Evolution and Muslims

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Evolution and Muslims
OP - September 07, 2011, 05:38 PM

I've FINALLY made some headway in convincing my parents of the truth of evolution. I've been talking about it with them for ages. Finally, the thing that sorta made progress was the Quran, ironically. I dismantled ID ideas bit by bit until Mom was left with "Well, what about the religious reasons for opposing evolution?". I tried hard not to laugh, but then I started quoting Ali ibn abi Talib when he talked about the ambiguity of the Quran, and Quranic verses that supported my position. My position was that the important question is not whether the Quran is creationist or not, but whether the Quran is compatible with evolution. I demonstrated that it was overly presumptuous to assume that compatibility was impossible, since Mom was just ta2weeling and ijtihaading.

I'm such a fucking hypocrite, though. If/when they accept evolution, I'll start saying it's not compatible with the Quran and that's why I'm not a Muslim

So yeah, what have your experiences been with Muslims and evolution? Any particularly useful strategies? (Also, have any fatwas been made that support evolution/compatibility? That would help a lot)

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #1 - September 07, 2011, 06:20 PM

My dad seems to think evolution could be the case.....except it must be allah who caused it to happen lol. Still, progress.

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #2 - September 07, 2011, 06:22 PM

Quote from: harakaat on September 07, 2011, 05:38 PM
I've FINALLY made some headway in convincing my parents of the truth of evolution. I've been talking about it with them for ages. Finally, the thing that sorta made progress was the Quran, ironically. I dismantled ID ideas bit by bit until Mom was left with "Well, what about the religious reasons for opposing evolution?". I tried hard not to laugh, but then I started quoting Ali ibn abi Talib when he talked about the ambiguity of the Quran, and Quranic verses that supported my position. My position was that the important question is not whether the Quran is creationist or not, but whether the Quran is compatible with evolution. I demonstrated that it was overly presumptuous to assume that compatibility was impossible, since Mom was just ta2weeling and ijtihaading.

I'm such a fucking hypocrite, though. If/when they accept evolution, I'll start saying it's not compatible with the Quran and that's why I'm not a Muslim

So yeah, what have your experiences been with Muslims and evolution? Any particularly useful strategies? (Also, have any fatwas been made that support evolution/compatibility? That would help a lot)

Harakaat you seem like a smart one :p just wanted to say that lol. That is all. bye.

"Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #3 - September 07, 2011, 06:40 PM

Quote from: harakaat on September 07, 2011, 05:38 PM
I demonstrated that it was overly presumptuous to assume that compatibility was impossible, since Mom was just ta2weeling and ijtihaading.

-I don't think Quran is compatible with Human evolution at all when it talks about Adam & Eve being the first humans created by Allah. As far as I know, it does not imply or state anywhere that Adam was descended from a previous ancestor. If it did I'd pay attention.
For me personally evolution,common descent & the study of the evidence that supports it helped a great deal to put the nail in the coffin to any belief in Islam.

Quote from: harakaat on September 07, 2011, 05:38 PM
So yeah, what have your experiences been with Muslims and evolution? Any particularly useful strategies?

If you want to convince muslims about evolution I suggest you get them to look into vestigial structures in the anatomy of most multicellular creatures, including humans. That really got me thinking when I first looked into it but of course there are many lines of evidence that support/confirm evolution & common descent.

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #4 - September 08, 2011, 10:46 AM

the biggest hurdle is in making people understand evolution. Everyone thinks they get it, but many of these people ask why there are still monkies. I think it is taught quite badly at school.

i have debated muslims on this topic, and im confronted with "still just a theory" stuff and "get educated" (read some Harun Yahya?).
Even after explaning multiple times to the same person exactly where they are going wrong, nothing sinks in. Not once have I ever had any progress. They refuse to understand that:

1. like many words, 'theory' has more than one definition.
2. a random element (mutation) does not make the whole process random.
3. a selective element does not make the whole process require a mind and intention.
4. complexity is not a challenge to evolution, as it's emergence is the very thing that evolution does explain.
5. there is no goal or hierachy
6. Harun Yahya is both a liar and a moron

there are of course, plenty more.
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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #5 - September 08, 2011, 01:56 PM

Quote from: stardust on September 07, 2011, 06:20 PM
My dad seems to think evolution could be the case.....except it must be allah who caused it to happen lol. Still, progress.

Congrats. My parents have unequivocally stated (a few months ago, at dinner table) that evolution is a myth that has been officially debunked by scientists from all around the world ages ago. ("huh! as if human could descend from monkeys!").

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #6 - September 08, 2011, 03:59 PM

there are many levels of acceptance of evolution.

for most muslims, they have absolutely no problem at all accepting the idea that animals and plants evolved. What they object to is that humans evolved from apes.
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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #7 - September 08, 2011, 04:03 PM

i always tought the quran supported evolution, ive heard many muslims say that plus the big bang as well

"The Rabb (Who according to His law of creation) took you through various evolutionary stages one after the other; and fashioned you by removing unnecessary elements, thereby creating excellent balance, proportion and symmetry in you.Thereafter, according to His Law of Mashiyyat, He gave you a suitable form.. "|Surah Al Infitar verse 7-8

Surah Nuh Verse 14
| How can you attain this state of life? For this you should ponder over the Divine Law of Creation, according to which you have passed through various evolutionary stages to attain human form." In this evolutionary process each step took you forward and made you better and superior. All this happened without your effort, knowledge or discretion, but the moment you started exercising your discretion, you went astray and started slipping downwards |

I actually that last part is quite an amazing sentence, the idea of the human brain evolved to the state of producing a mind which polarised the world giving the illusion of dualistic, me and the other.

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #8 - September 08, 2011, 04:04 PM

i wanna learn abotu evolution

would u recommend a good doc on it please/
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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #9 - September 08, 2011, 04:38 PM

Quote from: serpentofeden on September 08, 2011, 04:04 PM
i wanna learn abotu evolution

would u recommend a good doc on it please/

This was my intro...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Zh69TB0lU

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #10 - September 08, 2011, 06:54 PM

Evolution can be compatibe with any religion.

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My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

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Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #11 - September 09, 2011, 02:10 AM

Quote from: saleri on September 08, 2011, 04:03 PM
i always tought the quran supported evolution, ive heard many muslims say that plus the big bang as well

"The Rabb (Who according to His law of creation) took you through various evolutionary stages one after the other; and fashioned you by removing unnecessary elements, thereby creating excellent balance, proportion and symmetry in you.Thereafter, according to His Law of Mashiyyat, He gave you a suitable form.. "|Surah Al Infitar verse 7-8

Surah Nuh Verse 14
| How can you attain this state of life? For this you should ponder over the Divine Law of Creation, according to which you have passed through various evolutionary stages to attain human form." In this evolutionary process each step took you forward and made you better and superior. All this happened without your effort, knowledge or discretion, but the moment you started exercising your discretion, you went astray and started slipping downwards |

I actually that last part is quite an amazing sentence, the idea of the human brain evolved to the state of producing a mind which polarised the world giving the illusion of dualistic, me and the other.

Surah al infitar
82:7 who created you proportioned you and balanced you
82:8 in whatever form he willed has he assembled you

Surah nuh
71:14 while he has created you in stages
goes on to talk about 7 heavens and the contentious issue of the moon having it's own light

When looked at in light of other parts of the quran you will see that these stages in fact refer to the stages of foetal development (drop-clump-bones-flesh) and in no way suggests the quran contains knowledge of evolution. Why do muslims selectively claim 'out of context'- they pull things out to suit their own agendas!
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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #12 - September 09, 2011, 07:10 PM

Quote from: Naerys on September 08, 2011, 01:56 PM
Congrats. My parents have unequivocally stated (a few months ago, at dinner table) that evolution is a myth that has been officially debunked by scientists from all around the world ages ago. ("huh! as if human could descend from monkeys!").

LOL
when I told my cousin that one of my modules for next year is 'Evolutionary Genetics' she was like 'Oh but they discovered that evolution is wrong. Why do they still teach you that?'
*double-handed face palm*

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #13 - September 09, 2011, 07:14 PM

Well it is only a theory.

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #14 - September 09, 2011, 07:24 PM

Quote from: stardust on September 07, 2011, 06:22 PM
Harakaat you seem like a smart one

Smart isn't the word - scarily clever and admirably obsessed with lécher la moule.

Shame he posted a crap cover of Les Passantes rather than the original. Still, no-one's perfect.
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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #15 - September 09, 2011, 07:26 PM

Quote from: GodIsNotGreat on September 09, 2011, 07:14 PM

Well it is only a theory.

Yeah.
Pshh, how can we trust those scientists if they don't even know how life came to be?

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #16 - September 09, 2011, 07:36 PM

Quote from: harakaat on September 07, 2011, 05:38 PM
So yeah, what have your experiences been with Muslims and evolution?

From my experience at uni so far, most muslim students think evolution is bullshit. They're just studying it to pass their exams and get their degrees. But you'd never guess that from reading their essays or answers to questions about evolution. I could sorta understand their position if this was high school or college, because the education system leaves it out til the end and it's usually very poorly explained. But at uni and especially cause this is a bio course, evolution is properly explained to you and all the evidence for it is literally layed out infront of you. You don't even need to look for it.
Then there's a few who are just confused and don't know whether they should acknowledge evolution because it contradicts the Qur'an. There are others who think that it's 100% compatible with the Qur'an.

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #17 - September 09, 2011, 07:49 PM

Quote from: stardust on September 07, 2011, 06:20 PM
My dad seems to think evolution could be the case.....except it must be allah who caused it to happen lol. Still, progress.

My mum has a similar view.

@ thread

When I was first questioning Islam I came across articles that were written by muslims who claim 1 of the names of Allah can be translated as "the evolver" , I guess its nice to see muslims trying to find some sort of ermm compatibility between the two instead of just saying "no its wrong because its against Islam"
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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #18 - September 09, 2011, 07:55 PM

An earlier post I wrote:

Quote from: billy on February 26, 2010, 02:11 PM

Acceptance of evolution amongst Christians and Muslims is related to levels of literalism. The evangelical whacko Christians are literalists who have a very Quranic attitude to the Bible. Those Christians who treat the Bible less strictly, who accept it figuratively, who can take a metaphorical conception of its precepts, are able to create space for an acceptance of evolution because of this.

Whilst amongst Muslims, especially educated Muslims living in the West, this is also true, that they can accept evolution to a greater or lesser degree because they are able to conceive of Islam and the Quran in such a way to allow so (or convince themselves that it can be interpreted thus), it doesn't translate into mainstream or even higher echelon proponents, because Islam is (relatively) more mired in literalism, not only at the fringe, but at the centre, and in the mainstream.

As such, these tensions and differences are something of a microcosm of the tensions within Islam and between Muslims, of those who believe that Islam should be viewed figuratively and metaphorically, and the majority opinion, that Islam is literal, and the Quran the unadorned facts of dvine revelation and unchallengable truth.

Also, evolution seems to cause significant ire amongst Muslims because of the 'challenge' to the totalising truth claims that it makes. This is discernible with literalist Christianity creationists too.

But the challenge to Islam of evolution creates an anxiety and neurosis not discernable in other major religions like Judaism, Buddhism or Hinduism, because of the very specific claims that Islam makes for itself, which some might say are arrogant in their claims. As a prosletysing 'Total Explanation' literalist belief system that claims it contains all knowledge, and everything; every cause, motion, action, science and universe has the stamp and permission and certificate of Islam on it, it causes a short circuit in the dysfunctional computer of believing Muslims.

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #19 - September 09, 2011, 08:40 PM

Quote from: billy on September 09, 2011, 07:55 PM

An earlier post I wrote:

Also, evolution seems to cause significant ire amongst Muslims because of the 'challenge' to the totalising truth claims that it makes. This is discernible with literalist Christianity creationists too.

But the challenge to Islam of evolution creates an anxiety and neurosis not discernable in other major religions like Judaism, Buddhism or Hinduism, because of the very specific claims that Islam makes for itself, which some might say are arrogant in their claims. As a prosletysing 'Total Explanation' literalist belief system that claims it contains all knowledge, and everything; every cause, motion, action, science and universe has the stamp and permission and certificate of Islam on it, it causes a short circuit in the dysfunctional computer of believing Muslims.

Bingo! I would say a deadly short circuit!

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #20 - September 09, 2011, 11:13 PM

Quote from: stardust on September 07, 2011, 06:22 PM
Harakaat you seem like a smart one :p just wanted to say that lol. That is all. bye.

Aww, thanks dustie!

Quote from: David on September 09, 2011, 07:24 PM
Smart isn't the word - scarily clever and admirably obsessed with lécher la moule.

Shame he posted a crap cover of Les Passantes rather than the original. Still, no-one's perfect.

Haha, thanks David By the way, you speak French?

Oh, and, two reasons I posted that cover:

- it had an English translation
- shilaki 20 years from now would probably look exactly like the guy in the video

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #21 - September 09, 2011, 11:14 PM

Also, there's this scientist I met whose work deals with attitudes towards evolution in the Muslim world. This is his blog:

http://sciencereligionnews.blogspot.com/

Apparently, one interviewee told him that he believed in evolution at the hospital where he worked, but not at home

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #22 - September 09, 2011, 11:17 PM

Quote from: Saffire on September 09, 2011, 02:10 AM
Surah al infitar
82:7 who created you proportioned you and balanced you
82:8 in whatever form he willed has he assembled you

Surah nuh
71:14 while he has created you in stages
goes on to talk about 7 heavens and the contentious issue of the moon having it's own light

When looked at in light of other parts of the quran you will see that these stages in fact refer to the stages of foetal development (drop-clump-bones-flesh) and in no way suggests the quran contains knowledge of evolution. Why do muslims selectively claim 'out of context'- they pull things out to suit their own agendas!

well there goes the last of what i liked about the quran

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #23 - September 10, 2011, 05:35 AM

Quote from: harakaat on September 09, 2011, 11:13 PM
Haha, thanks David By the way, you speak French?

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #24 - September 10, 2011, 09:18 AM

Islam's biggest problem here is that it went way too far in proclaiming Adam and Eve as real actual people. Didnt leave enough wiggle room. Making Adam an honest to goodness prophet and the quran actual "god's verbatim words", doesnt help matters.

The funny thing though about the ID types ("ok ok, evolution is a fact and all, but god did it"), is that it's so ridiculous. From the POV of it being a mindless process of nature with results that are based simply on the effect of said process, it is so elegant, makes so much sense, and fits so nicely.
On the other hand though.....If "it's just the process by which god did the stuff he was doing", it's a convoluted insane Rube Goldberg machine for producing a substandard product.
You had infinite super magic, and still decided to put my balls dangerously exposed on the outside of my body, so that I'd have to constantly adjust them when I sit in an airplane? Thanks a lot jerk! Oh, and good job making us have to poop. That was a real bang up idea. Almost as good as coming up with polio. And wisdom teeth? Smooth move ex-lax, It took you 4 billion years to throw this together?

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #25 - September 10, 2011, 09:27 AM

LLOL

"Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #26 - September 11, 2011, 11:39 AM

Muslms just refuse to believe that we come from apes for 2 reasons, 1. it denies adam and eve, 2. there egos cnt handle such a humble fact about our origins.

I have openly said to my family i believe in evolution the arguments i got back where so retarded i just gave up on em. Next time they start anything my argument will be, "if you dont believe in evolution then never use medicine when you get sick, since you deny it then you deny that bacteria evolve and thats how new stronger illnesses come about, evolution explains it all you either face the facts about it and except it all or be a hypocrite and deny only the bits you dont like".

I cant wait to see what they got to say about that. In case anyone wants to know at the arguments against evolution they spit out here is a few, "how come our faces are so different", "if we come from monkeys why dnt we ever give birth to kids that look like monkeys" even though i explain to them why this is so they still dont change there views, brainwashing is a serious problem although there are a few who have the brains and will to not be bullshited forever

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #27 - September 13, 2011, 07:19 PM

Quote from: Jema on September 09, 2011, 07:10 PM
LOL
when I told my cousin that one of my modules for next year is 'Evolutionary Genetics' she was like 'Oh but they discovered that evolution is wrong. Why do they still teach you that?'
*double-handed face palm*

My brother just asked me if there is a possibilty that Evolution is acceptable in Islam and i told him its not possible because if he thinks that way, then he has committed shirk(which made him laugh). Im trying to find a better link that will make him understand what evolution is all about,not good at explaining stuff to him verbally.

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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #28 - September 13, 2011, 07:25 PM

Quote from: shak90 on September 11, 2011, 11:39 AM
"if we come from monkeys why dnt we ever give birth to kids that look like monkeys"

]
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Re: Evolution and Muslims
Reply #29 - September 13, 2011, 08:55 PM

Evolution rarely designs things badly.

If it did Those designs would not last long!

And life has been going on for billions of years!

Thats why birds are perfect at flying. Fishes perfect at swimming...

To say evolution creates bad design is not a good argument...

Little Fly, Thy summer's play
My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

I too dance and drink, and sing,
Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

Therefore I am a happy fly,
If I live or if I die.
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