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 Topic: Riots in London

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  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #150 - August 09, 2011, 11:01 AM
    Quote from: billy on August 09, 2011, 08:38 AM
    Its easy to just explain it away as a consequence of one thing or another too. Clearly, its complicated.

    But again - the people experiencing hardship as a consequence of the cuts runs into the tens of millions. If there was a direct causal link, there would be millions upon millions, not a few thousand, rioting.

    The people who live marginalised, struggling lives in general also runs into the millions. On Saturday, immigrant families were burnt out of their homes and livelihoods. Those people from ethnic minorities are also marginalised and subject to social pressures and also prejudice and misunderstanding. But they didn't riot, loot and burn, they were victims of it.




    the acts of violence and vandalism have been despicable and the effects on homes and livelihoods is saddening - both rich and poor have suffered/are suffering. and it's true that tens of millions are facing similar financial hardships but have not resorted to rioting, but imo there is a key point we might be missing here, and that is the fact we are dealing with young youth. in fact a lot of the rioters are teens and some are even adolescents. they are young youth who have no money, have no prospects, have no part in society - they've been cast aside and forgotten about. i know when i was that age I had a fraction of the maturity and knowledge i have now - i'm not saying i would have gone out rioting and looting but i'm just saying that we can't expect all teens and adolescents to deal with these problems in a mature way. in fact i see it as our duty and the duty of our government to see that this section of society in particular is looked after and are not forgotten about - not beacuse they pose a threat to a peaceful society but because in a civlised understanding human society, it's what's incumbent upon us.

    i fully accept that heinous and shameful crimes have/are being commited and that a lot of these have been opportunistic. the rioters/looters/muggers are fully responsible for their actions - they should be punished accordingly by law wherever possible. and i do think the policing has been too weak, there needs to be more police and yes dogs and tear gas as a defence needs to be introduced quickly. i just think it's a big mistake to ignore the possibilty that recent government spending policies have contributed to the anger we are seeing on our streets.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #151 - August 09, 2011, 11:13 AM
    Quote
    but imo there is a key point we might be missing here, and that is the fact we are dealing with young youth. in fact a lot of the rioters are teens and some are even adolescents. they are young youth who have no money, have no prospects, have no part in society - they've been cast aside and forgotten about.


    How did all those black, asian, ethnic minority and immigrant victims of the rioters burned out of their homes manage to make something of their lives in the inner city, given that they lived in the same areas of 'neglect', and were not given any handouts and were certainly not born with a silver spoon in their mouths?

    I'm not saying that investment and attention should not be paid to these areas. I'm saying the victims of these riots are poor, marginalised, working class, and more often than not, women, men and children from ethnic minorities.

    I'm saying that the violent rioters should not be given the status of being primary victims.



    Quote
    . i just think it's a big mistake to ignore the possibilty that recent government spending policies have contributed to the anger we are seeing on our streets.


    This government has been in for just over a year. If you're making the structural argument, the eleven years that Labour were in power just about accounts for the age of the youngest of the rioters.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #152 - August 09, 2011, 11:23 AM

    The other thing is, these rioters were on a lark. It was fun to them to smash up, burn, mug, batter and loot. They are enjoying themselves.

    Why does football hooliganism occur? Socio-economic reasons? Masculinity problems? The crisis of government? Well, you know what? To those scrapping and steaming, its fun.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #153 - August 09, 2011, 11:25 AM


    Have a look, see if you can recognise anyone.


    http://catchalooter.tumblr.com/

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #154 - August 09, 2011, 11:26 AM
    Quote from: billy on August 09, 2011, 11:13 AM
    How did all those black, asian, ethnic minority and immigrant victims of the rioters burned out of their homes manage to make something of their lives in the inner city, given that they lived in the same areas of 'neglect', and were not given any handouts and were certainly not born with a silver spoon in their mouths


    I am just curious here.. who are these RIOTERS??

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIbX28hmiq0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFWk3572_TU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6jlLqcvGg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6icm3aujb4k
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #155 - August 09, 2011, 11:34 AM
    Quote
    How did all those black, asian, ethnic minority and immigrant victims of the rioters burned out of their homes manage to make something of their lives in the inner city, given that they lived in the same areas of 'neglect', and were not given any handouts and were certainly not born with a silver spoon in their mouths?



    i'm not sure why you're so intent on bringing the race issue into this all the time - for me it's not so relevant in this case. some of the rioters are black, some are white, some are brown. some of the victims are black, some are white, and some are brown. what's more relevant i think is the age group of the rioters. yes people living in areas of 'neglect' have managed to make something of their lives from very limited means. but you can't ignore the current economic crisis we are in, young people have much bleaker prospects than ever before, it's a fact that that the current situation mostly affects young people in particular in terms of job and education prospects - in fact its plastered all over the media - and young people do read/see the media.

    Quote
    This government has been in for just over a year. If you're making the structural argument, the eleven years that Labour were in power just about accounts for the age of the youngest of the rioters.



    yes and in those eleven years there was no rioting but now there is. but i'm not too into politics and certainly don't care too much about the labour v tory thing - what i do care about is the current spending policies, regardless of what government has imposed them.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #156 - August 09, 2011, 11:38 AM
    Quote from: billy on August 09, 2011, 11:23 AM
    The other thing is, these rioters were on a lark. It was fun to them to smash up, burn, mug, batter and loot. They are enjoying themselves.

    Why does football hooliganism occur? Socio-economic reasons? Masculinity problems? The crisis of government? Well, you know what? To those scrapping and steaming, its fun.




    perhaps for some of the rioters this was the case but i don't think we could realistically argue that all the rioters were out for a bit of fun - there was real anger out there.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #157 - August 09, 2011, 11:43 AM
    Quote
    i'm not sure why you're so intent on bringing the race issue into this all the time


    Its not bringing in the race issue. Its pointing out that the primary victims of this are the people who the Left should usually be most concerned about the persecution of - the working class, the immigrants, and the ethnic minorities.

    Instead, there is a tendency to afford the perpetrators primary victim status - and entirely absolve them of their own agency and responsibility for their own actions.

    Quote
    young people have much bleaker prospects than ever before


    Times are hard for everyone. Everyone does not resort to burning and looting and violence.


    Quote
    yes and in those eleven years there was no rioting but now there is.


    Wrong. There were major riots in the northern milltowns and in Lozells under Labour.

    If you want to use the structural argument, you have to include Labour in the analysis.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #158 - August 09, 2011, 11:46 AM
    Quote from: Blade Gunner on August 09, 2011, 11:38 AM
    perhaps for some of the rioters this was the case but i don't think we could realistically argue that all the rioters were out for a bit of fun - there was real anger out there.


    Yes, there was anger against JD Sports and Footlocker for not having enough Adidas Sambas in their size, and Curry's and Debenhams for not having Sony Brava HD in 60" in stock.

    Being serious, here is a very telling piece on what bloggers and activists in Egypt, who are undergoing a real social movement, are making of all this:

    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/08/egyptian-bloggers-parse-london-riots-in-real-time/

    Quote
    Trying to get her head around the mayhem, Zeinobia — who took part in the protests that forced Hosni Mubarak from power — asked her followers on Twitter to explain what was happening. A Cairo radio anchor, who writes as LinaNileFM on the social network, responded: “Riots broke out in North London over a police shooting, started peacefully then turned violent with cars and buildings burnt down.”



    Quote
    Mosa’ab Elshamy, another Cairene blogger and activist who played a role in the protest movement in Egypt, took a similar view of what was happening in London, writing on Twitter:

        Buildings are on fire, shops are being looted while many “activists” on my timeline are cheering on, calling it a revolution.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #159 - August 09, 2011, 11:49 AM
    Quote
    Its not bringing in the race issue. Its pointing out that the primary victims of this are the people who the Left should usually be most concerned about the persecution of - the working class, the immigrants, and the ethnic minorities.



    what we are witnessing is not persecution - its random acts of violence and vandalism.

    Quote
    Instead, there is a tendency to afford the perpetrators primary victim status - and entirely absolve them of their own agency and responsibility for their own actions.



    i don't think anyone on here is really doing that

    Quote
    Wrong. There were major riots in the northern milltowns and in Lozells under Labour.

    If you want to use the structural argument, you have to include Labour in the analysis.



    oh yes, i always forget about those foreign countries. just kidding  Tongue
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #160 - August 09, 2011, 11:53 AM
    Quote
    what we are witnessing is not persecution - its random acts of violence and vandalism.


    OK, semantics - its about how people who are completely innocent are subjected to the violence of mobs.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #161 - August 09, 2011, 11:54 AM
    Quote from: billy on August 09, 2011, 11:46 AM
    Yes, there was anger against JD Sports and Footlocker for not having enough Adidas Sambas in their size, and Curry's and Debenhams for not having Sony Brava HD in 60" in stock.

    Being serious, here is a very telling piece on what bloggers and activists in Egypt, who are undergoing a real social movement, are making of all this:

    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/08/egyptian-bloggers-parse-london-riots-in-real-time/






    yeah i've read some of these and some reports from other countries as well. but i think every country has its own set of problems and it's own unique circumstances and are in different stages of their 'journey'. doesn't make our problems any less real for us.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #162 - August 09, 2011, 12:00 PM
    Quote
    doesn't make our problems any less real for us.


    It actually gets to the core of 'the problem'

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #163 - August 09, 2011, 12:27 PM
    Shame they closed down the News of the World..  They could of hacked the chavs phones and then PASSED ON the information to the Police
    Teach us to care and not to care / Teach us to sit still.
    What do we live for; if it is not to make life less difficult to each other
    You are the music while the music lasts.
    T.S.Eliot
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #164 - August 09, 2011, 12:27 PM
    surprised none of the tv reports have touched on how this may affect the image of London as an Olympic city. Could it have a knock on effect on tourists visiting for the games fearing a 'lawless' city ?  
    Time for a PR campaign with a pic of Seb Coe catching a looter in  9.34 secs over 100m ?
    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #165 - August 09, 2011, 12:33 PM

    MK, they should introduce Looting as an Olympic Event, GB would win the gold, silver and bronze after last night.

    Hood Olympics  Grin
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #166 - August 09, 2011, 12:38 PM
    theres a joke in there about passing the baton but Im too dignified to make it  Wink
    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #167 - August 09, 2011, 12:51 PM
    In case anyone is confused as to the motivations of these little toe rags, two eloquent young ladies put their actions into a wider sociopolitical context:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #168 - August 09, 2011, 01:11 PM
    Quote from: chris on August 09, 2011, 12:51 PM
    In case anyone is confused as to the motivations of these little toe rags, two eloquent young ladies put their actions into a wider sociopolitical context:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424


    Some countries riot for social, political, economical reform...England riots because a portion of society are lowly scum who couldn't amount to anything if their sad excuse for 'lives' depended on it.
    I sincerely hope England grows a spine and gives each thug caught a 10 year prison/juvenile sentence without potential bail as an example for future generations.
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #169 - August 09, 2011, 01:17 PM
    Quote from: Mutha Kuffar on August 09, 2011, 12:27 PM
    surprised none of the tv reports have touched on how this may affect the image of London as an Olympic city. Could it have a knock on effect on tourists visiting for the games fearing a 'lawless' city ?  
    Time for a PR campaign with a pic of Seb Coe catching a looter in  9.34 secs over 100m ?


    a lot of the rioting is actually occuring in hackney - the borough in which the olympics will be staged
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #170 - August 09, 2011, 01:22 PM
    Quote from: chris on August 09, 2011, 12:51 PM
    In case anyone is confused as to the motivations of these little toe rags, two eloquent young ladies put their actions into a wider sociopolitical context:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424


    lol, what a pair  Cheesy
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #171 - August 09, 2011, 02:43 PM
    Quote from: billy on August 09, 2011, 11:43 AM
    Its not bringing in the race issue. Its pointing out that the primary victims of this are the people who the Left should usually be most concerned about the persecution of - the working class, the immigrants, and the ethnic minorities.

    Instead, there is a tendency to afford the perpetrators primary victim status - and entirely absolve them of their own agency and responsibility for their own actions.

    Times are hard for everyone. Everyone does not resort to burning and looting and violence.


    Wrong. There were major riots in the northern milltowns and in Lozells under Labour.

    If you want to use the structural argument, you have to include Labour in the analysis.




    i'm not entirely sure that these riots are comparable to the lozells riot. the lozells riot was over a specific conflict between two specific groups with a specific internal grievance with each other. obviously it manifested into something which looks very similar, but the places attacked were mostly residential, save for lozells road.

    this riot is a massive display of mob opportunism after a hijacked protest, which sort of demonstrates a) the fact that youth work is very important for changing the idea that being on the streets 'warrin mans' isn't cool and there's another way and b) that vastly decreasing social mobility in the way these fee rises just doesn't work.

    i mean it's one thing to make further education ridiculously difficult for the working class and see the working class(mostly) peacefully protest, and another to give hood niggas an excuse to be angry about something that mostly doesn't concern them.

    though what surprises me the most is the fact that people are blaming the police the nature of the riots. what the fuck? these riots would have happened whether the police were involved in them or not(i'm not talking about duggan btw, i'm talking about people blaming police procedure for the escalation of the riots). shit, i commend the police for doing their best with a slashed budget.
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #172 - August 09, 2011, 02:49 PM
    Boris doesn't like his job any more

    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4175&Itemid=28
    Teach us to care and not to care / Teach us to sit still.
    What do we live for; if it is not to make life less difficult to each other
    You are the music while the music lasts.
    T.S.Eliot
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #173 - August 09, 2011, 03:05 PM
    And they cancelled the England/Dutch football match now because there aren't enough Police.  Roll Eyes
    "The greatest general is not the one who can take the most cities or spill the most blood. The greatest general is the one who can take Heaven and Earth without waging the battle." ~ Sun Tzu

  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #174 - August 09, 2011, 03:24 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on August 09, 2011, 02:46 AM
    ... with firearms and armoured vehicles.

     *yawn* ...oh no carrying visible firearms might traumatize those poor innocent people....
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #175 - August 09, 2011, 03:26 PM
    Quote from: deusvult on August 09, 2011, 04:42 AM
    clearly visible firearms and armored vehicles aren't totally necessary.  What you mean is a show of force to protect lives and property.  It doesn't require firearms, but a lot of man power and non lethal weapons such as bean bag guns, shields, and tear gas only used defensively.    

    Well yeah that is exactly what I said just 2 posts later. Water cannons, plastic bullets, tear gas, and maybe tasers and above all more manpower.
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #176 - August 09, 2011, 03:32 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on August 09, 2011, 08:32 AM
    It's easy to condemn violence on the streets and wash our hands of it. That's something we should all do. Harder to consider the underlying problems and tackle the rot of which this riot is only a symptom.

    The underlying problems that make people animals steal off an injured boy or burn businesses of working class people?  Cheesy
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #177 - August 09, 2011, 03:41 PM
    Riots caused by society or lazy, thieving pricks, say experts

    Quote
    THE London riots are the inevitable consequence of a society that includes some arseholes who like to steal things instead of working, experts claimed last night.
    Sociologists said the devastation across the capital was the direct result of either social exclusion and government cutbacks or some young, inner-city pricks finding a flimsy excuse to set fire to Carpetright.

    As the city's often neglected underclass of dicks, twats and fuckers, let out a desperate cry of opportunist theft, Waterstones in Clapham was only spared after staff hurriedly removed the Stars of the Jeremy Kyle Show Pop-Up Book from the window.

    Dr Tom Logan said: "I'm a sociologist, which means three things - I have an appalling education, I have very little money and most of the time I am unbelievably bored.

    "And yet I have only a fairly small inclination to set fire to some shops while refreshing my tracksuit collection.

    "You see, some people are just dicks, but sometimes even dicks like an excuse."

    Rioter Martin Bishop said: "I'm not entirely sure who is to blame for me wanting to steal things and then set fire to the building where those things used to be.

    "But it is nice to have the flimsy excuse. It makes me feel more mature."

    Meanwhile, as former England cricket captain Alec Stewart began assembling a posse of vigilante test heroes, seismologists reported a sudden lurch to the right as people who own tagines found themselves calling for the immediate deployment of the Parachute Regiment and a couple of RAF Tornadoes.

    Julian Cook, a planning consultant from Finsbury Park, said: "As long as it doesn't get too 'Bloody Sunday' I think it could teach them a valuable lesson about property rights and the rule of law."

    But Dr Logan stressed that long after the fires had been extinguished debate would continue to rage over what turned these dicks into the fuckers they are.

    He added: "I suspect it'll be easier if we all just agree to blame Carpetright."

  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #178 - August 09, 2011, 03:43 PM
    SHITTT they've got to West London.. This is getting worse.. It's got to my local neighboring towns.. Terror couch
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #179 - August 09, 2011, 03:49 PM
    Quote
    ...and government cutbacks or some young, inner-city pricks finding a flimsy excuse to set fire to Carpetright.


    Well to be fair, we've all wanted a chance at taking down Carpetright; Those ba****ds and their low low prices on kitchen laminate! Dont even get me started on their near unlimited choice of budget lino finmad
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