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Theme Changer

 Topic: Need help with an argument.

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  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #30 - September 10, 2011, 02:45 PM
    Quote from: Fatihah on September 10, 2011, 02:42 PM
    Response: No where in the entire hadith does it say to kill someone who is innocent. So this proves nothing.


    Of course it does, the context was that these Muslims left Islam and became atheists, and they were killed for doing this. There are 100s of other examples during the wars of apostasy or Islamic civil war. Mohammed said whoever leaves Islam for another religion must be killed.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #31 - September 10, 2011, 02:49 PM
    Quote from: Fatihah on September 10, 2011, 02:44 PM
    Response: None of which demonstrates the killing of innocents in the Qur'an or Sunnah, making your point, pointless.

    What don't you understand dear Fatihah...

     people are asking you How you understand that "Quran/Sunnah" defines " innocents"

    Who are the innocents according to Quran/Sunnah?  

    Did you read Quarn to figure out  who was/is innocent and who was/is not innocent??

    You stuck in that stubborn "RESPONSE" Mode.,  which is an unnecessary word in your posts..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #32 - September 10, 2011, 02:57 PM
    If this is the context, then it should be easy for you to quote any text which states to kill them "because" they changed their religion. But you can not. Therefore, your argument fails. It says kill those who change their religion, not to kill people "because" they changed their religion. It also does not state which religion is being referred to. Thus once again, your interpretation is invalid. The qur'an, on the other hand clearly states that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). Therefore, the context is clearly relating to self-defense of those who left islam during a time of war and aided the enemies against muslims. So they were killed for changing their allegiance and engaging in war against muslims.
    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #33 - September 10, 2011, 03:01 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on September 10, 2011, 02:49 PM
    What don't you understand dear Fatihah...

     people are asking you How you understand that "Quran/Sunnah" defines " innocents"

    Who are the innocents according to Quran/Sunnah?  

    Did you read Quarn to figure out  who was/is innocent and who was/is not innocent??

    You stuck in that stubborn "RESPONSE" Mode.,  which is an unnecessary word in your posts..




    Response: Once agin, the better question is why do you still think that weak strawman arguments like the one above will work. The question itself is absurd. There's no logical reason to to ask for the definition of "innocent". The word is defined in every dictionary and understood by even a child. So there is no reason to believe the definition would change, just because the word is used in the Qur'an or Sunnah.
    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #34 - September 10, 2011, 03:04 PM
    Quote from: Fatihah on September 10, 2011, 02:57 PM
    If this is the context, then it should be easy for you to quote any text which states to kill them "because" they changed their religion. But you can not. Therefore, your argument fails.

      O.K.  

    Quote
    It says,  "kill those who change their religion, not to kill people "because" they changed their religion."

     Does it really say that?? I didn't know.. Good..

    Quote
    It also does not state which religion is being referred to.

    what does that mean write some tafsir for your Quran dear Fatihah l

    Quote
    Thus once again, your interpretation is invalid. The qur'an, on the other hand clearly states that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256).

    off course ., but what religion are you talking in that 2:256??

    Quote
    Therefore, the context is clearly relating to self-defense of those who left islam during a time of war and aided the enemies against muslims. So they were killed for changing their allegiance and engaging in war against muslims.

    who left Islam and aided enemies against Muslims??  And what we do with Islam outside of Mecca & Madina?  what kind of Islam was/is that?
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #35 - September 10, 2011, 03:05 PM
    The quoted verse is abrogated by the Quran. And the no compulsion in religion applies to a verse talking to the Israelites. It seems you have reading comprehension problems or are ignorant of Islam. It clearly says, that Mohammed said kill those who leave Islam.

    "Let there be no compulsion in religion" Surah 2:256
    "Therefore expound openly what thou art commanded, and turn away from those who join false gods with Allah" Surah 15:94

    These verses seem to say clearly enough that the Qur'an teaches a peaceful response to those who oppose Islam. But there are other verses in the Qur'an which say quite the opposite. For example "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful"

    Surah 9:5

    Which verse should Muslims follow? According to the doctrine of abrogation, the later texts supersede the earlier whenever there are inconsistencies, or they are said to "abrogate" the earlier texts. Therefore, a Muslim simply needs to know which verse came earlier, and which came later.

    Surah 2:190;2:256 & 15:94 have all been abrogated according to Muslim scholars.(تراجع كتب الناسخ والمنسوخ لـ ابن حزم، الكرمي، ابن الجوزي، المقري، قتاده،...) (for detailed information check books under titles like The Abrogative and the Abrogated by authors like Ibn Hazem, Al-Karmi, Ibn Al-Jawzi, Al-Muqri, or Al-Nisabouri)

    Suyuti in his book استنباط التنزيل (Istenbat al tanzeel) says: "Every thing in the Qur'an about forgiveness is abrogated by verse 9:5." Al-Shawkani in his book السيل الجرار (Alsaylu Jarar 4:518-519) says: "Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jiziah (special tax paid only by Christians or Jews) or being killed. [The verses] about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case."

    To anyone acquainted with Islamic law, it is clear that according to Islam, the punishment for a Muslim who turns to kufr (infidelity, blasphemy) is execution, and the following article thoroughly documents this from Islam's source documents.

    "THE PUNISHMENT OF THE APOSTATE
    ACCORDING TO ISLAMIC LAW"

    ABUL ALA MAWDUDI

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/Mawdudi/
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #36 - September 10, 2011, 03:34 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: King Tut on September 10, 2011, 03:05 PM
    The quoted verse is abrogated by the Quran. And the no compulsion in religion applies to a verse talking to the Israelites. It seems you have reading comprehension problems or are ignorant of Islam. It clearly says, that Mohammed said kill those who leave Islam.

    "Let there be no compulsion in religion" Surah 2:256
    "Therefore expound openly what thou art commanded, and turn away from those who join false gods with Allah" Surah 15:94


     ...................................................
    "THE PUNISHMENT OF THE APOSTATE
    ACCORDING TO ISLAMIC LAW"

    ABUL ALA MAWDUDI

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/Mawdudi/

    [/quote]

    well let us some Quran here fro the sake our good friend   Fatihah ., It appears he hasn't read anything and on top of it he is pretty stubborn. Off course many of us write responses not for the sake of Fatihah but for other readers of CEMB..

    Let me take the verse from http://quran.com/  as that www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/  seem to have removed theor Quran or many people reading the site and it crashed,

    Surat Al-Baqarah 2:27


    Surat Al-Baqarah 2:39


    Surat 'Āli `Imrān 3:90


    Surat 'Āli `Imrān 3:91


    Surat 'Āli `Imrān 4:89


    Quote
    Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:
    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."


    Quote
    Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 445:
    Narrated Abu Dhar:

    The Prophet said, "Gabriel said to me, 'Whoever amongst your followers die without having worshipped others besides Allah, will enter Paradise (or will not enter the (Hell) Fire)." The Prophet asked. "Even if he has committed illegal sexual intercourse or theft?" He replied, "Even then."

    Quote
    (Sahih Bukhari 4.260)
    Narrated Ikrima:

    Ali burnt some people [hypocrites] and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "



    well let us read further down this thread..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #37 - September 10, 2011, 03:34 PM
    deleted.
    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #38 - September 10, 2011, 03:35 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on September 10, 2011, 03:05 PM
    The quoted verse is abrogated by the Quran. And the no compulsion in religion applies to a verse talking to the Israelites. It seems you have reading comprehension problems or are ignorant of Islam. It clearly says, that Mohammed said kill those who leave Islam.

    "Let there be no compulsion in religion" Surah 2:256
    "Therefore expound openly what thou art commanded, and turn away from those who join false gods with Allah" Surah 15:94

    These verses seem to say clearly enough that the Qur'an teaches a peaceful response to those who oppose Islam. But there are other verses in the Qur'an which say quite the opposite. For example "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful"

    Surah 9:5

    Which verse should Muslims follow? According to the doctrine of abrogation, the later texts supersede the earlier whenever there are inconsistencies, or they are said to "abrogate" the earlier texts. Therefore, a Muslim simply needs to know which verse came earlier, and which came later.

    Surah 2:190;2:256 & 15:94 have all been abrogated according to Muslim scholars.(تراجع كتب الناسخ والمنسوخ لـ ابن حزم، الكرمي، ابن الجوزي، المقري، قتاده،...) (for detailed information check books under titles like The Abrogative and the Abrogated by authors like Ibn Hazem, Al-Karmi, Ibn Al-Jawzi, Al-Muqri, or Al-Nisabouri)

    Suyuti in his book استنباط التنزيل (Istenbat al tanzeel) says: "Every thing in the Qur'an about forgiveness is abrogated by verse 9:5." Al-Shawkani in his book السيل الجرار (Alsaylu Jarar 4:518-519) says: "Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jiziah (special tax paid only by Christians or Jews) or being killed. [The verses] about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case."

    To anyone acquainted with Islamic law, it is clear that according to Islam, the punishment for a Muslim who turns to kufr (infidelity, blasphemy) is execution, and the following article thoroughly documents this from Islam's source documents.

    "THE PUNISHMENT OF THE APOSTATE
    ACCORDING TO ISLAMIC LAW"

    ABUL ALA MAWDUDI

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/Mawdudi/


    Response: You Begin by stating that verse 2:256 was abrogated in the Qur'an. If this is the case, you should surely be able to present from the Qur'an or Sunnah that such is the case. Yet you provide .......nothing, supporting the fact that your argument is false.

    You then quote verse 9:5 to again attempt injustice in the Qur'an. But surely, in order to get to verse 5, you would have to run by verse 4, correct? So what does it say?

    '"Except those of the disbelievers with whom you have entered a peace treaty and who have not subsequently failed you in anything nor aided anyone against you".

    This once again confirms from the context itself that verse 9:5 relates to self-defense because the verse directly before it forbids fighting those who have not aided anyone against the muslims and have formed a peace treaty.

    As for the other abrogated verses, we see the same claim, with nothing form the Qur'an or Sunnah stating that the verses were abrogated. Thus your whole argument fails and only helps to suport that islam is a religion of peace and only condones fighting in self-defense.
     


    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #39 - September 10, 2011, 03:39 PM
    Quote from: Fatihah on September 10, 2011, 03:35 PM
    Thus your whole argument fails and only helps to suport that islam is a religion of peace and only condones fighting in self-defense.


    Yap.. This is all "SELF DEFENSE & PEACE"

    Quote
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.

    633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
    634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
    635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
    636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
    637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
    638: Conquest of Jazirah.
    639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
    640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
    641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
    642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
    643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
    644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
    645: Campaigns in Fats.
    646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
    647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
    648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
    651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
    652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
    656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
    657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
    658: Battle of Nahrawan.
    659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
    660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
    661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.
    662: Khawarij revolts.
    666: Raid of Sicily.
    670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba b Nafe founds the town of Qairowan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul.
    672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan.
    674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state.
    677: Occupation of Sarnarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople.
    680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.
    682: In North Africa Uqba b Nafe marches to the Atlantic, is ambushed and killed at Biskra. The Muslims evacuate Qairowan and withdraw to Burqa.
    683: Death of Yazid. Accession of Mu'awiyah II.
    684: Abdullah b Zubair declares himself aS the Caliph at'Makkah. Marwan I becomes the Caliph' at Damascus. Battle of Marj Rahat.
    685: Death of Marwan I. Abdul Malik becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Ain ul Wada.
    686: Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa.
    687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abdullah b Zubair. Mukhtar killed.
    691: Battle of Deir ul Jaliq. Kufa falls to Abdul Malik.
    692: The fall of Makkah. Death of Abdullah b Zubair. Abdul Malik becomes the sole Caliph.
    695: Khawarij revolts in Jazira and Ahwaz. Battle of the Karun. Campaigns against Kahina in North Africa. The' Muslims once again withdraw to Barqa. The Muslims advance in Transoxiana and occupy Kish.
    700: Campaigns against the Berbers in North Africa.
    702: Ashath's rebellion in Iraq, battle of Deir ul Jamira.
    705: Death of Abdul Malik. Accession of Walid I as Caliph.
    711: Conquest of Spain, Sind and Transoxiana.
    712: The Muslims advance in Spain, Sind and Transoxiana.
    713: Conquest of Multan.
    715: Death of Walid I. Accession of Sulaiman.
    716: Invasion of Constantinople.
    717: Death of Sulaiman. Accession of Umar b Abdul Aziz.
    720: Death of Umar b Abdul Aziz. Accession of Yazid II.
    724: Death of Yazid II. Accession of Hisham.

    That is just 100 years of Islam from the day Mr. PBUH lost his first wife Khadija...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #40 - September 10, 2011, 03:40 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on September 10, 2011, 03:34 PM
    ...................................................
    "THE PUNISHMENT OF THE APOSTATE
    ACCORDING TO ISLAMIC LAW"

    ABUL ALA MAWDUDI

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/Mawdudi/


    well let us some Quran here fro the sake our good friend   Fatihah ., It appears he hasn't read anything and on top of it he is pretty stubborn. Off course many of us write responses not for the sake of Fatihah but for other readers of CEMB..

    Let me take the verse from http://quran.com/  as that www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/  seem to have removed theor Quran or many people reading the site and it crashed,

    Surat Al-Baqarah 2:27
    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Surat Al-Baqarah 2:39
    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Surat 'Āli `Imrān 3:90
    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Surat 'Āli `Imrān 3:91
    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Surat 'Āli `Imrān 4:89
    (Clicky for piccy!)


    well let us read further down this thread..


    Response: To the contrary, the simple fact that you once again failed to provide a verse in the Qur'an or Sunnah stating that the verses mentioned were abrogated clearly demonstrates that your logic is absurd and continues to prove nothing. Yet, you somehow think that your persistence to do so somehow reflects that I don't read and I'm stubborn when you've yet to provide evidence for any of your claims. You are truly amusing.
    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #41 - September 10, 2011, 03:42 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on September 10, 2011, 03:39 PM
    Yap.. This is all "SELF DEFENSE & PEACE"
    That is just 100 years of Islam from the day Mr. PBUH lost his first wife Khadija...


    Response: Islam is from the Qur'an or Sunnah. None of what you posted is from either source, thus failing to prove that it depicts 100 years of islam. Another failed attempt.
    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #42 - September 10, 2011, 03:42 PM
    Quote from: Fatihah on September 10, 2011, 03:40 PM
    You are truly amusing.

    happy to amuse you dear Fatihah .. well enjoy.. why worry?
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #43 - September 10, 2011, 03:46 PM
    Quote from: Fatihah on September 10, 2011, 03:42 PM
    Response: Islam is from the Qur'an or Sunnah. None of what you posted is from either source, thus failing to prove that it depicts 100 years of islam. Another failed attempt.

    Well,   ALL THOSE ROGUE MUSLIMS  YOU SEE in that first 100 years of Islam, .including last 13 years of Prophet Islam used same Quran and same sunnah what you have NOT read.

    So difference is,  they read it you didn't read  dear Fatihah
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #44 - September 10, 2011, 03:54 PM
    Quote from: Fatihah on September 10, 2011, 02:57 PM
    If this is the context, then it should be easy for you to quote any text which states to kill them "because" they changed their religion. But you can not. Therefore, your argument fails. It says kill those who change their religion, not to kill people "because" they changed their religion. It also does not state which religion is being referred to. Thus once again, your interpretation is invalid. The qur'an, on the other hand clearly states that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). Therefore, the context is clearly relating to self-defense of those who left islam during a time of war and aided the enemies against muslims. So they were killed for changing their allegiance and engaging in war against muslims.


    Response: Again, you did not insert 'Response' at the beginning of your post. Your argument is invalid.
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #45 - September 10, 2011, 03:55 PM
    Quote from: Fatihah on September 10, 2011, 03:34 PM
    deleted.


    Response: 'Deleted' is not a proper argument. Also again you forgot to put 'Response' at the beginning of your post. Your argument is invalid.
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #46 - September 10, 2011, 04:07 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on September 10, 2011, 03:46 PM
    Well,   ALL THOSE ROGUE MUSLIMS  YOU SEE in that first 100 years of Islam, .including last 13 years of Prophet Islam used same Quran and same sunnah what you have NOT read.

    So difference is,  they read it you didn't read  dear Fatihah


    Response: To the contrary, your inability to demonstate or proof any thing that I stated thus far from the Qur'an is false supports the fact that I read it, and you don't. Another failed rebuttal.
    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #47 - September 10, 2011, 04:11 PM
    Quote from: Fatihah on September 10, 2011, 04:07 PM
    Response: To the contrary, your inability to demonstate or proof any thing that I stated thus far from the Qur'an is false supports the fact that I read it, and you don't. Another failed rebuttal.

    You stated nothing but rubbish and a word "response" in all of your 103 posts in 2 days dear Fatihah.. but please continue to read.,  there are many other things i need to do..

    your reading skills and your posts are important to people like you..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #48 - September 10, 2011, 04:27 PM
    Another statement, with no proof. At least you are consistent.
    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #49 - September 10, 2011, 04:46 PM
    Quote from: Fatihah on September 10, 2011, 04:27 PM
    Another statement, with no proof. At least you are consistent.


    Response: This statement also has no proof. Also please insert 'Response' at the beginning for every single post you make, otherwise your argument is invalid.
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #50 - September 10, 2011, 04:55 PM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kNK-_Fzgrk

    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #51 - September 10, 2011, 07:05 PM
     Cheesy
    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #52 - September 10, 2011, 08:59 PM
    Quote from: Fatihah on September 10, 2011, 02:40 PM
    Response: The other two can very much be argued and are justified. The hadith itself clearly states that blood "can be" shed, not that blood "should be" shed. That alone demonstrates, that death is not obligatory simply because they revert from islam or have sex outside of marriage. The words acknowledge that there are conditions, supported by the Qur'an and several other hadiths.

    Concerning Apostasy, it is when one who leaves islam becomes violent against muslims or simply embraced islam, only as a strategy of war to destroy muslims from within and utilize their knowledge of muslims against them in war once they leave islam. In this case, it is self-defense, therefore, the killing of the apostate is justified.

    Concerning adultery, the death penalty was prescribed in the torah, not in islam. So it was accustomed by Muhammad (saw) to follow the Torah untill Allah(swt) revealed differently. As any reasonable person will recognize, having sex out of lust is severely, emotionally, devastating, act. Why else does a person feel so devastated after being molested or cheated on? It is because the sexual experience was not an act of love, but one out of lust. As a result, a severe punishment is necessary to prevent sexual activity based on lust, and not out of love. Thus the hadith is justified.


    that is why i hate the english translation cuz 1 word could be altered to can and what not.. I have yet to find "can be" in the quran when reading arabic. unless i don't know my language.

    do you happen to know arabic ?

    cuz if so
    Quote
    6524 حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو النُّعْمَانِ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْفَضْلِ حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ عَنْ أَيُّوبَ عَنْ عِكْرِمَةَ قَالَ أُتِيَ عَلِيٌّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ بِزَنَادِقَةٍ فَأَحْرَقَهُمْ فَبَلَغَ ذَلِكَ ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ فَقَالَ لَوْ كُنْتُ أَنَا لَمْ أُحْرِقْهُمْ لِنَهْيِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لَا تُعَذِّبُوا بِعَذَابِ اللَّهِ وَلَقَتَلْتُهُمْ لِقَوْلِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ مَنْ بَدَّلَ دِينَهُ فَاقْتُلُوهُ


    http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&TOCID=3817&BookID=24&PID=6633
    [13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
    [13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
    [13:37] <Fimbles> see
    [13:37] <Fimbles> you think i'd enjoy anything above 7 inches up my arse?
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #53 - September 10, 2011, 10:19 PM
    I'm just waiting for Fatihah to say "cool story bro"
    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #54 - September 11, 2011, 12:31 AM
    Quote from: Kod on September 10, 2011, 08:59 PM
    that is why i hate the english translation cuz 1 word could be altered to can and what not.. I have yet to find "can be" in the quran when reading arabic. unless i don't know my language.

    do you happen to know arabic ?

    cuz if so
    http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&TOCID=3817&BookID=24&PID=6633


    Response: The translation was not altered and demonstrates that the killing of innocents is not condoned in the hadith.
    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #55 - September 11, 2011, 06:29 AM
    What about apostates? We're innocent. What on this beautiful Earth would we be guilty for?

    Oh yeah, thoughtcrime.  Roll Eyes
    Rather be forgotten than remembered for giving in.
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #56 - September 11, 2011, 06:50 AM
    Response: Yeh, that hadith is a very clear order to kill people who change their religion. Nothing to do with "can". It's a fuckin' order. Debunked.
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #57 - September 11, 2011, 07:12 AM
    Quote from: Peppermint Tits on September 11, 2011, 06:29 AM
    What about apostates? We're innocent. What on this beautiful Earth would we be guilty for?

    Oh yeah, thoughtcrime.  Roll Eyes




    Someone is apostating right now!
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #58 - September 11, 2011, 07:44 AM
    Quote from: MoeAlharbi on September 10, 2011, 10:19 PM
    I'm just waiting for Fatihah to say "cool story bro"

     Cheesy  In fact all of us have to ask him:

    RESPONSE: " u mad bro?"


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #59 - September 11, 2011, 11:59 AM
    Quote from: Peppermint Tits on September 11, 2011, 06:29 AM
    What about apostates? We're innocent. What on this beautiful Earth would we be guilty for?

    Oh yeah, thoughtcrime.  Roll Eyes


    Resonse: An apostate is not innocent if they try to harm muslims or suddenly convert from islam and join the enemies of muslims while in battle. In these incidents, they are not innocent, but threatening and dangerous, and a muslim has a right to defend themself in self-defense.
    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
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