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Theme Changer

 Topic: Why no Christians?

 (Read 25286 times)
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  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #30 - August 03, 2011, 08:48 PM

    If Christianity is relaxed, its because its been beaten into a relaxed state, by centuries, and decades of secular pressure and post enlightenment society, the priveliging of the individual over the collective, and all the scrutiny and de-fanging that has ordered.

    Literalism still prevails overall in Islam. Thats why it is possible to challenge Christianity in ways that are not really replicated in the ummah. So its the fact that we are in a post-literalist Christian world that our society is open and secular and relaxed. Islam is in a state of panic because it has seen what has happened to Christianity.

    Bang mother fucking on.

    The OP presents a reasonable question that I suspect doesn't have a single answer, because each new member comes with their own story and their own attitude. The question of how to treat new Christian members is similar to one I've pondered when reading intros and other posts from new members that express other faith based beliefs: reincarnation, homoeopathy, afterlives, etc. I'd go with Ishina's usual uncompromising stance on bullshit for most situations, but for intro's it may be best to focus on the greetings, empathy and goodwill and save the clash of ideas for dedicated threads. This is particularly true for new members who seem to be in a vulnerable place, be that mentally, familiarly or however else. Winning the argument and killing poorly explored irrational beliefs is great, but probably for the best not to repel people before they've settled in.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #31 - August 03, 2011, 08:53 PM

    Bang on again  Afro

    Hi
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #32 - August 03, 2011, 08:55 PM

    Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
    ~ 1 Timothy 2:11-12

    Fuck Christianity.


    Oh come on, you know there's at least half a dozen ways of rationalizing that away Tongue As hypocritical/dishonest/whatever as it might be to do that, it does mean a Christian doesn't necessarily have to be sexist. And in practice, few are.

    And yeah, I agree with chris (I'm assuming you prefer that to "Chris" Tongue). Newcomers, ex-Muslims, should probably be made to feel welcome, at least initially.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #33 - August 03, 2011, 08:57 PM

    All the arguments you are presenting apply equally to Islam.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #34 - August 03, 2011, 08:59 PM

    Sure, which is why I'd expect ex-Christian sites to welcome Muslims as well and make them feel at home.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #35 - August 03, 2011, 09:00 PM

    Both Muslims and Christians are welcome here.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #36 - August 03, 2011, 09:04 PM

    Both Muslims and Christians are welcome here.


    I'm neither  Cry
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #37 - August 03, 2011, 09:07 PM

    Both Muslims and Christians are welcome here.


    Sure, that's perfectly fine. But this is a site, first and foremost, for ex-Muslims. Muslims can't be ex-Muslims.

    I think.

    You never know, I find people adopting seemingly mutually exclusive ideas all the time.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #38 - August 03, 2011, 09:14 PM

    It seems to me more of an argument to protect Christian doctrine rather than protect Ex-Muslims.

    Nobody is gonna pounce on a Christian if they are talking about flower arranging. It's when they start regurgitating scripture or promoting the doctrine which hates minorities, treats women as second class, gays as abominations, sexuality as unclean, and responsible family planning as sinful, that they warrant a little extra attention.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #39 - August 03, 2011, 09:17 PM

    Not really protecting Christian doctrine as much as treating nice ex-Muslim Christians gently because this site is also, after all, for them.

    Do you agree at least that intro threads should be friendly and non-hostile?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #40 - August 03, 2011, 09:23 PM

    Depends entirely on the manner of the introduction. Not all introductions fit into a neat little template.

    I wouldn't agree to making introduction threads untouchable. Then, you could basically say anything in your introduction thread without having to answer to your words.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #41 - August 03, 2011, 09:58 PM

    Good point Ishina.

    But regarding new posters in general, and not just Christian ones: I can't help but think that established members are able to influence the tone of some of the intro threads. Sometimes, you can sense/blatantly see from an individuals first posts that they are going to hold views that the majority of us here are likely to be at odds with. On such occasions, is it not better to show restraint, and to refrain from using leading questions that would eventually, and rather inevitably, lead to disagreement?

    Hi
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #42 - August 03, 2011, 10:00 PM

    Sorry I just HAD to return to the forum for this one lol

    Yes this site is for ex-Muslims to get help, support, advice etc… but that doesn't mean they must have the things they say or their beliefs exempted from scrutiny - no matter whether they are Christian, Atheist or whatever. No-one gets let off scrutiny of their beliefs - especially if they want to scrutinise other people's irrational beliefs.

    If they come here just for help, support and advice - that's fine - they will be treated with sympathy and advice and I think most here are very reasonable and good-hearted.

    But if they come to take part in dissecting the irrational beliefs of Muslims then they must be prepared for their beliefs to get the same treatment.

    It would be totally hypocritical for us to question a Muslim visitor about the obnoxious belief in an eternal Hell - for example - but to exempt an Ex-Muslim Christian from scrutiny about his her belief in an eternal Hell. What sort of madness would that be?

    CEMB would lose all credibility and integrity for our stance against the irrational beliefs of Muslims if it protects the irrational beliefs of others from the same scrutiny.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #43 - August 03, 2011, 10:10 PM

    Not really protecting Christian doctrine as much as treating nice ex-Muslim Christians gently because this site is also, after all, for them.


    There was a Christian ex-Muslim woman (she was a convert then left Islam and went back to Islam) who was a teacher in the Gulf I think and asaik she was always treated well since she didn't come here to bang on about her beliefs or display double standards by attacking Muslims on the one hand but wanting her beliefs protected on the other. Can't remember her nick but I liked her and she was well liked and well treated here.

    But we've had a couple who just want to weigh in on Islam while getting upset or abusive if their religion is criticised. Sorry but, like I say - no-one is exempt.

    If they just come for help, advice support and an arm round their shoulder - that's fine.

    But if they have their battle hat on and want to join the fray - they must be ready to take the flak too!

    Simple as that!
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #44 - August 03, 2011, 10:11 PM

    Do you agree at least that intro threads should be friendly and non-hostile?


    In general all intro threads should be that way - but ppl obviously will react if someone - anyone - starts sniping. They gotta expect it back!

    But yes, as a rule intro threads should be just for welcoming - regardless of who they are.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #45 - August 03, 2011, 10:19 PM

    Thanks for clarifying that, Hassan! (Huge fan, by the way. Bet you get that a lot Tongue)

    Okay, do you guys agree that we should have more vocal Christian ex-Muslims here? If so, I might take some time to scour the web for a few and invite them to CEMB.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #46 - August 03, 2011, 10:22 PM

    Ex-Muslim Christian or Muslim ex-Christian, if they come they come, why go looking for them?  Huh?

    "The greatest general is not the one who can take the most cities or spill the most blood. The greatest general is the one who can take Heaven and Earth without waging the battle." ~ Sun Tzu

  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #47 - August 03, 2011, 10:23 PM

    Thanks for clarifying that, Hassan! (Huge fan, by the way. Bet you get that a lot Tongue)

    Okay, do you guys agree that we should have more vocal Christian ex-Muslims here? If so, I might take some time to scour the web for a few and invite them to CEMB.

    By all means. tbh I've not met that many ex-Muslim Christians. We've only had a few here such as Bahira and Armand (who are just loony-tunes). I have no doubt there are some normal, nice ones out there - so yes, it would be good to have some others here.

    I'll be on my best behaviour (so long as they are  grin12)
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #48 - August 03, 2011, 10:23 PM

    Hi, welcome back Hassan, and please stay with us!  Smiley

    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #49 - August 03, 2011, 10:24 PM

    Why are you all so concerned about Christians?   Huh?

    Not that I object to Christians, I used to be one after all.  But what about ex-muslims who have converted to Buddhism, or the Wiccan faith or whatever?  

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #50 - August 03, 2011, 10:26 PM

    (Note: This isn't necessarily just about Christians, but any other religious ex-Muslims)


    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #51 - August 03, 2011, 10:29 PM

    Somebody needs to tell the thread title that, its misleading.   Tongue

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #52 - August 03, 2011, 10:34 PM

    Tongue

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #53 - August 03, 2011, 10:34 PM

    I... wanna change it, but I've sort of grown to like it. It sounds so... musical.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #54 - August 03, 2011, 10:38 PM

    Good point Ishina.

    But regarding new posters in general, and not just Christian ones: I can't help but think that established members are able to influence the tone of some of the intro threads. Sometimes, you can sense/blatantly see from an individuals first posts that they are going to hold views that the majority of us here are likely to be at odds with. On such occasions, is it not better to show restraint, and to refrain from using leading questions that would eventually, and rather inevitably, lead to disagreement?

    To be fair, it's no coincidence that you or I slotted into the forum neatly, and it's no coincidence that people who happen to have hostile beliefs, disrespectful beliefs, or just plain silly beliefs, don't find themselves quite as welcome. That's just the way of the world.

    Everyone here had the same posting rights when they joined. We all start with a clean slate and can share as much or as little about ourselves as we choose to. And once we do choose to share ourselves, our thoughts, our ideas, our opinions, our judgements - once we put words out there into the world - people will pick up on them and react in their own special way. That's what we're here for.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #55 - August 03, 2011, 10:39 PM

    I... wanna change it, but I've sort of grown to like it. It sounds so... musical.


    It sounds like a thread started by a Roman lion hungry for more food... yeah, I spose that could be musical.   dance

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #56 - August 03, 2011, 10:43 PM


    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #57 - August 03, 2011, 10:44 PM

    it's no coincidence that people who happen to have hostile beliefs, disrespectful beliefs, or just plain silly beliefs, don't find themselves quite as welcome. That's just the way of the world.

    Everyone here had the same posting rights when they joined. We all start with a clean slate and can share as much or as little about ourselves as we choose to. And once we do choose to share ourselves, our thoughts, our ideas, our opinions, our judgements - once we put words out there into the world - people will pick up on them and react in their own special way. That's what we're here for.


    <holds palms of hands up> Ameeeeen!
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #58 - August 04, 2011, 04:53 AM

    Yea I'm ex-Christian. I do have some Christian bias does that count? Can't help it, I'd prefer Jesus over Mo. Even though both were full of BS  Roll Eyes

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #59 - August 04, 2011, 09:44 AM

    To be fair, it's no coincidence that you or I slotted into the forum neatly, and it's no coincidence that people who happen to have hostile beliefs, disrespectful beliefs, or just plain silly beliefs, don't find themselves quite as welcome. That's just the way of the world.

    Everyone here had the same posting rights when they joined. We all start with a clean slate and can share as much or as little about ourselves as we choose to. And once we do choose to share ourselves, our thoughts, our ideas, our opinions, our judgements - once we put words out there into the world - people will pick up on them and react in their own special way. That's what we're here for.


    It’s impossible to disagree with you. But I can’t help but agree also with Harakaat, and with what Chris said earlier:

    … The question of how to treat new Christian members is similar to one I've pondered when reading intros and other posts from new members that express other faith based beliefs: reincarnation, homoeopathy, afterlives, etc. I'd go with Ishina's usual uncompromising stance on bullshit for most situations, but for intro's it may be best to focus on the greetings, empathy and goodwill and save the clash of ideas for dedicated threads. This is particularly true for new members who seem to be in a vulnerable place, be that mentally, familiarly or however else. Winning the argument and killing poorly explored irrational beliefs is great, but probably for the best not to repel people before they've settled in.


    I too have a feeling that a few members, who could definitely benefit from our influence and support, are frightened away at too early a stage. For these members in particular, would it not pay to be a little more sensitive, and to give them time to settle in and possibly feel more part of our group? By backing off a bit in the intros, and by not posing leading questions that could possibly lead to arguments, we would be helping in our bid to make CEMB a support network for a wider group of people, including those that do still hold a minority of archaic or unusual opinions.

    Who knows, by hanging around here for a little longer, these new members may end up developing richer perspectives? Better still, they may end up being helped through possibly difficult periods of their lives, by perhaps being made to feel a little less isolated?

    Hi
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