On proselytism

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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #30 - August 25, 2011, 07:56 PM

Quote from: Fara7 on August 25, 2011, 07:53 PM
Naaaah, I am working on filling the gap left in my life, not sure what with, but I don't want to go back to that rubish.

Yep, me too.
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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #31 - August 25, 2011, 07:59 PM

Hassan I presume you enforced learning Islam on your kids in the past, but how are they now? Are they still Muslims, what did they feel/say when you left Islam?

Teach us to care and not to care / Teach us to sit still.
What do we live for; if it is not to make life less difficult to each other
You are the music while the music lasts.
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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #32 - August 25, 2011, 08:07 PM

Quote from: Fara7 on August 25, 2011, 07:59 PM
Hassan I presume you enforced learning Islam on your kids in the past, but how are they now? Are they still Muslims, what did they feel/say when you left Islam?

I certainly taught them about Islam when I was a Muslim, but I wouldn't use the word 'enforce' as even when I was a Muslim I always believed it should be their choice. Although I myself was quite devout - I was quite a liberal and open-minded Muslim parent. (Just as I am now quite liberal and open-minded - I don't think people fundamentally change that much)

Regarding my two eldest I never forced them to pray or fast if they didn't want to as I always believed they should want to do it themselves - if they didn't, then forcing them wouldn't help.

As for my two little ones, I have not been devout most of their lives and for the last 4 years openly not a Muslim - but I still take the attitude that whatever they choose is fine by me. I know they are all good kids. The only thing I want is that they have the facts to make an informed choice of their own.
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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #33 - August 25, 2011, 08:07 PM

To summarize:

- Assuming Muslims are kids who can't handle our "truth" is patronizing, almost offensively so

To be wary not to disturb another person his serenity isn't treating them as kids. It is called considerateness. I place happiness and beauty next to the truth. And to be more utilitarian/existential about it, the truth isn't more important than happiness. I'm not and do not wish to be The Prophet of Truth nor is Fara7 a kid to think that Islam had made her happy. If Islam were that bad, devoid of any worthy values, it would not have been embraced to hundreds of thousands. If I'm forced to use the adjective and the other is depressed, I'd say yes I was happy when I was Muslim. A different type of happiness, without defying it here.

- NOT challenging someone's opinion amounts to *judging* that Islam is good for them, which is just as bad as an atheist's judging of atheism as good for them

That is imho demonstrably false. The problem, it seems, is that you think the truth is the son of debate and that the clash of ideas has anything to do with moral imperatives or that always would give rise to anything tangible more than refining arguments. What if I do NOT want to challenge your opinion believing I do not have the Islamic knowledge and am too lazy to seek it? Does it make your noise more acceptable? No, it does not and sadly this the case with many Muslims. I commend your reply accentuating sometimes and that it's not formulaic.

- People who can't handle atheism won't deconvert from Islam. Their emotional bond to it will keep them there
I've been facing many issues with nihilism and existentialism lately and I've been through a depression. Maybe leaving Islam caused that. But do I wish I was still a Muslim? Never. And I would resent you deeply if you had the chance to challenge my beliefs and give me the opportunity to renounce Islam but didn't out of fear of "disturbing" my "happiness", and because of that I remained a Muslim. That's your prerogative and it does neither make it moral to me or that I'd care too much about it, with all due respect.
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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #34 - August 25, 2011, 08:12 PM

Quote from: Hassan on August 25, 2011, 08:07 PM
I certainly taught them about Islam when I was a Muslim, but I wouldn't use the word 'enforce' as even when I was a Muslim I always believed it should be their choice. Although I myself was quite devout - I was quite a liberal and open-minded Muslim parent. (Just as I am now quite liberal and open-minded - I don't think people fundamentally change that much)

Regarding my two eldest I never forced them to pray or fast if they didn't want to as I always believed they should want to do it themselves - if they didn't, then forcing them wouldn't help.

As for my two little ones, I have not been devout most of their lives and for the last 4 years openly not a Muslim - but I still take the attitude that whatever they choose is fine by me. I know they are all good kids. The only thing I want is that they have the facts to make an informed choice of their own.

Thanks for replying, that is good, same way I too behaved with the kids.

Teach us to care and not to care / Teach us to sit still.
What do we live for; if it is not to make life less difficult to each other
You are the music while the music lasts.
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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #35 - August 25, 2011, 08:13 PM

I'm still not getting what you're trying to say.

You're making a false assumption. That Islam makes all people happy.

I'm saying that some of those people would be happier without it. Through my interactions with them, I come to this conclusion. Therefore, I challenge their ideas.

By challenging their ideas, I'm not forcing them to accept my opinion.

You, by not challenging their ideas, are *assuming* that Islam is what is best for them. You are also depriving them of alternatives, which is in a way perpetuating the propaganda of Islam.

الساكت عن الحق شيطان أخرس

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #36 - August 25, 2011, 08:17 PM

"To be wary not to disturb another person his serenity isn't treating them as kids. It is called considerateness. I place happiness and beauty next to the truth. And to be more utilitarian/existential about it, the truth isn't more important than happiness."

Let's assume for a second that you're right and that happiness is more important than the truth. You're making the unwarranted assumption that Islam = happiness.

Also, that's definitely not considerateness. If you view people as beings with minds so fragile and opinions so tenuous that they would be shattered by your words, then you're being very patronizing and you *are* treating them as kids.

I maintain that people have the right to have their views challenged and not be treated as kids.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #37 - August 25, 2011, 08:22 PM

"If I'm forced to use the adjective and the other is depressed, I'd say yes I was happy when I was Muslim."

Do you wish you were still a Muslim?

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #38 - August 25, 2011, 08:31 PM

Quote from: harakaat on August 25, 2011, 08:13 PM
I'm still not getting what you're trying to say.

You're making a false assumption. That Islam makes all people happy.

I'm saying that some of those people would be happier without it. Through my interactions with them, I come to this conclusion. Therefore, I challenge their ideas.

By challenging their ideas, I'm not forcing them to accept my opinion.

You, by not challenging their ideas, are *assuming* that Islam is what is best for them. You are also depriving them of alternatives, which is in a way perpetuating the propaganda of Islam.

الساكت عن الحق شيطان أخرس

Maybe we are not getting each other's point hence the repetition. This will be my last here, maybe we should open a new thread about this question; it is immoral to leave people alone and let be muslims if that made them happy? And we can have the benefit of other people's opinions.

Now to address your points:
I'm making a valid assumption; if Islam makes people happy they should be left alone and laissez-fairism is the safest option imho.
No, I'm not depriving them from anything, simply because them being Muslim was not brought about by me or that alternatives are mine. I do not believe inaction here is immoral.
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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #39 - August 25, 2011, 08:34 PM

"it is immoral to leave people alone and let be muslims if that made them happy?"

I really don't think you understand my point of view. Did I argue that it was immoral to do that? Maybe you're tired and are reading this in a haste, maybe I'm tired and I'm not expressing myself well, but I'm sure of one thing: there's a communication problem here.

"if Islam makes people happy they should be left alone and laissez-fairism is the safest option imho. "

"If" being the key word.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #40 - August 25, 2011, 08:40 PM

Ah yeah, the plebeians can't handle the truth. We must protect their little minds from... exploding.
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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #41 - August 25, 2011, 08:49 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on August 25, 2011, 08:40 PM
Ah yeah, the plebeians can't handle the truth. We must protect their little minds from... exploding.

I know you're being facetious... but it's true.

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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #42 - August 25, 2011, 09:15 PM

I think for someone like my father, whose whole life is based around Islam, and who is pretty old now, finding out Islam is false might be pretty crushing. Or, he might be grateful that he found at all, and that he could spend the rest of his life on something else. Who's to say? I don't think I know any ex-Muslims who would normally claim they'd rather have remained Muslim. And the notion that some people can't handle the truth strikes me as very arrogant, and dangerous.
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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #43 - August 25, 2011, 09:28 PM

I don't think it's arrogance. I think it's perfectly fine to proselytize to younger muslims, but would you bother arguing with my 87 year old grandmother who talks to me regularly about how jinns are the cause of power outages in Dhaka? Some people need to be left to their illusions. I have no desire to break sandcastles, what's the point?

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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #44 - August 25, 2011, 09:35 PM

I don't think it's arrogance. I think it's perfectly fine to proselytize to younger muslims, but would you bother arguing with my 87 year old grandmother who talks to me regularly about how jinns are the cause of power outages in Dhaka? Some people need to be left to their illusions. I have no desire to break sandcastles, what's the point?

Good point

Little Fly, Thy summer's play
My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

I too dance and drink, and sing,
Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

Therefore I am a happy fly,
If I live or if I die.
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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #45 - August 25, 2011, 09:38 PM

Quote from: Jesus Christ on August 25, 2011, 09:28 PM
I think it's perfectly fine to proselytize to younger muslims

The problem is Whabbist seems to think you shouldn't challenge ANY Muslim's views.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: My Ordeal With Quran: Translation Project
Reply #46 - August 25, 2011, 09:42 PM

Quote from: Jesus Christ on August 25, 2011, 09:28 PM
I don't think it's arrogance. I think it's perfectly fine to proselytize to younger muslims, but would you bother arguing with my 87 year old grandmother who talks to me regularly about how jinns are the cause of power outages in Dhaka? Some people need to be left to their illusions. I have no desire to break sandcastles, what's the point?

Let's not pretend that was the archetypal character being discussed between harakaat/whabbist... And the point isn't that people aren't happy in their delusions and the truth mightn't be useless to them - I was taking issue with the idea that some people cannot handle the truth, and that this was reason enough to deprive them of it. I'm not arguing about desire as such, heck I can't really be arsed to proselytise to anyone. And only half-so when someone is actually asking for an argument...
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On proselytism
Reply #47 - August 25, 2011, 09:53 PM

So Whabbist and I have been arguing about this on another thread and we decided to create one just for it. This started when I pointed out that I would challenge a Muslim's beliefs when I saw myself in him and thought he would be happier without Islam -- that he would leave it if he could, but because he thinks it is right, he cannot.

Whabbist, as I understand his position, thinks that no Muslim's viewpoint should be challenged because the psychological impact of such a challenge would devastate said Muslim.

I opined that in certain cases, it was the moral thing to do to argue against Islam with a Muslim. Muslims who are clearly miserable in their faith, who have to live with cognitive dissonance, LGBT youth who have to live with feelings of shame and guilt... and those who're truly seeking the truth.

Whabbist thinks it's none of our business and we shouldn't presume to know what's better for that person.

I pointed out that not challenging their faith was a de facto presumption that Islam was better for them. That challenging their faith opened up new possibilities and is not the same as shoving one's views down their throats, and that keeping quiet would perpetuate the Islamic socialization they've been experiencing all their lives.

Lastly, I asked: Do you know any ex-Muslims who would honestly, truthfully say they'd rather be believing Muslims?

I pointed out that people who are most likely to find atheism unbearable wouldn't even think of leaving Islam, making his argument a bit irrelevant.

Whabbist, please correct me if I've misrepresented your position.

Please share your thoughts with us, everyone.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: On proselytism
Reply #48 - August 25, 2011, 10:03 PM

Unfortunately I can not merge the thread with posts made before your OP, to sit after your OP, as they were created before you started this thread so they have been merged at the front automatically.

This means your question no longer makes sense.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: On proselytism
Reply #49 - August 25, 2011, 10:05 PM

.
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Re: On proselytism
Reply #50 - August 25, 2011, 10:12 PM

Thank you for opening this for others.
I want to you correct on this:
Quote from: harakaat on August 25, 2011, 09:53 PM
Whabbist, as I understand his position, thinks that no Muslim's viewpoint should be challenged because the psychological impact of such a challenge would devastate said Muslim.

No, on the contrary, I believe that a muslim's viewpoint should be challenged in two conditions when;
a) this muslim gives you dawah
B) this muslim criticises your disbelief.

So writing a book on Islam for example does not come into that, because you are not directing it at a particular individual. If an individual wants to read your book or in our case here in CEMB and wants to read, this muslim is bringing it to themselves and one is merely reacting to it. So I allow it with conditions and not always in principles.

I made and make this distinguish because of the psychological impects aforesaid by me and Harakaat.

The rest of the points is a fair representation.
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Re: On proselytism
Reply #51 - August 25, 2011, 10:25 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on August 25, 2011, 09:15 PM
And the notion that some people can't handle the truth strikes me as very arrogant, and dangerous.

Not sure who is claiming that - certainly not me. Only that an aggressive Da'wah approach of actively proselytizing to to people who are content with their lives and don't want to know is wrong.

Like you, no doubt, I mix with a lot of very nice and good Muslims. I don't go around telling them their faith is bullshit (even though sometimes I feel like it ), but I'm there if *they* want to talk - they know I don't believe - so when and if they're ready - I'm there.

This forum and CEMB vids are the same. No-one has to come here or watch the vids, but they are there if they want to - it's their choice.
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Re: On proselytism
Reply #52 - August 25, 2011, 10:31 PM

I think it comes down to judgment about what each situation and individual needs demands. This has to do with circumstances and temperament. There are times when plain speaking is advisable. There are times when stepping back and taking a gentler approach works when it comes to people you have personal relationships with.

You use your own compass.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: On proselytism
Reply #53 - August 25, 2011, 10:36 PM

SEE, WHABBIST?

HMPH.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: On proselytism
Reply #54 - August 25, 2011, 10:57 PM

Quote from: Hassan on August 25, 2011, 10:25 PM
Not sure who is claiming that - certainly not me.

Well JC for one. And I think Whabbist is implying as much (feel free to correct me, whabbist).

Quote
Only that an aggressive Da'wah approach of actively proselytizing to to people who are content with their lives and don't want to know is wrong.

Like you, no doubt, I mix with a lot of very nice and good Muslims. I don't go around telling them their faith is bullshit (even though sometimes I feel like it ), but I'm there if *they* want to talk - they know I don't believe - so when and if they're ready - I'm there.

This forum and CEMB vids are the same. No-one has to come here or watch the vids, but they are there if they want to - it's their choice.

I don't disagree with any of that. I like to think I have a gentle and non-pushy approach to Muslims, usually.
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Re: On proselytism
Reply #55 - August 25, 2011, 10:59 PM

Quote from: Jesus Christ on August 25, 2011, 09:28 PM
I don't think it's arrogance. I think it's perfectly fine to proselytize to younger muslims, but would you bother arguing with my 87 year old grandmother who talks to me regularly about how jinns are the cause of power outages in Dhaka? Some people need to be left to their illusions. I have no desire to break sandcastles, what's the point?

That's my perspective too. I have a grandfather who has diabetes and has suffered a heart attack, he's a born again christian and when he tries to invite me to his religion I politely decline without offering any counter arguments.

I have no qualms about debating muslims online or presenting counter-perspectives, people who come online know they will encounter opinions that will challenge them.

Also I genuinely think that the group-think, misogyny, and barbaric laws that are propagated by most muslim sects should be countered, I think it impedes (genuine) happiness, and progress for humanity in general.

I share the concerns of Whabbist though. Leaving people in a vacuum after successfully challenging the foundations of the religious beliefs is pretty inconsiderate IMO. That's why I like dudes on youtube like; Evid3n3, Philhellenes, Thunderf00t, Theramintrees, and Therationalizer they present an alternative worldview (even if only a single vid) to religion alongside their criticisms.

Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan have done it brilliantly IMO, they both present the wonder and beauty of the universe, and the achievements of rational enquiry, alongside their critiques of magical thinking/religion. It's a kind approach.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: On proselytism
Reply #56 - August 25, 2011, 11:00 PM

Yes, Whabbist, why don't you share your perspective on providing ex-Muslims with an alternative, like secular humanism, upon leaving Islam?

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: On proselytism
Reply #57 - August 26, 2011, 12:07 AM

Quote from: harakaat on August 25, 2011, 11:00 PM
Yes, Whabbist, why don't you share your perspective on providing ex-Muslims with an alternative, like secular humanism, upon leaving Islam?

Why should or must I do that? They should go away and find out by themselves. What different does it make to substitute one group-think with another, if that what you meant? imho one that is able to debunk islam should be able to make his way around by learning humanism as they wish - I don't have to be part of it. The only part I could be of an ex muslim is to tell him or her that they are not alone and share what I been through when its right. Again, if an ex muslim asks me what I think or writes on a public forum like this, I may share my opinions.

As I told you, I take a laissez-faire approach/attitude not only here but when dealing with others in generally.
I spent the best part of the year reading alone. I found Islam to be false and left it. I found agnosticism and humanism as the best stance so embraced them. As you can see, I deliberately went out to find what is there against my faith and thus no one is responsible if I were to have a crisis of faith. I never listened to what atheists said because when they used to talk to me, I automatically would go 'this is the enemy of Allah in action'. The words that were hurled at me were ineffective and un-welcomed and it is my reading which led me to disbelief and not the Athan of Kufr by human shayateen.

I think we all agree on the fact that it takes courage and honesty with oneself to think for oneself and to disbelieve and not necessarily because Muslims lack in intellectual dixerity. 'Seek and you may find' is my approach and I do not intervene unsolicited, especially with individuals. After all there're no hasanat here and religion will remain with us as long as superstition occupies part of human minds.
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Re: On proselytism
Reply #58 - August 26, 2011, 12:12 AM

ITT: Pussies.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
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Re: On proselytism
Reply #59 - August 26, 2011, 08:26 AM

Quote from: Hassan on August 24, 2011, 09:29 PM
Yours may be the right stance - and I sometimes feel I want to do the same. At the moment however I still have an urge to stand up and shout the "Emperor has no clothes!" - maybe it will pass in time.

The way I determine my actions is very simple. If I were some how to contact the "me" of the past, what would the "me" of the present wish I had said?

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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