Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →
↑ ↓
CEMB → Forum → Feedback and Resources → Resource centre → On proselytism

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts

New Britain
by zeca
Today at 08:36 PM
Do humans have needed kno...
Today at 07:24 AM
Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
May 10, 2025, 09:16 PM
الحبيب من يشبه اكثر؟؟؟
by akay
May 10, 2025, 01:22 PM
Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
May 10, 2025, 10:45 AM
Lights on the way
by akay
May 10, 2025, 08:40 AM
What music are you listen...
by zeca
May 10, 2025, 08:24 AM
Pope Francis Signals Rema...
May 09, 2025, 05:32 PM
Gaza assault
May 05, 2025, 03:03 PM
Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
May 03, 2025, 10:46 PM
Kashmir endgame
April 24, 2025, 05:12 PM
عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
March 29, 2025, 01:09 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: On proselytism

 (Read 17395 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • On proselytism
     OP - August 24, 2011, 09:27 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on August 24, 2011, 09:02 PM

    I also feel an urge inside me to reach out to Muslims and gently wake them up. I was a teacher at an Islamic School for so long, and I think part of me feels I owe it to those youngsters and others not to remain silent now I can see what they cannot. As I always say I am driven by love for Muslims. I am happy to leave them - and defend them - in their faith if they wish. But I owe it to them to at least lend a hand to those who wish to escape.

    We here know perhaps best of all how difficult it is to reject Islam - and what baggage it leaves one with - and what it means for someone who's been through it to tell you 'you're not alone'.



    That is absolutely true with me, Hassan. I too felt I must do penance for the dawah I gave and the distribution of the Koran copies in Shepherd Bush market. Felt the urge of waking up Muslims from their 'hibernation'. And then saw it  as unethical. Yes, I see it unethical to share my doubts with the unstirred heart of a passive believer. He or she should go away and find their own doubts, I say whenever called by a muslim friend for a 'please come back to Islam I will be your friend' gesture.

    Unlike believers, I'm happy and content with my hard earned facts and will forever suppress the urge to exhibit them, unprovoked. I have a friend who calls me a reactionary for this sort of attitude. Maybe I am or maybe it is related to the importance of originality in doubts. Either way I'd rather be that than be the person who caused another to be attacked in their most dearly held belief systems.
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #1 - August 24, 2011, 09:29 PM
    Yours may be the right stance - and I sometimes feel I want to do the same. At the moment however I still have an urge to stand up and shout the "Emperor has no clothes!" - maybe it will pass in time.
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #2 - August 24, 2011, 09:33 PM
    Come on chap you did what you wanted to when you did dawah. There is nothing to do pennance for. You had to go through that experience to become who you are now....
    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #3 - August 24, 2011, 09:55 PM
    Hassan, I'm more determined now to read your story shortly just to find out whether the seeds of kufr came into your heart by the world's rude intrusions and shouts or not. Smiley

    I worked 6 months for Amnesty International and learnt one thing; there are so many worthy causes in today's world and that it is very hard to imagine one's individual contribution to ameliorating them. Nothing could be certainly achieved beyond self-satisfaction ( here I go again with my doom and gloom)

    Gladfly: there's a place for moral responsibility here, especially I was a sleeping cell of Al-Qaeda when it comes to theology. I taughted Islam to about 16 people during college and positively contributed into converting one person into Islam in the last two years ( ironically they are giving me dawah now). I repent by doing the decent things that I didn't do because they were islamically illegal. I just cannot act as if I were born atheist and free from all wicked baggage.
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #4 - August 24, 2011, 09:58 PM
    You are taking it to the extreme!
    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #5 - August 25, 2011, 06:14 AM
    Me, the two reasons I occasionally try to proselytize Muslims are:

    - when I think they would be happier without Islam, ie. when I see myself in them (yes, I'll be honest, I think a lot of us miss the certainty and the comfort that religion gave us, but I think none of us or very few of us actually really wish they believed in Islam again)
    - I feel I owe the LGBT community, the non-religious community, etc at least to *try* to reduce homophobia and hatred in this world

    A lot of my friends have left Islam since I did. I don't know if I had any hand in it. Though I've certainly been the main element in deconverting a couple of people.

    Though I'm still convinced that a true ex-Muslim has to find his own way out of Islam.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #6 - August 25, 2011, 05:48 PM
    Quote from: harakaat on August 25, 2011, 06:14 AM
    Me, the two reasons I occasionally try to proselytize Muslims are:

    - when I think they would be happier without Islam, ie. when I see myself in them (yes, I'll be honest, I think a lot of us miss the certainty and the comfort that religion gave us, but I think none of us or very few of us actually really wish they believed in Islam again)


    Here, and here alone, I cross swords with you. What makes you think, occasionally, that your happiness should be imported to other hearts? From the dawn of history man is trying to describe what makes him happy, let alone positing a unified definition for it that can be shared with others. A degree of presumption, if one may say so, appears in a such motivation.

    There are people, for instance, who do not want to be free, blissfully ignorant and ignoramus and I positively believe that they should be left to it. Social and moral coercion mustn't be practised on them. Yes, their idea is stupid ( actually it is this kind of stupid ideas that made stupid people so stupid) but to think one could conscript into others his version of personal happiness is imho a step too many.
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #7 - August 25, 2011, 05:54 PM
    Quote from: Whabbist on August 25, 2011, 05:48 PM
    Here, and here alone, I cross swords with you. What makes you think, occasionally, that your happiness should be imported to other hearts? From the dawn of history man is trying to describe what makes him happy, let alone positing a unified definition for it that can be shared with others. A degree of presumption, if one may say so, appears in a such motivation.

    There are people, for instance, who do not want to be free, blissfully ignorant and ignoramus and I positively believe that they should be left to it. Social and moral coercion mustn't practised on them. Yes, their idea is stupid ( actual  this kind of stupid ideas that made stupid people so stupid) but to think one could conscript into others his version of personal happiness is imho a step too many.


    Yep.  Afro

    Not everyone finds happiness in raw truth. Some people really really can't handle it. I know people like this who would physically collapse at the very notion of God not existing. Sad truth is religion will always exist in one form or another because a large chunk of humanity needs guidance.

    There's a line of reasoning that atheists often criticize. It's the idea that without fear of a God, people would indulge in all sorts of evil - and our retort is that we are good by our nature and don't need divine guidance to be good. But that's partially true. Some of us don't need divine guidance to be good.. but a lot of us do. There are psychopathic individuals who would do a lot more harm in the world if they really knew that there was no hellfire. Religion often provides illusions to certain kinds of emotionally weak or unstable people that keep them in check.
    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #8 - August 25, 2011, 06:07 PM
    You guys totally missed my point. I wasn't talking about those people, but people who I thought would be happier without Islam.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #9 - August 25, 2011, 06:28 PM
    Quote from: harakaat on August 25, 2011, 06:07 PM
    You guys totally missed my point. I wasn't talking about those people, but people who I thought would be happier without Islam.

    Still the point stands, dear harakaat wa barakaat. Unless they specifically tell you*, you can only assume. I know this is not general in life, we buy presents to people sometimes assuming they would love them. However to risk telling a child that his father is dead is totally different. By telling people, look there's no God, at least, you do not necessarily make yourself their well-wisher.

    I want to ask you one epistemological question: did you know that you would be happier leaving Islam until you left it? I think this also is a question in Linguisitics (mentalese: how could I know what I'm thinking until I have said it)


    * Which they can't because they have yet to experience disbelief.
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #10 - August 25, 2011, 06:38 PM
    There are some people I talk to, and I know that they *would* want to leave Islam but don't because they think it's the right religion.

    Are you telling me you can't think of anyone you'd be driven to help see the fallacies of Islam?
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #11 - August 25, 2011, 06:39 PM
    Also, as I like to say, I'd much rather have depressed tolerant people than happy homophobes/xenophobes.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #12 - August 25, 2011, 06:44 PM
    "did you know that you would be happier leaving Islam until you left it?"

    Yes. Especially right before my apostasy. Islam was making miserable, and you could say I wanted it to be wrong.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #13 - August 25, 2011, 06:45 PM
    "* Which they can't because they have yet to experience disbelief."

    I know I want sex but I have yet to experience it.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #14 - August 25, 2011, 07:05 PM
    Quote from: Whabbist on August 25, 2011, 06:28 PM
    Still the point stands, dear harakaat wa barakaat. Unless they specifically tell you*, you can only assume. I know this is not general in life, we buy presents to people sometimes assuming they would love them. However to risk telling a child that his father is dead is totally different. By telling people, look there's no God, at least, you do not necessarily make yourself their well-wisher.

    I want to ask you one epistemological question: did you know that you would be happier leaving Islam until you left it? I think this also is a question in Linguisitics (mentalese: how could I know what I'm thinking until I have said it)


    * Which they can't because they have yet to experience disbelief.


    I agree, but there needs to be the 'opportunity' to those who wish to find their way out - in the market of beliefs and ideas - there need to be voices that open up other possibilities for those who wish to pursue them. I think this forum and our videos are a very needed - let alone valid - contribution to that.

    I doubt Harkaat or anyone here goes up to individual Muslims and tells them they should leave Islam to be happy.

    Many Muslims are at the moment denied the freedom to make their own choice and denied the freedom to hear other perspectives. If Islam became like Christianity is today, CEMB and the term "Ex-Muslim" would be irrelevant.
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #15 - August 25, 2011, 07:13 PM
    I am in the same sort of predicament with my sisters, even though they aren't really religious, i feel as though that i have a responsibility to tell them that Islam is a load of tosh, but even when i approach a topic of discussion that may entail some sort of apostacy, it freaks my sisters out, point in case, when i told them i believed in evolution,

    it just freaked my eldest sis, which makes me think that not telling them all this wont necessarily deprive them of any added happiness they might be getting if they left islam, also the possible adverse consequnces of deconverting them might just cause more pain to my already broken family , its really frustrating.
    I make it rain - apparently?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh_I19_mKkU&list=SP1665576E7498BAB7&index=2&feature=plcp
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #16 - August 25, 2011, 07:17 PM
    Quote from: harakaat on August 25, 2011, 06:45 PM
    "* Which they can't because they have yet to experience disbelief."

    I know I want sex but I have yet to experience it.

     sex is instinctive and biological, disbelief is not.

    Quote from: harakaat on August 25, 2011, 06:38 PM
    There are some people I talk to, and I know that they *would* want to leave Islam but don't because they think it's the right religion.

     This is another philosophical turn, you cannot 'unknow' what you know as the truth, therefore hating it would be interpreted as hating the truth and something good. Because of this, these people you talk to have not left it.

    If you left it completely believing Islam being the truth, it is hard to imagine you would be happy, let alone happier, deep down. It is likely you would be between the Scylla of trepidation and the Charybdis of sorrow. Unless you have the ability to silence your conscience, which I think you do not.

    Your stance on unprovoked-ly lending doubts to believers reminds me of my Muslim days, when I used to see it as the sheer arrogance of the disbelievers to think they know better or that are more capable of choosing for me and somehow have the right tell me what makes me happy. How dare they? I would not go around doing the same to others.
    Quote from: harakaat on August 25, 2011, 06:39 PM
    Also, as I like to say, I'd much rather have depressed tolerant people than happy homophobes/xenophobes.

     Because I agree with the initial point I did not talk about it - not that I didn't see it. I like your professed selfishness though
    Quote from: harakaat on August 25, 2011, 06:38 PM
    Are you telling me you can't think of anyone you'd be driven to help see the fallacies of Islam?

    No, I can't. If I have a child and he or she wants to be Muslim because it makes them happy, I will definitely and unequivocally shut the hell up and leave my oars out of it.
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #17 - August 25, 2011, 07:26 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on August 25, 2011, 07:05 PM
    I doubt Harkaat or anyone here goes up to individual Muslims and tells them they should leave Islam to be happy.

    This is what I'm arguing against. I agree with the rest of what you said.
    Otherwise, I'd ask myself what else am I doing here? Those who come up to you and give you dawah and those who come to this place and try to bring back brothers and sisters to Islam ARE bringing it to themselves and asking for it. Someone recently have posted asking questions they did feel comfortable asking Iman, in this case, they're not tricked into happiness/disbelief if they became convinced Islam is a pack of lies. They are well aware of the murky waters. Doubts imho should be directed at dawah effects, no one is denying or questioning the correctness of that. On the same base I think maybe, maybe, just maybe someday I'd write a book on Islam without seeing it as robbing people their sedatives and toys. 
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #18 - August 25, 2011, 07:34 PM
    "sex is instinctive and biological, disbelief is not."

    I can imagine life as a disbeliever, when I'm a Muslim, and decide it's something that would make me happy.

    " This is another philosophical turn, you cannot 'unknow' what you know as the truth, therefore hating it would be interpreted as hating the truth and something good. Because of this, these people you talk to have not left it. "

    I don't get your point here.

    "If you left it completely believing Islam being the truth, it is hard to imagine you would be happy, let alone happier, deep down. It is likely you would be between the Scylla of trepidation and the Charybdis of sorrow. Unless you have the ability to silence your conscience, which I think you do not."

    I don't see how this is at all relevant.

    "Your stance on unprovoked-ly lending doubts to believers reminds me of my Muslim days, when I used to see it as the sheer arrogance of the disbelievers to think they know better or that are more capable of choosing for me and somehow have the right tell me what makes me happy. How dare they? I would not go around doing the same to others."

    You felt that way? I felt as though everyone *owed* me an explanation of their beliefs so I'd have my own beliefs challenged and I'd be closer to finding the truth. Also, I believe you *owe* it to people to challenge their beliefs and sow the seeds of doubt in their hearts. Everyone has the right to have his belief challenged. Not doing so would be falling into the same "mistake" you avoid by making the judgment that Islam would make them happier.

    My challenging someone, I'm not forcing them to accept my belief. I'm opening possibilities for them. By *not* challenging them, in a way, it's like I'm forcing them to be Muslims. And I think that's very selfish.

    "I like your professed selfishness though"

    I'm not being selfish. I just don't want Muslim homophobes to raise gay kids who might end up committing suicide.

    Honestly, you're treating Muslims as children who'll have an emotional breakdown upon hearing your opinions. It's kind of elitist to think you're one of the select few who can handle atheism. Everyone has the right to be challenged, and those who cannot handle atheism will remain in Islam. Why do you think so many intelligent people are still Muslims? It's because they can't bear leaving Islam. It doesn't mean we should treat all Muslims as kids who might spontaneously explode upon being exposed to rationality :/

    "No, I can't. If I have a child and he or she want to be Muslim because it makes them happy, I bloody well shut up and leave my oars out of it."

    Challenging someone's opinion is NOT equal to depriving him of his freedom of conscience. Do you WANT people with different opinions to shut up and not talk to you about them?

    I know I don't want Muslims to shut up. I want them to present their best arguments to me, to work their butts off to figure out why Islam is the right religion and to share their information with me. Sure, sometimes I feel bored and people can be pushy with their preaching. But I would never wish not to be exposed to an opposing viewpoint.

    To summarize:

    - Assuming Muslims are kids who can't handle our "truth" is patronizing, almost offensively so
    - NOT challenging someone's opinion amounts to *judging* that Islam is good for them, which is just as bad as an atheist's judging of atheism as good for them
    - People who can't handle atheism won't deconvert from Islam. Their emotional bond to it will keep them there

    I've been facing many issues with nihilism and existentialism lately and I've been through a depression. Maybe leaving Islam caused that. But do I wish I was still a Muslim? Never. And I would resent you deeply if you had the chance to challenge my beliefs and give me the opportunity to renounce Islam but didn't out of fear of "disturbing" my "happiness", and because of that I remained a Muslim.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #19 - August 25, 2011, 07:35 PM


    The only responsibility anyone has towards siblings, younger family members, and friends is to emphasise to them the primacy of their free conscience over everything else. By being open about your own personal feelings towards Islam. And then letting them make up their own minds.

    This is a difficult balance to strike, because the coercive pressures bearing down on them can be overwhelming, but nevertheless, it has to be struck. The time will come when a pressure valve is needed to be opened, and you have to be available to open it when they reach that point, rather than pushing them towards it.

    Although I say it is a fine balance, and personal circumstances and individual experiences will dictate exactly how you should play it.

    Finally, the most important thing you can do after allowing them space to follow whatever path they choose, is to be there for them later in life, to support them if and when they need support.

    As long as they know you have found your way out, they will come to you in time, if and when they want to make their own way out. And then they'll need a friendly, loving, understanding hand to hold their hand. That is your only duty.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #20 - August 25, 2011, 07:37 PM
    There was a wonderful short story by Mahmoud Taymour about a young Egyptian who grew up in a village where they had a 'blessed tree' that they used the juice of to cure blindness. He hated this ignorance and went around leafleting villagers berating them that this tree only made them worse and standing on a soap box in the market place and where ever he could, to try and convince people to stop their ignorant ways and use the modern western medicines that were now available in the pharmacy in the nearest big town and how this will make life better for his village. But the people ignored his impassioned pleas and carried putting drops from the tree into people's eyes.

    Eventually the young man left for the west and eventually studied medicine in a western university. One day he discovered that an important ingredient for eye drops for the ailments suffered by the villagers came from the type of tree that the 'blessed tree' was a a species of.

    He rushed back to his village to tell them the 'good news' but found that after all these years they had now abandoned 'the blessed tree' and there was now a nice modern Pharmacy in the village. The 'blessed tree' was shabby and dying and was going to be cut down. The young man stood on the soap box again and now told them it was OK to use the tree and we should save it. But no-one was interested, as they stood in the queue at the Pharmacy.

    Point? lol Well for me it is you can't stop people running around shouting about the "truth" they've found and what they feel passionate about - and as they see it - even though they may only see a small picture - it's what makes us alive and human. Even though the end of the day we are all like those blind men feeling a different part of an elephant and arguing about what an elephant looks like.

    Man always has - and always will - feel the urge to pass on his 'truth' - it doesn't matter - it's what makes the human experience so interesting.

    Wa Allahu 'Alam  grin12


  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #21 - August 25, 2011, 07:39 PM
    Islam made me very happy when I believed  Cry
    Now I know the truth, am not unhappy, but something is missing, no consolation whenever anything bad happens.

    Teach us to care and not to care / Teach us to sit still.
    What do we live for; if it is not to make life less difficult to each other
    You are the music while the music lasts.
    T.S.Eliot
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #22 - August 25, 2011, 07:41 PM
    Quote from: billy on August 25, 2011, 07:35 PM
    The only responsibility anyone has towards siblings, younger family members, and friends is to emphasise to them the primacy of their free conscience over everything else. By being open about your own personal feelings towards Islam. And then letting them make up their own minds.

    Also, the most important thing you can do after allowing them space to follow whatever path they choose, is to be there for them later in life, to support them if and when they need support.

    As long as they know you have found your way out, they will come to you in time, if and when they want to make their own way out. And then they'll need a friendly, loving, understanding hand to hold their hand. That is your only duty.


     I could not possibly agree more.


    Quote from: Fara7 on August 25, 2011, 07:39 PM
    Islam made me very happy when I believed  Cry
    Now I know the truth, am not unhappy, but something is missing, no consolation whenever anything bad happens.

    وشهد شاهد من اهلها
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #23 - August 25, 2011, 07:42 PM
    Well put, Hassan!

    Basically, my position is that with certain Muslims, challenging their beliefs is the moral thing to do.

    Quote from: Fara7 on August 25, 2011, 07:39 PM
    Islam made me very happy when I believed  Cry
    Now I know the truth, am not unhappy, but something is missing, no consolation whenever anything bad happens.




    Do you wish you were still a Muslim?
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #24 - August 25, 2011, 07:46 PM

    Its all a fine balance. Sometimes it might be right to be upfront and provoke them with your views and rejection of Islam. But sometimes, maybe most often than not, intervention can be done by example and by playing the long game, simply by making it known what your views are, and letting them know you flourish away from religion. All of a sudden, an alternate possibility, an alternative universe and an alternative sky has been opened up to them. But it may take a while for them to understand this. Which is why it is the long game.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #25 - August 25, 2011, 07:49 PM
    Exactly -- my position is that sometimes rational argumentation is the way to go, with some Muslims.

    Jesus, Whabbist, you're making me feel like I'm some cold-hearted monster.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #26 - August 25, 2011, 07:53 PM
    Quote from: harakaat on August 25, 2011, 07:42 PM
    Do you wish you were still a Muslim?


    Naaaah,  I am working on filling the gap left in my life, not sure what with, but I don't want to go back to that rubish.
    Teach us to care and not to care / Teach us to sit still.
    What do we live for; if it is not to make life less difficult to each other
    You are the music while the music lasts.
    T.S.Eliot
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #27 - August 25, 2011, 07:54 PM
    ^ Precisely my point.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #28 - August 25, 2011, 07:55 PM
    What we should do, Whabbist, is figure out how to help people who *do* leave Islam and figure out how to fill that void in their lives. Not let something horrible and evil fill it :/
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
     Reply #29 - August 25, 2011, 07:56 PM
    Obviously, I'm talking about orthodox, patriarchal, anti-sex, homophobic, guilt-inducing Islam. I don't think I'd ever bother trying to proselytize an ideological (not de facto) liberal Muslim.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »