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 Topic: Why no Christians?

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  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #60 - August 04, 2011, 10:09 AM
    But that seems to be the case anyway. I don't think members being chased away is currently a problem. The forum seems busier now than it ever has been since I joined. I don't know even half of the active members here. And people also drift away from the forum for a variety of reasons.

    I can think of a few members off-hand who might have been chased away for good reason, but nobody springs to mind who has been treated unfairly. Though maybe I just missed it if you believe it has in fact happened.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #61 - August 04, 2011, 11:06 AM
    Quite regularly, new members leave immediately after posting an intro thread. Of course, for the majority of these members (if not all), the likelihood is that they were never going to hang around anyways. But I sometimes get the nagging thought that, on occasion, if we had been slightly more tolerant and understanding as a group, a small minority of these guys may have stuck around a little longer.

    I can think of at least one example recently where someone has been made to feel different from the majority of us here. She subsequently left. I must add that I was personally as guilty as anyone else in making that person feel that way.
    Hi
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #62 - August 04, 2011, 12:11 PM
    I can't really answer that since I don't know the circumstances that lead her to leave.

    Was she actually made to feel different, or was she simply already different enough and different in such a way that she caused bad vibes?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #63 - August 04, 2011, 12:26 PM
    She was different, but not in the sense that she gave out bad vibes. Her beliefs were eccentric, and you couldn’t help but take the piss. That’s my point really: maybe we should have held back and let her get a feel for the place, before trying to get her to see things the way we see them?

    In general, I’m way too idealistic and would be happier if there was no conflict whatsoever, even with the weirdest of crazies. So, I’m glad that there are others out there, who do stop bigots in their tracks, for example. It’s the fragile ones that may slip though the cracks, that make me want to argue this point.
    Hi
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #64 - August 04, 2011, 12:30 PM
    @musi

    Who was it? Link?

    Btw as a Christian Fundamentalist I have never experienced any hostility towards my beliefs here.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #65 - August 04, 2011, 12:47 PM
    Musi, how would you implement your thoughts practically?

    Again, I don't know half the people here, don't have nearly enough time to read all threads, don't even bother to try and decipher the background noise of idle chit-chat and in-jokes. If while browsing I stumble upon someone saying some retarded shit in a thread and feel compelled to respond, what steps should I take to ensure I'm not making a newcomer unwelcome?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #66 - August 04, 2011, 01:08 PM
    Just what Chris said: for intro's it may be best to focus on the greetings, empathy and goodwill and save the clash of ideas for dedicated threads.

    I don’t think you are ever guilty of this btw, so I hope I wasn't implying that Ishina?

    Quote from: Kenan on August 04, 2011, 12:30 PM
    @musi
    Who was it? Link?
    Btw as a Christian Fundamentalist I have never experienced any hostility towards my beliefs here.


    LOL:

    Perhaps not the best example, but it’s the one that came to mind when this talk started:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16397.0
    Hi
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #67 - August 04, 2011, 02:10 PM
    To be quite honest I very much doubt that there are many Ex-Muslim Christians out there as there are Ex-Muslim Atheists/Agnostics.

    I certainly have hardly met any ex-Muslim Christians apart from the nice lady I mentioned who was a Christian before she converted to Islam anyway and so just went back to her old religion - and then of course the Loony Toons like Armand and Bahira.

    Frankly anyone who has the ability to see through the irrational nonsense that is Islam cannot fail to also see through the irrational nonsense that is Christianity.

    I remember seeing a report saying 6 Million Muslims convert to Christianity in Africa - every year! And that was quite a few years ago, so they pretty much should be all Christians by now  grin12

    It may be the case that in backward and tribal areas people will switch en masse from one religion to another when it suits their needs or to gain some benefits.

    But I find it difficult to believe that many educated, well-informed and rational people who are able to see the intellectual flaws in Islam - cannot see the intellectual flaws in Christianity, too!

    After all it's far harder to see the flaws in one's own religion than someone else's.

    So I look forward to this flood of Christian Ex-Muslims Wink

    (I just hope it's not some of the embarrassingly fake ones I met on FFI back in the day  grin12)
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #68 - August 04, 2011, 02:21 PM

    I know an ex Muslim who is a Christian.

    Christianity's appeal to her is simple - no shame / honour judgment culture, which basically fucked her whole life up, and a focus on a clean slate with Jesus posited as a personal figure of forgiveness and overwhelming love. Which given how she was abused and made to feel like a worthless wretch all her life, had immense emotional resonance to her.

    As always, the appeal of religion is often an emotional one.

    Christianity is full of judgment and emphasis on sin, but her conversion was a private, personal thing that I suspect, is a stepping stone to a more devolved understanding of god away from the structure of religion altogether.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #69 - August 04, 2011, 02:27 PM
    Quote
    But I find it difficult to believe that many educated, well-informed and rational people who are able to see the intellectual flaws in Islam - cannot see the intellectual flaws in Christianity, too!


    True, it doesnt make sense to me for a muslim to convert to christianity although i have met one who happen to be my friend's sister whose mother is a christian too.

    Although i doubt the about the report that 6 million muslims have converted to christianity but it could be possible since we have seen Christian missionaries going to rural and remote areas in Nigeria converting muslims(who are naive of their beliefs) to christians
    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #70 - August 04, 2011, 02:29 PM
    Quote from: billy on August 04, 2011, 02:21 PM
    I know an ex Muslim who is a Christian.

    Christianity's appeal to her is simple - no shame / honour judgment culture, which basically fucked her whole life up, and a focus on a clean slate with Jesus posited as a personal figure of forgiveness and overwhelming love. Which given how she was abused and made to feel like a worthless wretch all her life, had immense emotional resonance to her.

    As always, the appeal of religion is often an emotional one.

    Christianity is full of judgment and emphasis on sin, but her conversion was a private, personal thing that I suspect, is a stepping stone to a more devolved understanding of god away from the structure of religion altogether.




    I can understand people missing the love, security, support and comfort of a caring community and in the West Christianity offers that (even the need to believe in God is relatively unimportant in the Church of England  grin12) - so from that perspective I can see the attraction.

    But to have the intellectual ability to see through Islam and not see through Christianity - I find hard to get my head around.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #71 - August 04, 2011, 02:46 PM
    Quote from: musivore on August 04, 2011, 01:08 PM
    Just what Chris said: for intro's it may be best to focus on the greetings, empathy and goodwill and save the clash of ideas for dedicated threads.

    Sure, introduction threads by their nature are relatively innocuous anyway. Unless someone comes in guns blazing and then they are fair game as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes people skip introductions altogether and jump straight into the fray, which also makes them fair game.

    But there are two issues here - how we treat new members and how we specifically treat Christian Ex-Muslims.

    I don't think anyone will argue that new members deserve a fair hearing, and I think naturally people know where the line is anyway and generally seem to keep their curiosity amiable from what I've seen. And there is always admin to step in if it gets too heated, and it hardly ever does. Beyond that, we should all be robust enough to take a little bit of criticism in an adult world.

    However, I'd be inclined to disassociate myself from the forum if it ever became a Christian-sympathetic forum. Does the forum, or the CEMB entity as a whole, honestly need to give its critics extra ammo by becoming "Christian friendly", specifically? And does it really want to sacrifice secular respect and integrity by implicitly furthering Christian agenda?

    Quote from: musivore on August 04, 2011, 01:08 PM
    I don’t think you are ever guilty of this btw, so I hope I wasn't implying that Ishina?

    Didn't cross my mind.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #72 - August 04, 2011, 03:01 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on August 04, 2011, 02:46 PM
    However, I'd be inclined to disassociate myself from the forum if it ever became a Christian-sympathetic forum. Does the forum, or the CEMB entity as a whole, honestly need to give its critics extra ammo by becoming "Christian friendly", specifically? And does it really want to sacrifice secular respect and integrity by implicitly furthering Christian agenda? Didn't cross my mind.


    +1

    Actually CEMB as an organisation is critical of ALL religions and against the influence of ALL religions in public life - and as far as I know only Atheists/Agnostics can be members of the executive committee.

    So while CEMB defends the right of Muslims to leave and convert to whatever religion they like (and we have issued press releases defending Christian minorities or individuals in Muslim countries) we are however against any religion that seeks to impose itself on public life.

    From our Manifesto:


    Universal rights and equal citizenship for all. We are opposed to cultural relativism and the tolerance of inhuman beliefs, discrimination and abuse in the name of respecting religion or culture.

    Freedom to criticise religion. Prohibition of restrictions on unconditional freedom of criticism and expression using so-called religious 'sanctities'.

    Freedom of religion and atheism.

    Separation of religion from the state and legal and educational system.

    Prohibition of religious customs, rules, ceremonies or activities that are incompatible with or infringe people's rights and freedoms.

    Abolition of all restrictive and repressive cultural and religious customs which hinder and contradict woman's independence, free will and equality. Prohibition of segregation of sexes.

    Prohibition of interference by any authority, family members or relatives, or official authorities in the private lives of women and men and their personal, emotional and sexual relationships and sexuality.

    Protection of children from manipulation and abuse by religion and religious institutions.

    Prohibition of any kind of financial, material or moral support by the state or state institutions to religion and religious activities and institutions.

    Prohibition of all forms of religious intimidation and threats.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #73 - August 04, 2011, 03:09 PM
    Quote from: musivore on August 04, 2011, 01:08 PM

    LOL:

    Perhaps not the best example, but it’s the one that came to mind when this talk started:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16397.0



    How was that in any way not welcoming musivore?  Huh?
    "The greatest general is not the one who can take the most cities or spill the most blood. The greatest general is the one who can take Heaven and Earth without waging the battle." ~ Sun Tzu

  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #74 - August 04, 2011, 03:17 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on August 04, 2011, 03:01 PM
    Actually CEMB as an organisation is critical of ALL religions and against the influence of ALL religions in public life - and as far as I know only Atheists/Agnostics can be members of the executive committee.

    So while CEMB defends the right of Muslims to leave and convert to whatever religion they like (and we have issued press releases defending Christian minorities or individuals in Muslim countries) we are however against any religion that seeks to impose itself on public life.

    That's the strength of it, no compromise for any religion or creed. Favouritism can be exploited both ways, by those favoured and those not.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #75 - August 04, 2011, 03:18 PM
    Maya: I thought we took the piss a bit. And cause she never returned, I'm probably being sensitive.
    Hi
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #76 - August 04, 2011, 03:22 PM
    Hmmm ok, well I'd take the piss out of anyone who believed in reincarnation too, but that doesn't mean they aren't welcome.   Smiley
    "The greatest general is not the one who can take the most cities or spill the most blood. The greatest general is the one who can take Heaven and Earth without waging the battle." ~ Sun Tzu

  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #77 - August 04, 2011, 03:28 PM
    Maybe she doesnt have a daily access to internet. I joined this forum a year ago but i wasnt fully active until around March/April because i have daily access to internet.
    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #78 - August 04, 2011, 03:36 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on August 04, 2011, 03:17 PM
    That's the strength of it, no compromise for any religion or creed. Favouritism can be exploited both ways, by those favoured and those not.


    Precisely!

    Anyone who wants to criticise Islam, its irrational beliefs and abusive practices loses all credibility if they want to protect the irrational beliefs and abusive practices of another religion - no matter what it may be.

    FFI for example only wants to criticise Islam and protects Christianity from criticism - and frankly that site is a joke.

    I guarantee that the reason this forum is popular with 'genuine' ex-Muslims is because we stand against all religions.

    If we started following a policy of 'protecting' Christianity from harsh scrutiny and criticism most would soon leave - me being the first!
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #79 - August 04, 2011, 03:40 PM
    Quote from: musivore on August 04, 2011, 01:08 PM
    Just what Chris said: for intro's it may be best to focus on the greetings, empathy and goodwill and save the clash of ideas for dedicated threads.

    I don’t think you are ever guilty of this btw, so I hope I wasn't implying that Ishina?

    LOL:

    Perhaps not the best example, but it’s the one that came to mind when this talk started:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16397.0



    I don't see much wrong with that thread at all?

    Also did I miss where she said she was a Christian?
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #80 - August 04, 2011, 03:43 PM
    Actually a couple of people here have said we have been rude to Christian Ex-Muslims.

    Could I please ask for some evidence - coz apart from Armand and Bahira (who were nutcases and asked for it) - I don't know of any ex-Muslim Christian who was badly treated here  Huh?
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #81 - August 04, 2011, 03:48 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on August 04, 2011, 03:40 PM
    I don't see much wrong with that thread at all?

    Also did I miss where she said she was a Christian?


    No, she wasn't a Christian, just an ex-Muslim
    Hi
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #82 - August 04, 2011, 03:50 PM
    She was an ex-Muslim, and I didn't read anything about her being Christian. She has something with reincarnation in which I don't believe, but that's quite something else as the rubbish of several religions.
    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #83 - August 04, 2011, 04:16 PM
    Musi I didn't see anything wrong with that thread either tbh. wacko

    Maybe your conscious guilty and is now looking to justify it with innocent threads?

    Although I agree with the rest of the posts here, all members of all backgrounds are welcome here, it's a different matter how their views and behaviour is dealt with, obviously if a troll is trolling we're not going to allow them to walk all over us now are we? The same goes for apologists who come here to justify their religion to us, but most importantly to themselves, we only treat them the way it should be done.

    I'm not however saying that we are perfect and the way we treat certain individual cases is right, of course you're going to find cracks through the forum like you would anywhere, but generally speaking I think this forum is fairly open and non hostile than any forum on the internet. Smiley
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #84 - August 04, 2011, 04:19 PM
    swapping christianity for islam or vice versa is like swapping aids for cancer

    they're basically eggs from the same nest
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #85 - August 04, 2011, 04:35 PM
    Quote from: Zaiba on August 04, 2011, 04:16 PM
    Musi I didn't see anything wrong with that thread either tbh. wacko

    Maybe your conscious guilty and is now looking to justify it with innocent threads?

    Although I agree with the rest of the posts here, all members of all backgrounds are welcome here, it's a different matter how their views and behaviour is dealt with, obviously if a troll is trolling we're not going to allow them to walk all over us now are we? The same goes for apologists who come here to justify their religion to us, but most importantly to themselves, we only treat them the way it should be done.

    I'm not however saying that we are perfect and the way we treat certain individual cases is right, of course you're going to find cracks through the forum like you would anywhere, but generally speaking I think this forum is fairly open and non hostile than any forum on the internet. Smiley


    Okay, fair enough  Smiley
    Hi
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #86 - August 04, 2011, 04:38 PM
    Smiley
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #87 - August 04, 2011, 05:12 PM
    If an ex Muslim who has become a Christian comes here and does not prosletyse I don't see why they shouldn't contribute fruitfully. If they do prosletyse then they can expect a response, but I don't see why their experience and perspective shouldn't be part of the discussion.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #88 - August 04, 2011, 07:35 PM
    Guys, look what I found on WikiIslam!

    Ex-Muslim Organizations

    For all former Muslims:

    Former Muslims United
    Faith Freedom International (forum)

    For atheists:

    Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain
    Council of Ex-Muslims of Germany
    Council of Ex-Muslims (forum)


    Looks like we have that sort of reputation Tongue

    Anyway, yeah, what I tried to say was that if CEMB is an organization for all ex-Muslims, then they should probably find support and not criticalness here (which does not, I think, mean "furthering Christian agenda", Ishina). If CEMB is envisioned as an organization primarily (not necessarily exclusively) for irreligionist ex-Muslims, at the same time advocating the causes of all ex-Muslims, then the approach would be different.

    Remember all the shit Zaiba went through and goes through? Peru as well? The shit musivore is going through with his wife? Hassan with his friends? Sunbul with her family? Fombles with his? Me with my schoolmates who have threatened me with violence? Christian converts are going through that shit as well. Should we really sacrifice CEMB's potential status as a haven, a refuge for them, just for the sake of intellectual integrity and critical thinking?

    Also, I think in the West you're probably right, Hassan, about there being fewer Christian ex-Muslims. But in other parts of the world, I think Christians are gaining quite a few converts, and from what little reading I have been doing (and from my own personal experience), I think there's more Christians than atheists in those parts of the world.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Why no Christians?
     Reply #89 - August 04, 2011, 07:40 PM
    And I think those Christian converts probably left Islam because Jesus seemed cooler or something, rather than out of... skepticism. So when they turn up here they're not really going to fit in... not that I'd advocating alienating them. The few ex-Muslim Christians we've had on here pretty much did that on their own...
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