That’s actually its biggest strength, and a sign for those who believe. It’s God speaking directly to mankind, explaining who He is, and instructing us in exactly what He requires of us. It’s the only holy text that does this with no other "deity" challenging its claims. The One God’s word is true.
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You don’t think the omniscient, omnipotent Supreme Creator of reality has a right to express arrogance? This is a perfect example of the fundamentally narrow-mind of the atheist, who is incapable of abstract thought beyond the familiarity of his immediate surroundings.
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*looks @ watch* That’s 1,500 years and counting, right? What metric are you using for that statement, Quod?
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Well, in my opinion that only represents you pulling a fake weakness out of thin air that doesn’t apply in any way, shape or form.
Islam is becoming less and less relevant in a world that's already moved on. Society has moved forward and the islamic world has no idea how to deal with this because of laws and customs meant for dark age Arabia. The quran is outdated and doesn't have the flexibility to move with the times. It's a book that worked for a certain period and place in history.
1.) There are no flaws in the Qur’an. All the flaws are in your prideful mindset. Let them go.
2.) Since you do not yet have faith in your heart, then just surrender, and do as He commands. Sustain the effort and He will bless you, strengthen your heart, and develop that surrender into true faith. But you must repent of your disbelief and surrender to Him.
1. You realise I could use that exact same argument right? Only difference is I can back my claim up.
2. If allah does indeed exists and wants me to know he exists, I will know.
lol The way to verify this is to take God at His word and do as He commands. Faith is the activating principle for the unseen.
You have a very strange definition of the word verify. Right, I'll head down to the nearest hindu temple then, since it's that easy to prove hinduism is the true religion using your method.
How would YOU know???
I read the quran.
Where are you getting that date from, and why should I take it seriously?
In the abrahamic faiths this is something that's been calculated multiple times via the theological timeline, and because you're a believer in the god of abraham.
Then why are you making the leap that that’s the way it was supposed to have happened? What justification are you using for thinking so narrow-minded about it? For someone who is not supposed to believe in the tale anyway, I would think you would be more open to other angles in which the tale COULDV’E happened so that it at least would make sense in the narrative. Your stubbornly closed mind and dismissal isn’t of much use to anyone.
This doesn't even seem to be a rebuttal.
Well, in what way could it have happened, using logic and knowledge of what we do know of scripture and the tales of the prophets? Tell me.
It couldn't. That's the point.
There was a time period in our past in which every one of these peoples’ named absolutely did experience a global flood catastrophe. In fact, that date if added to the narrative is one of the pieces that will make the whole Deluge event make stunning sense.
Aside from how they were wiped out so there weren't all these peoples' left alive to tell the tale and attribute it to their own gods, religions and mythologies? Sure, makes perfect sense. Why wouldn't Noah's children time travel to the past and future to tell the tale of how Zeus did it, another how Vishnu did it, maybe even Tiddalik at a stretch. Or, you know, different people at different times experienced flooding and thought it was their god flooding the whole world.
I am not one to uphold as authentic those hadith that make claims of the unseen that are not also backed up by the Qur’an, but aside from that, how DO we know that the first human wasn’t a giant? Homo sapien are pretty old, in fact, old enough to have made our debut on earth during the Age of the Mega-Fauna. If a creature like Gigantopithecus could exist, then what kept our earliest ancestors from being huge, too?
Biology, genetics, etc.
There is zero proof that supports evolution, Quod, let alone “overwhelming” proofs. That is a fiction you’ve been indoctrinated with.
I've seen other people try to educate you on the evidence for evolution, which you seem to have forgotten.
It's not the fact that 99+% of the world's scientists hold to it. It's the, as you put it (quotation marks and all
) “overwhelming” proofs. We have fossils, we have DNA, we've explored the genome, and we have the tree of life inside of us. Unlike you, I don't take this truth as truth because of faith.
I have to wonder if you're unaware of the fossil findings that show the slow evolution of species. I have to wonder if you're unaware of universal DNA which shows all life is related, some related closer than others. I have to wonder if you're unaware of the genetic evidence. Are you aware we've sequenced the genome and can clearly see where we come from? Did you know you can read in the genes the whole history of life, and it absolutely confirms evolution? This isn't to be taken on faith, it's hard proven fact. Now, there is room for disagreement on the details. It's not one dogmatic theory, there are many, but there is no question that all life on this planet is related. It's all connected.
I'm wondering what you think when you look at the world. Do you disagree that dogs come from wolves? Is it impossible for you to imagine that huge dogs like Irish wolfhounds and rottweilers could have evolved from the same common ancestor as poodles, and dogs the size of rats that can fit in a handbag/purse? Is it unthinkable that lions and house cats and tigers could have the same grandparent? That if we traced the genealogy of a hawk, an eagle and a pigeon that they branched out from the same ancestors? And how does it look to you when you're presented, as you have been on this site before, with several fairly complete evolutionary records?
Why would it mention something like that even if it was true? What would that have to do with the instructions for building a Muslim ummah, and keeping you on the Straight Way? The few science tidbits the Qur’an did drop were mentioned for very specific reasons. Are you really critiquing the Book based on it not revealing secrets of the past that has nothing to do with its actual point on earth? Is that supposed to be a real criticism?
It would show true insight. Adam and Eve simply looks like the purely fictional invention of humans who had no real answers because they had no divine revelation. Frankly, if allah did exist, he wouldn't be an idiot. At the very least it could of been taught poetically/metaphorically.
Your idea of what is “proven fact” is pretty shady. Our understanding of everything you’ve mentioned thus far is liable to change dramatically in the next 15 years.
I've said nothing of the sort.
There are more humans alive now than there ever was, and logic demonstrates that all biological populations grew from smaller populations, all the way back to the smallest unit. Logically how could there NOT have been a first couple?
Because that's not how humans are. You quite simply cannot breed the entire species from one man and one woman. We need genetic diversity. Successive inbreeding, as would of been the case with Adam and Eve producing children, brothers and sisters procreating with each other down the generations is not a way humans can survive. The least of the worries is that after a few generations you become less and less fertile. Look into the impacts of inbreeding. You'll see why.
I refuse to believe you intend that to actually be a serious critique.
But you're fine with Adam and Eve and the great flood.
One of the biggest official criticisms against the Qur’an is that at no point does it ever make the attempt to explain anything in chronological order, so this is actually a strawman argument.
That doesn't counter my point in any way whatsoever. Rearrange the words whichever way you like, it's still wrong.
Why do you assume that it means “stars” in the strict technical astronomical sense? When the average person says “Wow, dude! Look at all the stars!” don’t we mean EVERY point of light we see in the sky, and not just the literal “stars?” He said the unseen spirits sometimes try to eavesdrop and they are chased away by mysterious points of light darting after them. The verse is pregnant with mystery, and creates far more questions than answers, yet your atheist mind snaps shut like a steel trap presuming to somehow know DEFINITIVELY exactly what it meant. That’s fundamentally ridiculous to me. God isn’t going to share the Secrets of the Unseen with us, not until it’s time, but He does tease us with hints a lot.
I'm very happy to see metaphor and poetic descriptions in the quran. However, when the quran says quite plainly "the stars are missiles", I think it means that, and I think that's because the writers of the quran believed that's what shooting stars were.
The Qur’an does not say women are defective in intelligence. It actually says something very specific about the way they think when it comes to a very specific thing, but the fact that you interpreted it as meaning they are ‘defective’ says more about you than the Qur’an.
Yeah, not believing someone's mental facility is better or worse based solely on what's between their legs is so common nowadays. Inshallah I will see the light and fight for the cause of allah to remove equality from the world.
You have a veil over your heart right now, clear as a blaring noise.
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The veil is there because you rejected your Lord. Surrender to Him faithfully and he will remove it. He’s merciful like that.
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Your pride caused you to reject your Lord and turn your back on Him, and the punishment is a veil preventing you from seeing truth. To gain this ability you must humble yourself in surrender to the One who made you. And yes, on your damn knees.
Everything you're saying is nonsense. I very humbly and very seriously looked at islam.
The veil is the consequence for what you did. A curse of consequence. The curse can be lifted only if your record of deeds begin to reveal that you no longer think the universe revolves around you. Bow down to your Guardian Lord who made you that the veil will be lifted, and you will have the Freedom of Seeing the Straight Way towards Allah.
I don't think the universe revolves around me. I think I'm an evolved primate who was born, will live and shall die. If there is a god or gods, I doubt he/she/it/they care at all about me, if they even know I exist. Before I was born I didn't exist, and after I die I will not exist. I'm a tiny thing in the grand scheme of things and the universe owes me nothing. The fact someone who believes the universe was in fact created with him in mind, that there's an all knowing all powerful being taking a personal interest in him, and that after death this all knowing all powerful being will reward said person with unimaginable pleasure and fulfil all desires for all eternity is accusing me of thinking the universe revolves around me is mind boggling.
You are confused. Everything that happens at all is in Allah’s will. Everything that doesn’t happen wasn’t in His will to happen. That includes choices that you decided not to make; it was in Allah’s will that you performed the way you performed, but you made the choice. God doesn’t control you. He allows you to act. THAT is His will, and whatever you decide to act in He allows. It is also in His will that you will be held accountable for what you decided to act in.
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What are you saying here, Quod? God said that you can’t force people to believe. He’s certainly not forcing you to do anything, but He is warning you that there will be an accounting for what you decide. That’s not “force,” that’s a warning. “Force” would be an angel grabbing you by the back of the head and manhandling you through the motions of salat. God allows you to do whatever you want. There is no compulsion. Your actions decide whether you want to go to hell or not. It is literally up to you.
Everything you've just said is utter bollocks. You contradict yourself with each sentence. You also seem to be unaware of what islam itself teaches. Our actions and ultimate fate is decided by allah before we're born. There's no way around this teaching that places blame on the individual.
Sure, if there was no such thing as God, spirit, and the message. But all of these things are real, and God told you the truth of the matter and said to believe in it is a requirement of your surrender. There’s no more that need be said about it.
Proof?
All you have to do is surrender to Him and do as he commands and you will receive infinite bliss. That’s all. There is nothing more merciful than that. But to throw that infinite bliss away over pride? There is nothing more stupid.
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Honestly it’s common sense just to surrender and do what He said. If you are wrong then you’ll get infinite bliss, and if you are right you’ll get the nothingness of the void. But if you instead choose atheism and you are wrong…? That’s a no brainer. Why take the risk? Especially if you have an issue with “torture it forever and ever and ever.”
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If you actually end up in hell it will definitely be a common sense issue. A complete lack thereof.
What if you believe in the wrong god? What if every time you pray to allah you're pissing the real god off more and more?
That’s why the operating principle is “faith.” Just do it.
I'm sure that will be great comfort when you're burning in hell for all eternity for not acknowledging Jesus as god, the way, the truth and the light.
Evolution is a pagan religion (“Praise Darwin!”) pretending to be a legitimate aspect of science with not a single fact to support it. It is a house of cards with true believers like yourself upholding it purely by faith. It will be a poor substitute indeed for an infinity of bliss, and it won’t save you at all from the alternative.
Obviously you have no idea what paganism actually is. Also, I don't believe in evolution. Evolution is not a matter of faith. I don't "believe" in evolution, i simply accept reality. I judge something by the evidence available to me. Are you aware of how many things are based on evolution, like medicine? If evolution were false, it wouldn't work. If it really is false, if all these evidences are wrong, explain how. And when you win the Nobel Prize and shake the foundations of so many fields, I will be the first to congratulate you. Because honestly, I want to know what's true. If evolution is not true, I want to know, You're very fond of telling me what I believe and why. You could just ask me what my views are like a normal person.
The veil over your heart is making you talk crazy again. The Big Bang Model for the universe’s origin’s 100% support what the Qur’an says about it. Allah said the universe had a definite creation point in the distant past, and Big Bang confirms this miracle as true. Remember at first the atheists just assumed the religion was lying, and so theorized that the universe was eternal and never had a beginning.
My understanding of physics isn't what it could be. I'm not even sure it would be right to say the universe had a definite creation point. There was a point when the universe in it's current form did not exist, but if the big bang was the birth of time I don't even know if terms like finite and infinite are even relevant. I have no view on it because I don't have enough knowledge of the pre-big band universe to have a view. However, I know enough about the post-big bang universe to know the quran got it wrong, as it does many things.
Quod it’s spread out like a carpet from YOUR perspective as a human standing on it. Do you see the curve of the earth from your normal eye-level perspective? Why would He describe the earth as it looks from the moon’s surface to 7th century Arabs? Does that even make sense? This is exactly how ridiculous people sound when they have that veil on their hearts and can’t see.
People were not stupid in the 7th century. If you told them what was real they could grasp it. Even many centuries before people were able to figure out the shape of the earth and other far more amazing things. In Greece it dates back to philosophical speculation in the 6th century BC but in the 3rd century BC the Hellenistic astronomy established the spherical shape of the earth as a physical given.
Aristotle observed that there are stars in Egypt and Cyprus which are not seen in the northerly regions and realised this could only happen if the world was round. He also provided physical and observational arguments. You can read them in his work Meteorology.
https://archive.org/details/workstranslatedi03arisuoftEratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth and the tilt of the Earth's axis with remarkable accuracy. He also calculated the distance from the Earth to the Sun.
Point being, people weren't idiots. If the quran really was true imagine the signs allah would have put in it.
That’s actually a great metaphor to describe the eventual destruction of the universe considering it’s been expanding out since the Big Bang.
Sure it is.
Considering the people in that particular time and place needed to master it at their level of understanding in order to spread it around the globe to all other people, why wouldn’t it be slanted towards that particular peoples’ cultural norms and mindset? Would the proud Arab have taken complete ownership of it, and so enthusiastically spread it around the world if it had instead had been slanted towards the cultural norms and mindset of the ancient Australian aborigine?
See my above point on people not being less intelligent just because they were around before us.
I 100% expect your “strongest arguments” to be on the same level of seriousness, and possess the same lack of insight. Try me.
Truly it would be the greatest battle of my life.
I wonder if the OP will take any of MRasheed's posts to add to his own arguments.
Topic: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?