5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?

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- WhoMan
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5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
OP - August 15, 2011, 02:47 PM

Hi everyone,

I have only been a member here for a short while, but I have noticed that many members simply repeat "errors" or "objections" commonly said about Quran with little or no evidence/research, without thinking. Similar to what I have found in Muslim forums when they allege things about Quran etc.

So I was thinking, if there are a few prominent members who know their stuff, wish to discuss with each other and then list their 5 strongest arguments/objections against Quran, we could list them here, then they can be analysed, by me and others.

I dont know if this has been done before, but its just an idea. Might be helpful for everyone, including me.

Please note, I am not a Muslim and I do not follow Traditional Islam. I have researched Islam/Quran quite a bit however. See my intro post.

Let me know your thoughts.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #1 - August 15, 2011, 02:53 PM

No thanks. Not in the mood to watch you perform mental gymnastics in trying to rationalise absurdities in the qur'an.
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #2 - August 15, 2011, 02:58 PM

^ +1

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #3 - August 15, 2011, 03:05 PM

I'm just going to list my own problems with the Quran here. I'm trying to keep as open a mind as possible and understand the Quran in as liberal a way as possible and ignore problems with literalist interpretations.

My problems with the Quran:

- It assumes free will exists
- Morality is based on a reward/punishment system
- Implies that science -- observation of the universe -- leads to theism -- I'm not convinced by any rationalistic approaches to religion and the only argument for theism I respect is the argument from personal experience/hidaya/fitra
- Hell. Metaphorical or not, those verses should *not* be in a holy book written by a perfect, all-loving god
- Eye for an eye morality (compare with Christian teachings)
- Too much emphasis on legislation and minute matters
- Obedience is more important than morality (eg. Abraham's sacrifice story, good deeds being useless without belief. Compare with the Buddha commanding his followers to disobey him if their minds do not agree with what he says)
- The sexism
- The xenophobia (Do not take Jews/Christians as friends/protectors? Compare with the Baha'i Faith)
- Demands belief without hard evidence

Hope you don't mind the fact that these are more than 5, and only reflect (a few of) my personal reservations. This is a thematic thing, so I'm not delving into other matters like contradictions or creationism, but only discussing why I disagree with important concepts in the philosophy of the Quran.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #4 - August 15, 2011, 03:22 PM

Also, for me, this isn't a debate. I do not seek to convince you of what I think. I am just sharing my own thoughts.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #5 - August 15, 2011, 03:24 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on August 15, 2011, 02:53 PM
No thanks. Not in the mood to watch you perform mental gymnastics in trying to rationalise absurdities in the qur'an.

+2
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #6 - August 15, 2011, 03:26 PM

Quote from: WhoMan on August 15, 2011, 02:47 PM
I have only been a member here for a short while, but I have noticed that many members simply repeat "errors" or "objections" commonly said about Quran with little or no evidence/research, without thinking. Similar to what I have found in Muslim forums when they allege things about Quran etc.

So everyone who's read the Quran - including large numbers of muslims - have misinterpreted it. And only a small fraction of human beings called Quranists - and you happen to be one of them - truly understand the message.

Do you realize what you've just written? Do you realize what you believe?

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #7 - August 15, 2011, 04:15 PM

harakaat,
I would need specifics and ideally the 5 strongest. If you list 5 specific ones, perhaps others will also consider those their strongest etc. So by the end of discussion, we can have 5 that are roughly agreed upon or prominent etc.

To the rest, dont run away. Lets discuss.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #8 - August 15, 2011, 04:19 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on August 15, 2011, 02:53 PM
No thanks. Not in the mood to watch you perform mental gymnastics in trying to rationalise absurdities in the qur'an.

I remember a time when I used to relish debates with Muslims over all sorts of details about Islam, the Quran, the Hadiths. I could literally talk for hours about contradiction in the Quran and morally repugnant Hadiths. Now this kind of shit bores me to no end, I can't even be arsed to glance over these debates anymore. It's not even that I don't believe in Islam as much as it is that I've become genuinely indifferent. :-/

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- Prince Spinoza
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #9 - August 15, 2011, 05:21 PM

Quote from: Jesus Christ on August 15, 2011, 04:19 PM
I remember a time when I used to relish debates with Muslims over all sorts of details about Islam, the Quran, the Hadiths. I could literally talk for hours about contradiction in the Quran and morally repugnant Hadiths. Now this kind of shit bores me to no end, I can't even be arsed to glance over these debates anymore. It's not even that I don't believe in Islam as much as it is that I've become genuinely indifferent. :-/

Same as. I actually remember you saying you were indifferent while I was still trying to debate on here with muzzies, and I was thinking... but, but, DON'T YOU WANT TO SAVE THE WORLD? And now it's like... fuck this shit. Believe what you want, just keep it out of my face.

There are other things to discuss, I've gotten bored of patting myself on the back for seeing the BS in Islam.
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #10 - August 15, 2011, 05:24 PM

Quote from: WhoMan on August 15, 2011, 04:15 PM
harakaat,
I would need specifics and ideally the 5 strongest. If you list 5 specific ones, perhaps others will also consider those their strongest etc. So by the end of discussion, we can have 5 that are roughly agreed upon or prominent etc.

To the rest, dont run away. Lets discuss.

No. Your tone in the OP tells me you're not interested in finding out what is right, just in trying to 'prove' that there are no contradictions in the qur'an. Which is a child's game and requires no talent whatsoever. But you have fun.
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #11 - August 16, 2011, 04:08 AM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on August 15, 2011, 05:21 PM
Same as. I actually remember you saying you were indifferent while I was still trying to debate on here with muzzies, and I was thinking... but, but, DON'T YOU WANT TO SAVE THE WORLD? And now it's like... fuck this shit. Believe what you want, just keep it out of my face.

There are other things to discuss, I've gotten bored of patting myself on the back for seeing the BS in Islam.

/half the forum

amirite?

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #12 - August 16, 2011, 04:10 AM

I think we all started wanting to discuss every little thing...now we are too tired of the same bullshit arguments over and over.

I wish parents everywhere could remove their veil of religion and see their kids for whom they actually are.
- AB71313
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #13 - August 16, 2011, 07:09 AM

Quote from: WhoMan on August 15, 2011, 02:47 PM
Hi everyone,

I have only been a member here for a short while, but I have noticed that many members simply repeat "errors" or "objections" commonly said about Quran with little or no evidence/research, without thinking. Similar to what I have found in Muslim forums when they allege things about Quran etc.

So I was thinking, if there are a few prominent members who know their stuff, wish to discuss with each other and then list their 5 strongest arguments/objections against Quran

I dont know if this has been done before, but its just an idea. Might be helpful for everyone, including me.

Lots of stuff already in this forum the search function could help.

Try this thread -
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10465.o
- MoeAlharbi
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #14 - August 16, 2011, 07:21 AM

WhoMan,

Don't know if I ever talked to you before, but I read your discussions with the other members on freewill and the Quran being vague or not. Let me tell you what's going on here. You are picking and choosing which interpretation fits your morality and what you believe is true, and all the other interpretations just got it wrong. This is what Prince means by mental gymnastics.

We're repeating our so-called "errors" because you're repeating yours. And and you're repeating because we're repeating, and it's becoming a vicious circle. It isn't because we're not thinking or researching enough. It's because you have a skewed way of determining what's true.

A brain dead monkey can tell us that we're repeating ourselves and not thinking, it doesn't make us look any dumber or it any smarter.

How do we know this? Take a look at the quote in my signature by previous Muslim member MRasheed. It was taken from this cancerous 73-page shitstorm we had a while back. Read how he talks about slavery and evolution, and read our responses. He may not have the same views as you, but he definitely shares the same mentality. It eventually became pointless and we grew tired of trying to get a single thing through the bulletproof bowlingball he calls his cranium.

Most of us don't want to debate someone like you because most of us don't want to waste our effort with another MRasheed.

Quote from: asbdsp#J on August 16, 2011, 04:08 AM
/half the forum

amirite?

damn right

I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
Can't it be, can't it be mine

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #15 - August 16, 2011, 08:08 AM

What MoeAlharbi said. I've wasted a good a chunk of my time debating him. When someone says the word "perfect" and "clear" are subjective, there's hardly anything left to argue.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #16 - August 16, 2011, 09:07 AM

Quote from: asbdsp#J on August 16, 2011, 04:08 AM
/half the forum

amirite?

wrong

98.34% of the forum

and my cats
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #17 - August 16, 2011, 12:44 PM

Quote from: MoeAlharbi on August 16, 2011, 07:21 AM
WhoMan,

Don't know if I ever talked to you before, but I read your discussions with the other members on freewill and the Quran being vague or not. Let me tell you what's going on here. You are picking and choosing which interpretation fits your morality and what you believe is true, and all the other interpretations just got it wrong. This is what Prince means by mental gymnastics.

We're repeating our so-called "errors" because you're repeating yours. And and you're repeating because we're repeating, and it's becoming a vicious circle. It isn't because we're not thinking or researching enough. It's because you have a skewed way of determining what's true.

A brain dead monkey can tell us that we're repeating ourselves and not thinking, it doesn't make us look any dumber or it any smarter.

How do we know this? Take a look at the quote in my signature by previous Muslim member MRasheed. It was taken from this cancerous 73-page shitstorm we had a while back. Read how he talks about slavery and evolution, and read our responses. He may not have the same views as you, but he definitely shares the same mentality. It eventually became pointless and we grew tired of trying to get a single thing through the bulletproof bowlingball he calls his cranium.

Most of us don't want to debate someone like you because most of us don't want to waste our effort with another MRasheed.

damn right

The dude has spoken

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #18 - August 16, 2011, 01:11 PM

Whoman u know the top 5 and u know the top 10. This is just another exercise in batting the ball away. So let me cut to the bit where u say we havn't proven the quran is false and move on.

So what football team u spport?
- strangestdude
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #19 - August 16, 2011, 01:13 PM

Who man seeing as you bypassed my post I'll be more blunt...

You think you're special.

You think that the Quran is a message produced by the creator of the universe, and you believe you are part of small fraction of humanity called Quranists, who understand the creator of the universe's message.

You believe most of humanity - including muslims - fail to comprehend it, but you are amongst the minority that is able to understand the message from the creator of the universe.

You think you are part of an 'elite'.

You think you are special.

An alternative to religion;

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #20 - August 16, 2011, 01:15 PM

now, now, strangestdude. he is special

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #21 - August 16, 2011, 01:27 PM

special is okay, being right, however is another matter.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #22 - August 16, 2011, 01:36 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on August 16, 2011, 01:13 PM
Who man seeing as you bypassed my post I'll be more blunt...

You think you're special.

You think that the Quran is a message produced by the creator of the universe, and you believe you are part of small fraction of humanity called Quranists, who understand the creator of the universe's message.

You believe most of humanity - including muslims - fail to comprehend it, but you are amongst the minority that is able to understand the message from the creator of the universe.

You think you are part of an 'elite'.

You think you are special.

this was one of my main problems with being a quranist - there was a sense of elitism that made me uncomfortable, i felt this in particular after meeting other quranists. but i think this can, quite unfortunately, be extended to a lot of (i dare say all) religous people in general. being religous makes you feel more special than non-religous people since you have been specially chosen and enlightened by a higher all supreme being. i'm not saying this in a bad way against religous people - it's human nature and an easy trap to fall into. it doesn't necessarily mean in all cases that religous people are arrogant in this manner - it's just a basic human need to feel special and 'good' that overtakes them - in this case with religion as the medium. of course people use all sorts of strange mechanisms other than religion to make themselves feel special and 'good' - i think it's a general strange aspect of human nature.

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #23 - August 16, 2011, 01:41 PM

my mother seemed more scared for me to be a quranist than agnostic. i dont know if thats a universal muslim thing

I wish parents everywhere could remove their veil of religion and see their kids for whom they actually are.
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #24 - August 16, 2011, 01:44 PM

really nice sig btw^^

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #25 - August 16, 2011, 02:37 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on August 16, 2011, 01:13 PM
You think that the Quran is a message produced by the creator of the universe, and you believe you are part of small fraction of humanity called Quranists, who understand the creator of the universe's message.

"He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise , but somehow just can't communicate very well!"
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #26 - August 16, 2011, 04:22 PM

Quote from: Kenan on August 16, 2011, 09:07 AM
wrong

98.34% of the forum

and my cats

Pssh we still have random thoght thread and love/hate thread. That's got to account for waaay more than 1.66% of the forum.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #27 - August 16, 2011, 04:25 PM

^huh? Wouldn't the 1.66% be the people who actually do care about debating Islam?
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #28 - August 16, 2011, 05:33 PM

Quote from: Hassan on August 16, 2011, 02:37 PM
"He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise , but somehow just can't communicate very well!"

EXACTLY!

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #29 - August 16, 2011, 09:06 PM

Quote from: MoeAlharbi on August 16, 2011, 07:21 AM
It was taken from this cancerous 73-page shitstorm we had a while back.

For the sake of any noobs who might be considering reading this thread, DON'T DO IT. I'm only to page 21 and I've already suffered several aneurysms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbQVaupPS80

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
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