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Theme Changer

 Topic: Newbie

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  • Newbie
     OP - August 26, 2011, 08:49 AM

    Hi everyone. firstly I want to say thank you to all the members for very inspiring reading, it helped me feel better and it gave me hope and courage for others still in mental slavery.

    I am an ex-christian woman married to a muslim man, who became an atheist when trying to find islam. I found the religion so outrageous, my first reaction was to say to myself, christianity is way better. But then I had to face the fact that christianity is only another version of the same outrageous stuff and I just abandoned everything. I gave up belief in a god when I realised that nobody knew what it is and I decided it was dumb for me to believe in something I could not define. And the abrahamic god did not seem any different from the multitude of gods on offer on this planet. The last thing that convinced me was that god could not be omnipotent, because good cannot be cruel, creator cannot be destroyer and merciful cannot be vengeful. With the help of this forum and others, in particular the "famous" atheists on youtube, I got completely free. I have been browsing your forum posts for a long time and since I sometimes feel the urge to contribute, I decided to join.

    My husband is still muslim and though he knows I abandoned religion, he does not know I am an atheist. The idea would horrify him. But I do plan on telling him someday. We are expecting a baby and I fear confrontation in the upbringing. A small issue is the fact he does not want the kid to use a knife and fork by inserting the food into his mouth with the fork in the left hand, a big issue is his "obligation" to have him circumcised. He knows I don't like the idea of circumcision but he hopes I will get over it. We love each other very much and I think we will grow together in this experience.
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #1 - August 26, 2011, 08:54 AM

    Welcome Smiley

    This is not aimed at you in particular - but at many others here who also reject the idea that there may be a god (some supernatural power).

    Why is it that realising religion is bullshit, means there is no god?


  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #2 - August 26, 2011, 09:00 AM

    I don't think anyone here rejects the possibility of god's existence -- merely belief in god. And I think it's because, for many of us, the reason we believed in God was Islam Tongue

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #3 - August 26, 2011, 09:23 AM

    I used to get very irritated at the same thing. when I told some people I gave up religion they immediately assumed I was atheist when in fact for a long time I refused to give up believing in god. But I really wanted to get to the bottom of it all and the more I searched, the more I realised I did not know what god was supposed to be, as the characteristics attributed to him a extremely varied and conflictual. We hit a wall when trying to get to the bottom of it. Whatever force we say it is, well, why mysitify it, why not just use the name of that force? I find mystification to be a very dangerous practise because it leaves us open to blind faith and gullibility.

    One thing that really got me thinking was the first cause thing. Many people say that everything has an origin and this amazing universe had to be created, everything has a beginning. At first it seems logical. But that logic flies out of the window when you try and find a first cause for god. I am sorry, but the argument that god just is, does not need a first cause, was never created, is eternal, is not convincing to me, especially as an outsider to his creation. As well, this theory can also apply to the universe. so in conclusion if god can be independant from a first cause, so can the universe.

  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #4 - August 26, 2011, 09:31 AM

    You're so right about hitting a wall when trying to come to any conclusion about God. These days when people ask me what am I now, I just say "Agnostic Atheist".

    From Wiki:

    Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism.[1] Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know with certainty whether any deity exists.[1][2] The agnostic atheist may be contrasted with the agnostic theist, who does believe that one or more deities exist but does not claim to have absolute knowledge of such.[1]

    Examples

    Bertrand Russell uses the example of the celestial teapot. He argues that although it is impossible to know that the teapot does not exist, most people would not believe in it. Therefore, one's view with respect to the teapot would be an agnostic "ateapotist", because while they don't believe in the existence of the teapot, they don't claim to know for certain.

    Prominent atheist Richard Dawkins makes a similar point in The God Delusion: "I am agnostic only to the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at the bottom of the garden."[3]

    Some nonreligious people, such as author Philip Pullman, identify as both agnostic and atheist saying, "So I'm caught between the words 'atheistic' and 'agnostic'. I've got no evidence whatever for believing in a god. But I know that all the things I do know are very small compared with the things that I don't know".[4]

    History

    One of the earliest definitions of agnostic atheism is that of Robert Flint, in his Croall Lecture of 1887–1888 (published in 1903 under the title Agnosticism).

        The atheist may however be, and not unfrequently is, an agnostic. There is an agnostic atheism or atheistic agnosticism, and the combination of atheism with agnosticism which may be so named is not an uncommon one.[5]

        If a man has failed to find any good reason for believing that there is a God, it is perfectly natural and rational that he should not believe that there is a God; and if so, he is an atheist... if he goes farther, and, after an investigation into the nature and reach of human knowledge, ending in the conclusion that the existence of God is incapable of proof, cease to believe in it on the ground that he cannot know it to be true, he is an agnostic and also an atheist – an agnostic-atheist – an atheist because an agnostic... while, then, it is erroneous to identify agnosticism and atheism, it is equally erroneous so to separate them as if the one were exclusive of the other...[5]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #5 - August 26, 2011, 09:46 AM

    Interesting post Hassan, I did not know about agnostic atheism. I used to call myself ignostic though -

    Ignosticism or igtheism is the theological position that every other theological position (including agnosticism) assumes too much about the concept of God and many other theological concepts. The word "ignosticism" was coined by Sherwin Wine, a rabbi and a founding figure of Humanistic Judaism.

    It can be defined as encompassing two related views about the existence of God:

    The view that a coherent definition of God must be presented before the question of the existence of god can be meaningfully discussed. Furthermore, if that definition is unfalsifiable, the ignostic takes the theological noncognitivist position that the question of the existence of God (per that definition) is meaningless. In this case, the concept of God is not considered meaningless; the term "God" is considered meaningless.
    The second view is synonymous with theological noncognitivism, and skips the step of first asking "What is meant by 'God'?" before proclaiming the original question "Does God exist?" as meaningless.
    Some philosophers have seen ignosticism as a variation of agnosticism or atheism,[1] while others have considered it to be distinct. An ignostic maintains that they cannot even say whether he/she is a theist or an atheist until a sufficient definition of theism is put forth.


    But now I call myself an atheist because whatever god is supposed to be, it must be the sum of many influences , as most systems and forces are. To me, nothing escapes inter-dependancy in this universe. and in this universe, nothing is perfect. Friction and instability is needed for purpose. The main purpose of sentient life is to evolve. Why then would a perfect being live. When everything is in harmony life cannot exist. Total peace would mean total death. Where no forces struggle (vaccuum), no life exists. The chinese bagua has really helped me understand the basic laws of physics, through maths.

    I chose to search for truth instead of searching for god. No disrespect, but I prefer the search for truth.


    I love when Bertrand Russell says; believing in something because it is useful does not make sense, you must believe in something because it is true. And if you cannot establish whether it is true or not, then you should suspend judgement.
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #6 - August 26, 2011, 10:09 AM

    I totally identify with what Philip Pullman said:

    "I'm caught between the words 'atheist' and 'agnostic'. I've got no evidence whatever for believing in a god. But I know that all the things I do know are very small compared with the things that I don't know"
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #7 - August 26, 2011, 10:24 AM

    Ha, that's a really nice one, and so true...

    hey, tell you what I do believe in - I believe we have souls and I believe in the collective consciousness (which as a whole I used to believe in as god until I thought of myself as a moral coward for calling that god, and then also it excludes extraterrestrial life as in any form of life at all beyond planet Earth).

    I don't think shamanic beliefs are way out, I am convinced one can communicate with any energy (I used to call that praying). I do speak with ancestors at times, especially my late grandmother and my late dad, and it feels as though they are listening.

    Because I had so many para-normal experiences since I was a kid, I used to believe that it justified the existence of god. Like if there is a poison there has to be an antidote (need for protection from the unknown). Now I don't believe in evil as much as I used to, I just think there are lots of angry, unhappy beings out there that scare some of us.
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #8 - August 26, 2011, 10:25 AM


    Good luck, godless. Muslims tend to take the grooming of their children into Islam very seriously, no matter what they say when they marry a non believer.

    You've got a tricky life to negotiate - as long as you provide an outlet for your son that alternates the indoctrination of Islam with a wider, more liberal and open-minded appreciation of life and people, about equality, pluralism, against religious exceptionalism and sectarian notions, you'll have done OK.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #9 - August 26, 2011, 10:58 AM

    Thank you Billy Smiley

    I summed up what I feel in the proselytism post.
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #10 - August 26, 2011, 12:11 PM

    HI Godless!  parrot

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #11 - August 26, 2011, 12:12 PM

    Hi Stardust, lovely name!
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #12 - August 26, 2011, 01:14 PM

    Ha, that's a really nice one, and so true...

    hey, tell you what I do believe in - I believe we have souls and I believe in the collective consciousness (which as a whole I used to believe in as god until I thought of myself as a moral coward for calling that god, and then also it excludes extraterrestrial life as in any form of life at all beyond planet Earth).

    I don't think shamanic beliefs are way out, I am convinced one can communicate with any energy (I used to call that praying). I do speak with ancestors at times, especially my late grandmother and my late dad, and it feels as though they are listening.

    Because I had so many para-normal experiences since I was a kid, I used to believe that it justified the existence of god. Like if there is a poison there has to be an antidote (need for protection from the unknown). Now I don't believe in evil as much as I used to, I just think there are lots of angry, unhappy beings out there that scare some of us.


    me too  Smiley 

    A warm welcome to you!  And a dear friend of mine who had five kids said
    she loved being pregnant because its the only time in one's life that there are
    two souls in one body. 

    Congrats on the precious little one within!   far away hug

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #13 - August 26, 2011, 01:16 PM

    Oh Jinn and Tonic (really cool name too haha!) that post of yours is soooooo cute, thank you it made me break into a huge grin!!!! Gosh there are such a lot of nice people here.
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #14 - August 26, 2011, 03:58 PM

    Hi and welcome. Your story is similar to mine. Lol. I became an ex-Christian from doing way too much reasearch about Islam after 9/11 and other religions made me realized the Jesus was just an over-hyped hippy guy. I currently live with my step-mom who is crazy Catholic and my biological mom is also hardcore Methodist. My advice is, try not to make the subject of religion take up too much of your life. For me I like to say I'm agnostic, to entertain the idea of God as to not get into qualms with anyone, as a majority of the world does align themselves with some sort of deity. Having a peaceful existence with those around you is important instead of getting caught up in technicalities of life. Even if you don't believe in any religion the important thing is taking all the positive lessons from them and throwing out the bad.  That way some kind of middle ground can be found and.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #15 - August 27, 2011, 08:25 AM

    Wow, very interesting and unique circumstances that have led to your rejection of religion. I hope the best for you in raising your son with your husband. Give him love instead of fear and I think that you will be able to help him navigate through the Islamic veil that could cover his reality.

    Have a rabbit, and I hope you enjoy posting on the forum!  bunny

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #16 - August 27, 2011, 03:05 PM

    Hi and welcome. Your story is similar to mine. Lol. I became an ex-Christian from doing way too much reasearch about Islam after 9/11 and other religions made me realized the Jesus was just an over-hyped hippy guy. I currently live with my step-mom who is crazy Catholic and my biological mom is also hardcore Methodist. My advice is, try not to make the subject of religion take up too much of your life. For me I like to say I'm agnostic, to entertain the idea of God as to not get into qualms with anyone, as a majority of the world does align themselves with some sort of deity. Having a peaceful existence with those around you is important instead of getting caught up in technicalities of life. Even if you don't believe in any religion the important thing is taking all the positive lessons from them and throwing out the bad.  That way some kind of middle ground can be found and.


    Hi Sakura and asbdsp, thank you for your support. Sakura, with all due respect, I have to work on this for the sake of the children. Right now my family in law loves me, and especially my parents in law. But I had lost my entire family and friends and my mom is on another continent. I have a long lost brother who is far away. My family in law is my only support system. I am the favourite daughter in law amongst four (and they are all muslim)  and I am like the daughter my mother in law never had. I know I will lose all that when I refuse to circumcize my baby. And my husband will be devastated. I have to care.
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #17 - August 28, 2011, 03:48 AM

    Hey godless, and welcome to the forum. I really hope things work out for you! Here, have a parrot: parrot.
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #18 - August 28, 2011, 01:28 PM

    Welcome godless! Wish you all the best with raising your baby. I'm sure a compromise can be found and like others have said, if you can maintain the liberal, balanced side then in time your child might decide that it is preferable to religion Smiley

    It's great that you decided to sign up to the forum after lurking for so long  piggy

  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #19 - August 28, 2011, 06:50 PM

    Welcome to our humble abode, godless. hugs

    A lot of us are in awkward situations because of our loss of faith.


    Bertrand Russell uses the example of the celestial teapot. He argues that although it is impossible to know that the teapot does not exist, most people would not believe in it. Therefore, one's view with respect to the teapot would be an agnostic "ateapotist", because while they don't believe in the existence of the teapot, they don't claim to know for certain.

    yup,  that would be me. grin12

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #20 - August 28, 2011, 07:00 PM

    Hey Godless, late welcome parrot but a warm welcome nonetheless. Smiley

    I'm still in the process of trying to figure out whether I could have a belief in a soul, in para-normal communication and things beyond human explanation - for the time being, without the baggage of religion and expecially god.

    I'm not so open about these beliefs with the fear of being questioned about them and also the fact that I am wary of these beliefs at the moment, reading your introduction has given me a certain confidence that I shouldn't be afraid of voicing my opinion whether I could back them up or not, that's the whole point of learning right? Smiley

    Anyhow welcome, I hope you find what you are looking for here, and know that we're a great bunch of people who make CEMB such a wonderful paradise.
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #21 - August 28, 2011, 08:59 PM

    Hi Godlass, and welcome tot the forum! From me too you get a parrot  parrot
    In your opening post you wrote:

    ........
    I am an ex-christian woman married to a muslim man, who became an atheist when trying to find islam. ....

    My husband is still muslim and though he knows I abandoned religion, he does not know I am an atheist. The idea would horrify him.


    I don't understand that. You both left your religion. So what's the problem?

    Anyway, thanks for your posts  Wink

    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #22 - August 28, 2011, 10:32 PM

    Welcome to the forum godless.   Smiley

    My daughter is (ex) Christian, married to a muslim and has supposedly converted to Islam although imo she doesn't behave like any muslimah I've ever seen or heard of  Wink  They too have a child, a boy, that my muslim son-in-law insists will be circumcised in his country (Tunisia) when he is about 2 or 3 years old.   He's 17 months old now and even if my daughter can be persuaded and is prepared to allow it to happen then I'm going to do everything in my power not to let that come about.  If it's needed as a medical procedure then fair enough, otherwise a big NO as far as I'm concerned.

    So do you live with your husband and his family in his country and if so which one?   My daughter refuses to live in Tunisia and so he's stuck there trying to get a visa and she's living here in England and goes to stay with him several times a year at the moment.  I hope he does manage to get a visa and he comes to live here because I feel she has much more control of the situation here than she ever would have living in an islamic country.  yes



    "The greatest general is not the one who can take the most cities or spill the most blood. The greatest general is the one who can take Heaven and Earth without waging the battle." ~ Sun Tzu

  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #23 - August 28, 2011, 10:42 PM

    Hi Godlass, and welcome tot the forum! From me too you get a parrot  parrot
    In your opening post you wrote:

    I don't understand that. You both left your religion. So what's the problem?

    Anyway, thanks for your posts  Wink


    I think he is still muslim... she was a christian, and tried to research islam to understand it better, but then lost her faith in religion in the process.

  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #24 - August 28, 2011, 11:14 PM

    Welcome to the forum godless.   Smiley

    My daughter is (ex) Christian, married to a muslim and has supposedly converted to Islam although imo she doesn't behave like any muslimah I've ever seen or heard of  Wink  They too have a child, a boy, that my muslim son-in-law insists will be circumcised in his country (Tunisia) when he is about 2 or 3 years old.   He's 17 months old now and even if my daughter can be persuaded and is prepared to allow it to happen then I'm going to do everything in my power not to let that come about.  If it's needed as a medical procedure then fair enough, otherwise a big NO as far as I'm concerned.

    So do you live with your husband and his family in his country and if so which one?   My daughter refuses to live in Tunisia and so he's stuck there trying to get a visa and she's living here in England and goes to stay with him several times a year at the moment.  I hope he does manage to get a visa and he comes to live here because I feel she has much more control of the situation here than she ever would have living in an islamic country.  yes




    The very mention of circumcision makes me feel sick to my stomach and incredibly sad. Actually I never had a problem with male circumcision until I realised that my older son was very angry that he had been circumcised as a young boy. I get on wonderfully with my sons but the older one let slip a few years ago that he blamed me as much as his dad for letting him be circumcised.

    The truth was that I was powerless to resist because he was literally whisked away from me with no warning while we were back visiting my father-in-law on a short holiday. He had arranged it all unbeknown to us and my husband thought it would be a good idea to get it over and done with. I was not happy at the time about where and how it was done and the fact that we had no say in any of it. Cry

    Now years later I feel even worse because I know my son wishes it was never done.

    Perhaps your daughter could think of the impact it might have on him in adolescence and later life.




  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #25 - November 14, 2011, 07:18 PM

    Hi, I am sorry I have been absent for so long, but have been unable to log on at home because I don't want hubby to know. I will be able to pop in more often now because I'm now working from home. Thanks so much for your support.
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #26 - November 14, 2011, 07:21 PM

    Thank you for sharing this with me, I am anxious to know how your daughter is dealing with the situation. To reply your question, I am living in France and hubby is Moroccan. I am now 5 months pregnant. Your daughter is right not to want to live there, I really don't want to live in Morocco.
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #27 - November 14, 2011, 08:25 PM

    Hi Sakura and asbdsp, thank you for your support. Sakura, with all due respect, I have to work on this for the sake of the children. Right now my family in law loves me, and especially my parents in law. But I had lost my entire family and friends and my mom is on another continent. I have a long lost brother who is far away. My family in law is my only support system. I am the favourite daughter in law amongst four (and they are all muslim)  and I am like the daughter my mother in law never had. I know I will lose all that when I refuse to circumcize my baby. And my husband will be devastated. I have to care.


    Its unfortunate on how you are in a tough position, i dont what to say but i hope things will get easier for you.

    Welcome to the forum btw, hope you will stick around Smiley

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #28 - November 14, 2011, 08:43 PM

    Welcome to the thread maker.

    Correct me if im wrong but did you say you will allow your husband chop of part of your new born baby's genitals ?

    As for deism, it's pretty redundant, a non-personal god is pretty much useless. It's like have a parent, who you don't interact with or no level, a parent who doesn't lay down any rules or doesn't play any role in your upbringing, what would be the point of having such a parent ? similarly what would be the point of having a god who you don't have a personal relationship with?

    For me the question does god exists in completely nonsensical becos it has not been formulated as to what is meant by 'god'. The quesiton is unfathomable, it's like  asking 'are you a Caucasian black man?'. The term 'god' is a word with no scope of meaning and definition and it hasn't been satisfactorily discerned and apprehended what exactly we mean by when we use the term or phrase 'god'. No other term could be more ambiguous, asking if you believe in god is like me asking everyone the question do you believe 'gallamzush' exists ? before you can answer the question a consensus has to be reached on what exactly is meant by 'gallamzush'. Now if I ask something like 'do you think dragons exist', everyone knows that I'm referring to the mythical reptilian like creature with wings that blows fire, so that question can be answered.

    IMHO It's time for the human race to let go of the concept completely and worship the sanctity of life and build a heaven on Earth. It's difficult to nourish that most people live in a fantasy land where wishful thinking completely takes over. Faith like religious faith isn't tolerable in any other area of discourse and it's time to stop putting mythology on a pedestal.

    I'll leave you with some Sagan

    "it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring"
  • Re: Newbie
     Reply #29 - November 14, 2011, 08:56 PM

    Hi SerpentofEden. I don't understand your post, I am an atheist...
    As concerns the chop, no, certainly not!
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