science and soul

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- Azdaha ExMuslim
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science and soul
OP - August 26, 2011, 12:41 PM

Assalam O Alaikum Warahmatullah e Wabarakatu

These days i am reading about what is the concept of soul .... but couldn't digest the concepts .... reasons given by scientists are more strong ....... anyone who can tell me what is the real concept of soul among theists...esp muslims

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Re: science and soul
Reply #1 - August 26, 2011, 02:05 PM

Can you be more specific? Like what is it you couldnt grasp?

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Re: science and soul
Reply #2 - August 26, 2011, 03:37 PM

like they say soul is an essence of our animal being..quran says that allah took promise from our souls.... it means soul can speak ,listen, understand and move ....... but why none of us remember that promise ?...they say soul will remain there when our body is dead....but they are unable to explain the connection between brain and soul ... as science say that we r dead when our brain is dead

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Re: science and soul
Reply #3 - August 26, 2011, 05:05 PM

The notion of the soul is empirically unsound, and actually redundant.

Science keeps discovering brain structures which correlate to our mental processes. Affect these structures, and you affect the person. I can't think of any rational basis for supposing our ego survives physical destruction.

Our personality (or "soul") is like music, played by orchestra that is our brain-body environment. When musicians finally disband, what happens to their music? Does it keep playing by itself, without the musicians? I don't think so. The musicians eventually get regrouped into another orchestra, to play another piece.

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Re: science and soul
Reply #4 - August 26, 2011, 05:10 PM

I like that description

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
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Re: science and soul
Reply #5 - August 26, 2011, 05:14 PM

Quote from: Stuff on August 26, 2011, 05:05 PM
Our personality (or "soul") is like music, played by orchestra that is our brain-body environment. When musicians finally disband, what happens to their music? Does it keep playing by itself, without the musicians? I don't think so. The musicians eventually get regrouped into another orchestra, to play another piece.

+1

I've always tried to explain to the religious why our 'personality' or 'soul' is not independent of our physical selves. This a wondeful analogy that I think I will use from now on. If you don't mind.

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Re: science and soul
Reply #6 - August 26, 2011, 05:22 PM

Feel free, I don't mind

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Re: science and soul
Reply #7 - August 26, 2011, 05:25 PM

soul is the selfish bit of our self that wants to live forever forever and forever....

Little Fly, Thy summer's play
My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

I too dance and drink, and sing,
Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

Therefore I am a happy fly,
If I live or if I die.
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Re: science and soul
Reply #8 - August 26, 2011, 05:40 PM

Quote from: Stuff on August 26, 2011, 05:05 PM
The notion of the soul is empirically unsound, and actually redundant.

Science keeps discovering brain structures which correlate to our mental processes. Affect these structures, and you affect the person. I can't think of any rational basis for supposing our ego survives physical destruction.

Our personality (or "soul") is like music, played by orchestra that is our brain-body environment. When musicians finally disband, what happens to their music? Does it keep playing by itself, without the musicians? I don't think so. The musicians eventually get regrouped into another orchestra, to play another piece.

actually, physicists are studying the possibility of quantum intelligence.
They also have been doing studies on ESP with surprising results in favor
of a type of ESP, or knowing in advance things that cannot be known.

When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
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Re: science and soul
Reply #9 - August 26, 2011, 05:42 PM

uhhh no

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Re: science and soul
Reply #10 - August 26, 2011, 05:55 PM

http://science.discovery.com/videos/through-the-wormhole-sixth-sense/

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Re: science and soul
Reply #11 - August 26, 2011, 05:57 PM

Sounds like pseudoscience to me, but I'll look into it.

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Re: science and soul
Reply #12 - August 27, 2011, 10:08 PM

Quote from: Stuff on August 26, 2011, 05:05 PM
The notion of the soul is empirically unsound, and actually redundant.

Science keeps discovering brain structures which correlate to our mental processes. Affect these structures, and you affect the person. I can't think of any rational basis for supposing our ego survives physical destruction.

Our personality (or "soul") is like music, played by orchestra that is our brain-body environment. When musicians finally disband, what happens to their music? Does it keep playing by itself, without the musicians? I don't think so. The musicians eventually get regrouped into another orchestra, to play another piece.

then your saying there is some sort of duality between mind and soul (the instrument on which its played) physical but the music itself is not. The music is not in the instrument nor is it possible to have the music without first playing he instrument....or....if the soul is the harmony of all the instruments played then it is beyond science as science is deduction and taking orchestra apart would not show us the soul, wev lost the very thing we are searching for in de-constructing the mind

so basically biological naturalism - Jhon Searle

i agree although i wont use the word soul with its religious connotations

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Re: science and soul
Reply #13 - August 27, 2011, 10:50 PM

Quote from: Stuff on August 26, 2011, 05:57 PM
Sounds like pseudoscience to me, but I'll look into it.

Most if it is acutely put forward by new age sprtulist.

I think they did a video on it called "what the bleeb do we know" it was heavily criticized by the likes of randi , SHERMER and krauss

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Re: science and soul
Reply #14 - August 27, 2011, 11:44 PM

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on August 27, 2011, 10:08 PM
then your saying there is some sort of duality between mind and soul (the instrument on which its played) physical but the music itself is not.

No, I'm not saying that at all.
I don't believe in magic, so naturally I don't believe in the concept of a "soul" as described by religious.
I believe in nervous systems, cognitions, and behaviors. I see our ego in emergent relation to our brain. It's somewhat akin to a program that runs on a computer. We collect data, process it, and generate outputs. This analogy isn't as elegant as orchestra/music, but oh well.

Quote
The music is not in the instrument nor is it possible to have the music without first playing he instrument....or....if the soul is the harmony of all the instruments played then it is beyond science as science is deduction and taking orchestra apart would not show us the soul, wev lost the very thing we are searching for in de-constructing the mind

I think you've misinterpreted my post. The orchestra refers to the atoms which make us up. The music is the output...our ego, behavior, looks. I probably shouldn't have put the word soul in the brackets...

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Re: science and soul
Reply #15 - August 28, 2011, 01:43 AM

Quote from: Skeptic on August 27, 2011, 10:50 PM
Most if it is acutely put forward by new age sprtulist.

I think they did a video on it called "what the bleeb do we know" it was heavily criticized by the likes of randi , SHERMER and krauss

my link was from the SCIENCE CHANNEL, excerpt from "Through the Wormhole"
series. dont think any twinkies were involved (new agers)

When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
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Re: science and soul
Reply #16 - August 28, 2011, 02:20 AM

Rupert Sheldrake is indeed a scientist, but it appears that he has somewhat of a bad reputation in scientific circles, with some calling his hypotheses unfalsifiable and accusing him of engaging in pseudoscience.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake#Reception

I might check his studies out.
Even if there really are such a things as morphic fields and morphic resonance, I'm not sure how they would relate to my views on the 'soul'.

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Re: science and soul
Reply #17 - August 28, 2011, 02:24 AM

Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on August 28, 2011, 01:43 AM
my link was from the SCIENCE CHANNEL, excerpt from "Through the Wormhole"
series. dont think any twinkies were involved (new agers)

I was talking about it as genral .

Quantam theory of mind is concdiered by many as pesduoscience.

Though out of courisoty do you have a link to a peer review paper on it ?

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Re: science and soul
Reply #18 - August 28, 2011, 02:32 AM

Also just checked Sir roger penrose is advoactes it too which i find to be pretty strange. Any how most of his arguments has been proved to be wrong by Max Tegmark's paper.

Will look more into this later on

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Re: science and soul
Reply #19 - August 28, 2011, 11:08 PM

Quote from: Stuff on August 27, 2011, 11:44 PM
No, I'm not saying that at all.
I don't believe in magic, so naturally I don't believe in the concept of a "soul" as described by religious.
I believe in nervous systems, cognitions, and behaviors. I see our ego in emergent relation to our brain. It's somewhat akin to a program that runs on a computer. We collect data, process it, and generate outputs. This analogy isn't as elegant as orchestra/music, but oh well.

I think you've misinterpreted my post. The orchestra refers to the atoms which make us up. The music is the output...our ego, behavior, looks. I probably shouldn't have put the word soul in the brackets...

Oh ok , just to let you know the musical instrument and music argument was used by plato for the exact apposite of what your saying

programme and hardware analogy is better for what your arguing which if i have understood you - we are machines of function?

i refuse that bullshit computational understanding of humans

"A belief in hell and the knowledge that every ambition is doomed to frustration at the hands of a skeleton have never prevented the majority of human beings from behaving as though death were no more than an unfounded rumour."
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Re: science and soul
Reply #20 - August 30, 2011, 03:05 PM

Quote
programme and hardware analogy is better for what your arguing which if i have understood you - we are machines of function?

You could say we are machines, yes.
Far more elaborate and impressive than any machines we have built thus far, but when you get down to it we are also apparatuses made of dead matter.

Quote
i refuse that bullshit computational understanding of humans

Given the support that view has, I'd be more hesitant about dismissing it.
If you want to believe we are magical spirits inside a physical body, fine. I don't think something has to be magical to be extraordinary and special, and don't feel any less of people since I dismissed the notion of the "soul".

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Re: science and soul
Reply #21 - August 30, 2011, 05:27 PM

Stuff i think you misunderstand the word soul which in modern theology is simply the essence of your being (everything that is you)
the soul is a spirit but its no magical , its you and i think we should keep it
why would you depart from something that is so wonderful when you have no need to.
The problem is that new atheist approach these abstract concepts from a very shallow perspective
the soul is as real as poetry or art - and these things cannot be understood with the narrow mind that most new atheist seem to posses unless they approach art from a philistine perspective as something simply to entertain

i think its important to mention that the soul is a 'idea' not a 'thing' and that our thoughts are not 'things' yet we use our thoughts to come to an understanding of things. so a soul is far more important then science

"A belief in hell and the knowledge that every ambition is doomed to frustration at the hands of a skeleton have never prevented the majority of human beings from behaving as though death were no more than an unfounded rumour."
Aldous Huxley
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