Hi guys,
new here and I'm replying, 'cause I found the topic to be interesting.
The same mythical stories are built around the (probably) mythical figure of "Jesus of Nazareth".
It was long suspected, that despite the claims of the Christians, neither are there any contemporary accounts of the existence of a man called "Jesus of Nazareth", nor is there any evidence for the most basic "facts" about his life.
For example (as archaeology tells us pretty accurately), the town of Nazareth was an area which was rarely populated; in fact, it was not populated for HUNDREDS of years, until the 80s of the 1st century.
So it is quiet impossible for a man to have been there, who supposedly died in the 30s, when said town didn't exist at his time and nobody lived there for over half a century after his death.
That's like claiming that an American man, right after first World War, in 1918, Bugs Bunny set foot on the moon.
And then two thousand years later, we find out that no, there was no one, who could've been there by that time, because the Americans landed on the Moon half a century later. And the more we look into the "evidence", the more we realize, that there was no man named "Bugs Bunny".
As far as being an Atheist and debating Muslims, I don't think that knowing the Qu'ran really helps. Knowing the accounts of the life of Mohammed is enough (and the contradictions therein) . Islam is NOT different from Christianity, as it makes the same claims to omniscience and omnipotence, which are EASILY proven to be wrong.
Yes, you can not fully disprove the existence of A God, but the claims made by Theists (as opposed to Deists), are easily shown to be false.
Here's a SIMPLE, yet extremely powerful presentation of the illogical "reasoning":
- all monotheistic religions claim that God is omniscient
- all monotheistic religions claim that God is omnipotent
a.) God knows everything; the past, present and future
b.) God knows everything you will think, do and feel during your life
c.) Since God knew everything about what you will think, do and feel, during your life, he already knew of all your decisions
d.) For God to know what (him being omniscient), the Universe has to be deterministic, as God needs to know what you will do the moment you were born (14.7 bn years after the Big Bang), when you are 5, 17 or 63.
e.) Since God is omniscient and the Universe therefore is deterministic, God already knew, how and where it all starts, how it all develops and how and where it all ends
f.) you have ABSOLUTELY (superlative) no influence on what will happen, no matter what, because otherwise God wouldn't know what you will do at some point in your life, thus, he wouldn't be omniscient.
g.) you don't have free will, just an illusion of it, God is omniscient and omnipotent
h.) since God knew what God will do, there is no "mercy", because there is no suspension of the deterministic order; God CAN NOT surprise himself, by "changing It's mind" when it sees you pray/help someone/repent, because It knew it RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING
i.) since there is nothing which surprises God, because God needs to be omniscient, God CAN NOT be omnipotent, because he can't surprise himself/change his own plan/make the world to be different than It had envisioned, when It created it
j.) check-mate, God can either be omniscient or omnipotent, but one depends on the other
k.) if God CAN change his mind and "save you from Hell and eternal punishment", than It has changed Its plan - no omniscience
l.) A Theistic, omnipotent and omniscient God can NOT exist (!!!)
That's it. Ponder this for a while; an analogous example? God creates the world on monday morning, knowing that on thursday you will kill a man, on sunday you will die...........how can an omniscient being NOT KNOW THIS? If said being knows this all along, HOW CAN IT BE OMNIPOTENT, if it already knew that & then CHANGED ITS MIND? It's impossible.
Btw, it doesn't matter if said God is good or bad, just or "merciefull". He can not break or suspend his own rules, because he already knew it, that he will.
That's for the Theistic claims. They are nonsensical. A Theistic God DOES NOT EXIST.
Now for the Deistic claims.
a.) some entity designed and created the Universe.
b.) the Universe is non-deterministic, therefore said entity does NOT know everything that will happen in the future, therefore it is not omniscient
c.) since the "power of a prophet" depends on knowing future events, so on both the omnipotence and omniscience of said being, said entity does NOT possess any of these features
d.) said being can interfere into human affairs or suspend the laws of nature, because said entity can change its mind (!!!)
e.) such changes of the laws of nature are not only observable, but would prove the suspension of said "laws of nature" at any given time, as otherwise the DETERMINISTIC nature of the Universe would always lead from A to C, if we knew A and B. And we would know C the moment we know B, because we can extrapolate the future in a DETERMINISTIC world. This argument for a deterministic Universe is called "Laplace's demon" and is taught as the #1 fallacy when it comes to "predicting future events".
BUT, said "Laplace's demon" is NECESSARY for a Theistic God to exist.
f.) a non-omniscient, non-omnipotent being could've made the Universe the way it began (e.g.: set the initial parameters), WITHOUT KNOWING EXACTLY (read:deterministically!!!), what said Universe will look like in 10, a billion or 10 billion years. An experiment so to speak.
g.) since the Universe is shown to be non-deterministic, said entity, even if it possessed unbelievably advanced technology, couldn't PREDICT a future state of the Universe, which is shown to be non-deterministic.
Ergo, a Theistic God is impossible, a Deistic "God"/Architect/Designer/Lab Experiment is possible, but there is NO EVIDENCE for it, but there is positive evidence, that the conditions in which said "God"/Architect/Designer/Lab Experimenter works, are NON-DETERMINISTIC as well; otherwise, he wouldn't need an experiment, as he would DETERMINISTICALLY know the outcome of said experiment (say, defined as step Z), when he set conditions A and through the laws he set up, can easily extrapolate state B, C, D, etc...
So no, there are no loopholes for a Theistic God, but there are (maybe?) some logical loopholes for a Deistic "God"/Architect/Designer/Lab Geek.
And Atheists do not debate with Deists, who must admit that there is no evidence for their hypothesis, they debate Christians or Muslims. And in their case, I've shown above, that their Theistic God can not exist.
Topic: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates