Need help with an argument.

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #60 - September 11, 2011, 12:04 PM

Quote from: Abood on September 11, 2011, 06:50 AM
Response: Yeh, that hadith is a very clear order to kill people who change their religion. Nothing to do with "can". It's a fuckin' order. Debunked.

Response: And the hadith clearlt says to kill those who change their religion, not "because" they change their religion. Therefore, the hadith clearly does not say that one should be killed simply "because" they changed their religion, and the fact tha the Qur'an clearly states that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256) proves so. Furthermore, in Bukhari 9:89:318, a person comes to the prophet asking him to cancel his pledge of allegiance with islam.....and the prophet did nothing. There was no death involved. Debunked.

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #61 - September 11, 2011, 12:07 PM

Quote from: Fatihah on September 11, 2011, 11:59 AM
Resonse: An apostate is not innocent if they try to harm muslims or suddenly convert from islam and join the enemies of muslims while in battle. In these incidents, they are not innocent, but threatening and dangerous, and a muslim has a right to defend themself in self-defense.

how are you doing Fatihah?? you are partially right. But you know

Stupidity is a Bliss and Lucky are those who don't understand what stupidity means.

So, what battle are you talking and how do these apostate harm muslims dear Fatihah? They may harm some parts of Islam and Islamic scriptures but you are wrong saying they harm Muslims.,

Your definition of "Harm" is completely screwed up Fatihah

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #62 - September 11, 2011, 12:27 PM

A person who tries to attack and kill you or provides a way for a muslim to be killed is not a screwed up definition of "harm" but fits the exact definition of "harm" . So your logic once again fails.

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #63 - September 11, 2011, 12:38 PM

Quote from: Fatihah on September 11, 2011, 12:04 PM
Response: And the hadith clearlt says to kill those who change their religion, not "because" they change their religion. Therefore, the hadith clearly does not say that one should be killed simply "because" they changed their religion, and the fact tha the Qur'an clearly states that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256) proves so. Furthermore, in Bukhari 9:89:318, a person comes to the prophet asking him to cancel his pledge of allegiance with islam.....and the prophet did nothing. There was no death involved. Debunked.

Lolz, nice that you quote that Bukhari 9.89.318. Here is what it says:

Quote
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

A bedouin gave the Pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle for Islam. Then the bedouin got fever at Medina, came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge," But Allah's Apostle refused. Then he came to him (again) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused Then he came to him (again) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused. The bedouin finally went out (of Medina) whereupon Allah's Apostle said, "Medina is like a pair of bellows (furnace): It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good.

So in the hadith, the reason Muhammad didn't kill him is because technically, he is still a Muslim, because Muhammad refused to recognize his deconverstion, which ironically, is the same situation in my country. (Apostasy in Malaysia is illegal, and the malaysian government refuses to recognize apostates and consider them legally as muslims.)

And at the end, the bedouin had to evict out of Medinna, which ironically, is the same situation in my country, where the only way to legally apostasize from Islam is to leave my country and gain citizenship in another country.

And Muhammad even says that apostates are 'impurities' that needs to be cleared out from medinna. Such a loving and tolerant man.
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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #64 - September 11, 2011, 12:52 PM

A person is not a muslim because Muhammad says so, so suggesting that the person is still a muslim because Muhammad did not cancel their pledge is illogical. Secondly, Muhammad never cancels anyone's pledge in any hadith, even in hadiths when apostates were killed. So that would mean, according to your logic, Muhammad technically killed all muslims, not apostates. Your logic failed.

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #65 - September 11, 2011, 12:59 PM

Quote from: Fatihah on September 11, 2011, 12:27 PM
A person who tries to attack and kill you or provides a way for a muslim to be killed is not a screwed up definition of "harm" but fits the exact definition of "harm" . So your logic once again fails.

you talk silly and right rubbish dear Fatihah., What is that Kill kill business?? You went from apostates to killing.,

let me categorically state this to you..

"NO APOSTATE EVER IN THE HISTORY OF ISLAM KILLED A MUSLIM
for propagating/preaching/defending his apostasy. "

Writing against Muhammad's alleged words of Quran and sunnah or singing against alleged allah words of Quran is NOT killing Muslims. Please realize that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1XPoTN4qJg

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #66 - September 11, 2011, 01:26 PM

No where in any post of mine have I stated that an apostate ever killed a muslim for propagating/preaching/defending their apostasy. So once again another of the many weak strawman arguments of yours. They didn't work before, why would they work now.

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #67 - September 11, 2011, 01:29 PM

Fatihah, if there's no death to apostates, go tell the rest of the Muslim world. We'll be here waiting. Aiight?
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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #68 - September 11, 2011, 01:42 PM

I'm telling you now and you won't listen. So suggesting to tell the rest of the world is pointless.

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #69 - September 11, 2011, 01:48 PM

Trust me, we're not the ones you need to convince. We hold no monopoly over the name of Islam, nor any power for that matter.
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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #70 - September 11, 2011, 02:44 PM

Anyone who suggests that islam promtes killing apostates just because they changed their religion needs to be convinced, whether they are the monopoly or not, because such teaching is false, as proven from the Qur'an and Sunnah itself.

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #71 - September 11, 2011, 03:14 PM

Quote
Anyone who suggests that islam promtes killing apostates just because they changed their religion needs to be convinced, whether they are the monopoly or not, because such teaching is false, as proven from the Qur'an and Sunnah itself.

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f15/apostasy-50428/

Get to work then.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #72 - September 11, 2011, 03:23 PM

Quote from: Fatihah on September 11, 2011, 02:44 PM
Anyone who suggests that islam promtes killing apostates just because they changed their religion needs to be convinced, whether they are the monopoly or not, because such teaching is false, as proven from the Qur'an and Sunnah itself.

Lulz, then you had better get started. Good luck convincing more than 1 billion Muslims worldwide who believes otherwise.
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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #73 - September 11, 2011, 03:42 PM

Quote from: deusvult on September 11, 2011, 03:14 PM
http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f15/apostasy-50428/

Get to work then.

Resonse: Likewise.

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #74 - September 11, 2011, 03:45 PM

Quote from: truth_seeker on September 11, 2011, 03:23 PM
Lulz, then you had better get started. Good luck convincing more than 1 billion Muslims worldwide who believes otherwise.

Resonse: The fact that you're still alive and live in a city with a muslim population demonstrates that the claim of 1 billion muslims believing otherwise is absurd. To the contrary, it is you who needs luck in convincing billions of muslims that islam promotes killing apostates just because they changed their religion.

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #75 - September 11, 2011, 04:06 PM

Quote from: Fatihah on September 11, 2011, 03:45 PM
Resonse: The fact that you're still alive and live in a city with a muslim population demonstrates that the claim of 1 billion muslims believing otherwise is absurd. To the contrary, it is you who needs luck in convincing billions of muslims that islam promotes killing apostates just because they changed their religion.

That is because, like most apostates who live in Islamic states, I am a closet apostate, or what your Noble Quran would label as a munafiq.

Nobody knows of my apostasy. Not even my friends and family. If I were ever to announce my apostasy to my family, they will disown me. My own Muslim friends will despise me and leave me and speak ill words of me. If I were to announce it openly to the government, men in uniforms will come and take me away to 'reeducate' me in Repentance Camps, treating apostasy as some sort of mental illness. Apostasy is illegal, and my government does not recognize apostasy; which means legally, a Muslim will always be a Muslim no matter what he believes in. There are even state laws that mandates the death penalty for apostasy, and many Islamic NGOs have been lobbying for government to put up even more stricter anti-apostasy laws.
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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #76 - September 11, 2011, 04:51 PM

i am curious to know fatihah.. what is your opinion on the massacre of the men of banu quraidah? non-combatants were killed there.. seems to me it was a clear example of guilt by association. would non-muslims be justified in killing muslims this way? do you ever try to put yourself in an outsiders shoes and think of issues from their perspective?
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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #77 - September 11, 2011, 05:32 PM

Isn't the consensus of the ummah one of the sources of Islamic law? The vast majority of scholars believe that apostasy should be punished by death. Why is that the case, Fatihah? How come these people - most of whom are more knowledgeable Islam than you'll ever be - believe the death penalty to be just?

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #78 - September 11, 2011, 07:40 PM

Quote from: Fatihah on September 11, 2011, 03:42 PM
Resonse: Likewise.

I'm not sure what Im supposed to work on. You tell me killing apostates is bad, others say it is good. You all need to work this out.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #79 - September 11, 2011, 08:47 PM

The Penalties for Apostasy in Islam

Good book to read how Laws in Islam gets derived from Quran/hadith and sunnah..

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #80 - September 11, 2011, 08:55 PM

ok so hadith doesn't convince you ?

how about

Qur'an (2:193) - "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."

and how about this

Quote
عن ابن عمر رضي الله عنهما ، أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال : ( أمرت أن أقاتل الناس ، حتى يشهدوا أن لا إله إلا الله ، وأن محمدا رسول الله ، ويقيموا الصلاة ، ويؤتوا الزكاة ، فإذا فعلوا ذلك عصموا مني دماءهم وأموالهم إلا بحق الإسلام ، وحسابهم على الله تعالى ) رواه البخاري و مسلم
.

Book 1, Number 0033:

It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

(shitty translation it doesn't make it sound as it does in arabic)

also

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

please be open minded and think a little bit before you google answers for this and answers for that..

because mullahs and shiekhs job is to sugarcoat this stuff and make it justifiable even when they come with bullshit excuses.

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #81 - September 11, 2011, 09:17 PM

Quote
please be open minded and think a little bit before you google answers for this and answers for that..

because mullahs and shiekhs job is to sugarcoat this stuff and make it justifiable even when they come with bullshit excuses.

Unfortunately, they have been very successful, so you need something more than pure logic to breach the solid defense that has been created around infected minds.
That they have managed to fool so many people is a great tribute to their skills of deception.

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #82 - September 12, 2011, 01:37 AM

Quote from: truth_seeker on September 11, 2011, 04:06 PM
That is because, like most apostates who live in Islamic states, I am a closet apostate, or what your Noble Quran would label as a munafiq.

Nobody knows of my apostasy. Not even my friends and family. If I were ever to announce my apostasy to my family, they will disown me. My own Muslim friends will despise me and leave me and speak ill words of me. If I were to announce it openly to the government, men in uniforms will come and take me away to 'reeducate' me in Repentance Camps, treating apostasy as some sort of mental illness. Apostasy is illegal, and my government does not recognize apostasy; which means legally, a Muslim will always be a Muslim no matter what he believes in. There are even state laws that mandates the death penalty for apostasy, and many Islamic NGOs have been lobbying for government to put up even more stricter anti-apostasy laws.

Response: This is highly infortunate, in which I and any moral and decent person sympathizes with you. You do not deserve to be treated that way, just because you no longer believe in islam, but this is not the majority view of muslims that apostates should be treated in such a way, nor is it the teachings of islam, as proven by the Qur'an and Sunnah itself. It would serve you best to acknowledge that this is not the teaching of islam and support muslims in removing this degrading interpretation of the beautiful teachings of islam, but as long as you continue to state that the killing of apostates is the actual teaching of islam, you will be continuing to help promote a distortorted interpretation of islam, which will only result to you facing more hatred and danger towards your life. Muslims can not help you if you continue to slander their religion, nor will you be helping to make your situation better by promoting that islam teaches such a thing because islam has been around for 1400+ years and will continue to grow so you are only helping to grow what you despise.

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #83 - September 12, 2011, 01:44 AM

Quote from: 7amzah on September 11, 2011, 04:51 PM
i am curious to know fatihah.. what is your opinion on the massacre of the men of banu quraidah? non-combatants were killed there.. seems to me it was a clear example of guilt by association. would non-muslims be justified in killing muslims this way? do you ever try to put yourself in an outsiders shoes and think of issues from their perspective?

Response: No one deserves to be killed if they are not harming anyone. I do not put myself in anyone's shoes because it is not necessary for discouraging indecency and encouraging that which is good. One can do so in their own shoes.

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #84 - September 12, 2011, 01:46 AM

Quote from: GodIsNotGreat on September 11, 2011, 05:32 PM
Isn't the consensus of the ummah one of the sources of Islamic law? The vast majority of scholars believe that apostasy should be punished by death. Why is that the case, Fatihah? How come these people - most of whom are more knowledgeable Islam than you'll ever be - believe the death penalty to be just?

Response: The vast majority of scholars do not believe that the punishment for apostasy is death.

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #85 - September 12, 2011, 01:59 AM

Quote from: Kod on September 11, 2011, 08:55 PM
ok so hadith doesn't convince you ?

how about
(Clicky for piccy!)

Qur'an (2:193) - "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."

and how about this

Book 1, Number 0033:

It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

(shitty translation it doesn't make it sound as it does in arabic)

also

(Clicky for piccy!)

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

please be open minded and think a little bit before you google answers for this and answers for that..

because mullahs and shiekhs job is to sugarcoat this stuff and make it justifiable even when they come with bullshit excuses.

Response: Concerning 2:193, the answer is in the very verse you quoted, as you yourself quoted, "But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." Therefore, this once again demonstrates self-defense, as the verse clearly forbids waring with anyone who desists from waring with you.

As for the hadith and 9:29 of the Qur'an, I agree, both order muslims to fight, but the word "fight' does not mean "kill". Secondly, if you are suggesting that since the text says "fight" that this somehow means that islam promotes unjust violence, then according to your logic, Martin Luther King is a violent person. Why? Didn't he "fight" for civil rights? Exactly. The word "fight" has several definitions, one meaning to struggle or strive. Thus the hadith and the verse of the Qur'an simply states to strive in promoting the teachings of islam, not to physically use violence or force, as proven by verse 2:256 of the Qur'an, which states that there is no compulsion in islam.

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #86 - September 12, 2011, 02:01 AM

Quote from: Fatihah on September 12, 2011, 01:46 AM
Response: The vast majority of scholars do not believe that the punishment for apostasy is death.

I do not know which country you are from, or what brand of weed you're smoking, but you're terribly mistaken.
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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #87 - September 12, 2011, 02:02 AM

Yet your inability to prove otherwise supports to the contrary.

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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #88 - September 12, 2011, 02:14 AM

Quote from: Fatihah on September 12, 2011, 02:02 AM
Yet your inability to prove otherwise supports to the contrary.

Prove what? Every single Muslim worth their shahada knows and accepts that the penalty for apostasy is death. I can go to a nearby masjeed now, ask the imam there, and he will say the penalty for apostasy is death. All four of the classical imams supports death for apostasy. This is fact. This is the reality. Every single muslim knows this. You denying this is like denying that Zebras have stripes.

Which makes me wonder; what kind of secular, liberal, kafir-dominated country you are from? Have you even lived at least a few years in an Islamic country? Or are you simply so lost in your delusion that you fail to recognize reality?
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Re: Need help with an argument.
Reply #89 - September 12, 2011, 05:49 AM

Fatihah is same as many muslims here in pakistan ...they believe but in parallel they reject...and they try to make their point and say that mullahs has misinterpreted it.......fatihah is not answering about hadiths and verses but saying that for me its bad to kill innnocent...so it means quran and hadith are bad ...but no , fatihah wont believe that.....

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