pure historical events that isolated from their moral and religious implications, they are not part of the religion, and we don't need them for our salvation. I never said "we should not read hadith." In fact, we can study hadith books to get an approximate idea about the people and events of those times. We can even construct a "conjecture" about the history, without attributing them to God or his prophet. Please don't forget that the "history" is not immune of filtration, censorship and distortion of ruling class. You can see many different versions of histories (!) regarding the era of early Islam . Just read Sunny and Shiite histories.

    4. We cannot disregard God's frequent assertion that the Quran is detailed, complete, clear, and easy to understand. What do you think about the verse 17:46? "When you preach your Lord, in the Quran ALONE, they run away with aversion."

    5. Hadith books are full of contradictory teachings. They eventually lead us to a sanctified and justified secterian division in the name of the Prophet. Their very nature is another proof that hadith collections cannot be divine, since God, characterize his word and religion being not having contradiction: "Why do they not study the Quran carefull? If it were from other than God, they would have found in it numerous contradictions." (4:82). This verse clearly refutes the traditional argument that hadith books contain other revelations besides the Quran, since the followers of Hadith and Sunnah wrongly attribute verses about the Quran to hadith, such as: "Your friend (Muhammad) is not astray, nor is he deceived. Nor is he speaking out of a personal desire. It is a divine inspiration." (53:2-4). Furthermore, verses 39:27-28 describes the Quran and the following verse distinguish the divine teaching from other teachings. "God cites the example of a man who deals with disputing partners, compared to a man who deals with only one man. Are they the same? Praise be to God; most of them do not know." (39:29). Obviously, hadith narrators and collections are "disputing partners," while the Quran is a consistent source.

    6. Give me one, only one "hadith" that you think it is necessary for my salvation besides the Quran. If you are not ready to discuss the necessity and accuracy of a single hadith, then please give up from your invitation for hadith and Sunna.

     

    http://www.quran.org/trashhadith.htm

    So I guess what they are saying is, quran is complete by itself and hence you don't need hadiths which are written by fallible humans.  Roll Eyes
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #28 - July 16, 2011, 09:19 AM

    So I guess what they are saying is, quran is complete by itself and hence you don't need hadiths which are written by fallible humans.  Roll Eyes


    In which case there is no lower age limit of 9 years at which you can have sex with your wife Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evidence that the Quran has changed
     Reply #29 - July 16, 2011, 10:05 AM

    In which case there is no lower age limit of 9 years at which you can have sex with your wife Smiley


    Ahh yes. Just checked the answering christianity site for confirmation, they do rely on the hadith for that info  grin12
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »