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 Topic: Honour killings?

 (Read 6186 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Honour killings?
     OP - September 21, 2011, 01:42 AM

    There have been murders in the past week (can't find a link) and in the recent past in the UK which imo could be called honour killings.

    For instance

    A jealous wife who suspected her estranged husband of infidelity bludgeoned him to death as he ate lunch, before telling police: "If I can't have him, no one can", a court heard yesterday.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8572997/Wife-of-murdered-husband-told-police-If-I-cant-have-him-no-one-can-jury-is-told.html

    and the horrific killings in jersey when a polish man killed his family among others, which have been described thus in his native land


    In Poland the leading tabloid newspaper Fakt reported that police sources had said Rzeszowski murdered his Polish wife as an ‘honour killing’ to avenge her alleged betrayal of him by becoming pregnant by another man.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025933/Jersey-stabbing-Did-Damian-Rzeszowski-kill-family-wife-Izabela-betrayed-him.html#ixzz1YXwCxTwF

    And there are plenty more examples of husbands and wives killing each other which imo could make them out to be honour killings. happens a lot in Brazil also.

    The traditional honour killing in the east is seen as an islamic cultural thing, usually involving the older memebers of the family, usually fathers killing daughters (and boys die also)

    but can these not be the western equivalents, instaed the 'honour' is at married couple level.

    Is this less to do with islam/culture and more to do with control freakery by certain men (and to lesser extent women?)

    Just that it manifests itself differently according to the culture?


    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #1 - September 21, 2011, 10:19 PM

    Honour killing is different from spousal homicide

    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #2 - September 21, 2011, 10:46 PM

    It's not even spousal as such, could even involve someone wanting to be with a girlfriend and getting rebuffed, which causes a loss of honour (face) and because the guy is a control-freak he damages or kills the object of his affection. Because there is no concept of Honour in the western society (in the same sense) the society does not see this as honour.

    The Polish newspaper describes it as honour, (they can't here because they have to differentiate between ones committed by Asians and the rest.

    Othere countries such as Brazil, up to 1991, the killing of a spouse could be defended by the legitimate defense of honour'. Honour was used as an defence in spousal killings.

    Imo the control freakery inherent in some humans all over the world ,gives rise to uxoricide(killing wife) or filicide(killing daughter).

    The main difference is that eastern honour killing involves sometimes a number of people to make the decision to kill and the other crimes are by lone individuals but the end is the same, usually a dead female killed because she couldn't be controlled. The motivations are the same.

    So I say it is pyschologically-impaired individuals that are the constants, their culture differentiates the target, wife or sibling.

    Perhaps it all about how you define honour.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #3 - September 21, 2011, 11:15 PM

    ...........................

    Is this less to do with islam/culture and more to do with control freakery by certain men (and to lesser extent women?)

    Just that it manifests itself differently according to the culture?

    Good point .. but you must realize Islam with its male supremacy built in to its scriptures and baboons in mosques loud mouthing how females should behave with in the family + its Allah given multiple wives automatically  generates more control male freaks than any other religion and culture..

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGA8i6scYY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl8g8S6F3do

    do you find such tubes and such preaching in any other religious places?? ridiculous rubbish

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #4 - September 21, 2011, 11:37 PM

    Domestic Volence happens even in countries where the equality (of the sexes) nearly reaches parity, like say Scandanavia. It seems there is a inherent tendencies in all men, now matter what flavour they are wrapped in. Cause and Effect. Perhaps we are looking at the wrong thing. Instaed of religion and or culture we should be looking at evolution.

    You can't work something out of evolution, it just manifests itself differently. And I reckon, all things considered the killings like for like (same socio-status) even themselves out between white western society and any other society. There are as many control freak dads over there to equal control freak boyfriend/husbands over here.

    Male Patriarchy is inevitable - imo

    >>>>The Inevitability of Patriarchy is a book by Steven Goldberg published by William Morrow and Company in 1973. The theory proposed by Goldberg is that social institutions, that are characterised by male dominance, may be explained by biological differences between men and women (sexual dimorphism), suggesting male dominance (patriarchy) could be inevitable.<<<<

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inevitability_of_Patriarchy

    And to critics, I say it all stems from the sex differences in the human brain.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #5 - September 21, 2011, 11:48 PM

    You do know that in evolutionary terms the female rather her children be borne out of a union with an Alpha male but have a Beta male look after them. Hence the distrust, hence the control freakery.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #6 - September 22, 2011, 11:31 AM

    Domestic Volence happens even in countries where the equality (of the sexes) nearly reaches parity, like say Scandanavia.

    How are you doing Free Spirit? you start  the thread with "HONOR KILLING" and  moving on to Domestic Violence,  I ask you why??  You must realize the difference between the two., Please read this thread   all 26 pages and this thread and show me some incidents that are as frequent as you see in Male dominated Islamic nations. It is true in jungles, where animals rule and in   animal kingdom and in  male dominated kingdoms domestic violence on weaker sex will  be much more frequent than in other humanistic societies. But we are human beings we are supposed to evolve. Anyways give me some examples of domestic Violence that leads to parents killing children in Scandinavian or other 3rd world countries such as Tibet, or Jungles of Brazil ...

    Quote
    It seems there is a inherent tendencies in all men, now matter what flavour they are wrapped in. Cause and Effect. Perhaps we are looking at the wrong thing. Instaed of religion and or culture we should be looking at evolution.

    O.k. you look in to evolution.. so what do you do?? do you think you have a gene coded in male species for honour killing??
    Quote
    You can't work something out of evolution, it just manifests itself differently. And I reckon, all things considered the killings like for like (same socio-status) even themselves out between white western society and any other society. There are as many control freak dads over there to equal control freak boyfriend/husbands over here.

    I have  NO IDEA what you are saying dear Free Spirit., you are thinking freely without any restrictions and rules. Well let us watch Sam Harris..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNndF8RP7Lw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7OUm6UxPD4

    and let us start thinking..
    Quote
    Male Patriarchy is inevitable - imo

     Yes that is true in Jungles..

    Quote
    >>>>The Inevitability of Patriarchy is a book by Steven Goldberg published by William Morrow and Company in 1973. The theory proposed by Goldberg is that social institutions, that are characterised by male dominance, may be explained by biological differences between men and women (sexual dimorphism), suggesting male dominance (patriarchy) could be inevitable.<<<<

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inevitability_of_Patriarchy

    And to critics, I say it all stems from the sex differences in the human brain.

    Well we can not live with the rules and ideas published in 7th century,  17th century or in  1973..  Read the book and rip it off "HOWEVER GOOD THAT BOOK MAY BE".   There is always a room to improve upon any idea.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #7 - September 22, 2011, 11:36 AM

    You do know that in evolutionary terms the female rather her children be borne out of a union with an Alpha male but have a Beta male look after them. Hence the distrust, hence the control freakery.

    don't worry  about   this Alpha male .. beta male.. Genes.. Evolution.,  This honor Killing is a specific issue that is different from Domestic violence and Alpha  Beta males

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #8 - September 22, 2011, 02:09 PM

    How are you doing Free Spirit? you start  the thread with "HONOR KILLING" and  moving on to Domestic Violence,  I ask you why??  You must realize the difference between the two., Please read this thread   all 26 pages and this thread and show me some incidents that are as frequent as you see in Male dominated Islamic nations. It is true in jungles, where animals rule and in   animal kingdom and in  male dominated kingdoms domestic violence on weaker sex will  be much more frequent than in other humanistic societies. But we are human beings we are supposed to evolve. Anyways give me some examples of domestic Violence that leads to parents killing children in Scandinavian or other 3rd world countries such as Tibet, or Jungles of Brazil ...
    O.k. you look in to evolution.. so what do you do?? do you think you have a gene coded in male species for honour killing?? I have  NO IDEA what you are saying dear Free Spirit., you are thinking freely without any restrictions and rules. Well let us watch Sam Harris..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNndF8RP7Lw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7OUm6UxPD4

    and let us start thinking..  Yes that is true in Jungles..
    Well we can not live with the rules and ideas published in 7th century,  17th century or in  1973..  Read the book and rip it off "HOWEVER GOOD THAT BOOK MAY BE".   There is always a room to improve upon any idea.



    Afternoon , dear Yeezevee. The way I see it it was your goodself who moved it onto domestic violence, because from the still of one of those videos i read something about beating.  He is going to be possiblt talking about beating wives - with a stick. Muslims argue what constitutes a stick.

    In one way a truly violent husband if he is following Islam properly would hand out a beating that was possibly less severe than he would otherwise do.

    2 females a week die due to domestic violence in the UK.

    Enough of domestic violence.

    Yes I understand that they are different, but they both involve killing because a female could not be controlled (enough boys die to honour in countries like pakistan as well). Just that because the culture is different, the control-freakey exhibited plays out on different females, in the west on partners (and in Brazil and as described in Poland we have incidences of females dying at the hands of males and they define it as 'honour'.

    I fully agree with you that in muslim countries, its maleness gone nuclear but contend that in subtle ways the world even in the enlightened west is still run on male dominated themes.

    Parents killing children ala traditional honour killings is rarer in the West than the East but there are enough stories of husbands killing wives and children as revenge/honour define it like you like.

    When I bring up evolution, yes there are no gene codes for honour killings but contend that there is an evolutionary basis for male aggression against females.


    You say we evolve lol yes, but you are saying that the past forty-fifty years of humanism (which I am all for)is going to counteract the millions of years (depending on your cut-off point)of human evolution.

    An ape is an ape and has its nature, a human is a human and has its nature and if we evolve into a metahuman or whatever, that will have its own nature.


    I would like to take back my usuage of the terms alpha and beta, and just to say females, in evolutionary terms, would prefer their kids from one type of male and see them raised by another type of male and yes it is different to honour killings.
     

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #9 - September 24, 2011, 07:04 PM


     

    I would like to take back my usuage of the terms alpha and beta, and just to say females, in evolutionary terms, would prefer their kids from one type of male and see them raised by another type of male and yes it is different to honour killings.
     


    That's better but you have not gone the full distance and admitted that we might  all be at some time or the other  be victims of pop pseudo sciences,if we aren't careful with our generalizations.
    BTW that alpha male BS has been debunked.

    http://scienceblogs.com/clock/2009/08/no_more_alpha_male.php?utm_source=nytwidget

     In many ways cultural brainwashing is more dangerous than religious brainwashing.



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #10 - September 24, 2011, 10:23 PM

    Quote
    That's better but you have not gone the full distance and admitted that we might  all be at some time or the other  be victims of pop pseudo sciences,if we aren't careful with our generalizations.
    BTW that alpha male BS has been debunked.


    Hi hypocrucifer. Lol, those words alpha and beta only pooped into my head because I was reading those terms on this very forum lol, usually any other time it would have been like I wrote something about dominant men.

    Alpha and Beta maybe dead, it is not central to my argument. What is that there is evidence that in evolutionary terms women perfer one type of guy when they want to mate/have child and another (perhaps this is not their choice sometimes) to raise them.

    Quote
    In many ways cultural brainwashing is more dangerous than religious brainwashing.


    Indeed so, there was type of intellectual thinking that was trendy a few decades ago that suggested men and women had the same brains but patriarchal upbringing of children by cultural learning created stereotypical differences between men and women that favour male oppression of females..........Therefore social reformers could liberate women from partriarchal oppression by changing the environment of social learning to promote an androgynous society in which men and women would learn to think and act in virtually identical ways...........But just like advances of DNA has caught out all the old cold cases, this thinking has been found  wanting because brain imaging technology has shown us their are sex differences.


    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #11 - September 25, 2011, 06:33 AM

    It's a fallacy that the male of the human species is going to naturally create a patriatchial system,- if you look at history you will find that before 3000BC the societies were female ruled. This is evident from art, buriels, etc. The later patriarchial system tried to eliminate this, changing the female goddesses to male gods, erasing women from history, etc but there is a great deal of evidence to highlight that women are the natural superiors of the human race.

    In the patriarchial system we have men who are the leaders only because they have bullied their way there- this nature of men (to bully) goes hand in hand with their other negative traits including violence. Most violent crimes are enacted by men. Prior to the patriarchial rule, the society was extremely advanced. The idea of the caveman is flawed as there is evidence of civilisations thousands of years ago far more advanced than we give credit. These civilisations were ruled by women. The fact that archeological digs have uncovered elaborate female tombs while the men were buried without reverance, the statues, art etc depicted females, in addition these early matriarchial societies were peaceful supported by the habitats possessing no fortifications or weapons.
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #12 - September 26, 2011, 11:55 AM

    ^^^

    Saffire

    I tracked down 'socities were females ruled' from the clues in your post and narrowed it down to

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk

    >>>>>Çatalhöyük had no apparent social classes, as no houses with distinctive features (belonging to royalty or religious hierarchy, for example) have been found so far. The most recent investigations also reveal little social distinction based on gender, with men and women receiving equivalent nutrition and seeming to have equal social status, as typically found in Paleolithic cultures<<<<

    >>>>In an article in the Turkish Daily News, Hodder is reported as denying that Çatalhöyük was a matriarchal society and quoted as saying "When we look at what they eat and drink and at their social statues, we see that men and women had the same social status. There was a balance of power. Another example is the skulls found. If one's social status was of high importance in Çatalhöyük, the body and head were separated after death. The number of female and male skulls found during the excavations is almost equal."[19]
     
    In a report in September 2009 on the discovery of around 2000 figurines Hodder is quoted as saying:
     

    “Çatalhöyük was excavated in the 1960s in a methodical way, but not using the full range of natural science techniques that are available to us today. Sir James Mellaart who excavated the site in the 1960s came up with all sorts of ideas about the way the site was organised and how it was lived in and so on,” he said. “We’ve now started working there since the mid 1990s and come up with very different ideas about the site. One of the most obvious examples of that is that Çatalhöyük is perhaps best known for the idea of the mother goddess. But our work more recently has tended to show that in fact there is very little evidence of a mother goddess and very little evidence of some sort of female-based matriarchy. That’s just one of the many myths that the modern scientific work is undermining.”[20]
     
    Professor Lynn Meskell explained that while the original excavations had found only 200 figures, the new excavations had uncovered 2000 figurines of which most were animals, with less than 5% of the figurines women.[20]
     
    Estonian folklorist Uku Masing has suggested as early as in 1976, that Çatalhöyük was probably a hunting and gathering religion and the Mother Goddess figurine didn't represent female deity. He implied that perhaps a longer period of time was needed in order to develop symbols for agricultural rites<<<<




    In hunter-gatherer socities - women bought in more calories via picking berries/fruits etc than men did by hunting animals - sometimes men would come back empty-handed.

    Imagine if the earth vanquished today - and thousands of years later was unearthed, they too would find numerous pictures of females comapred to men - wouldn't mean that females ruled the earth.


    Personally speaking, I dont think evolution points to equality of the sexes but the sexes are complimentary   to each other. Kinda romantic, to think that there would be someone on earth who has the exact complimentary DNA to oneself.

    I think if socieites were ruled by women, nothing would get done - (city civilisations would never have been built/new lands discovered etc) look at bonobo society, who are our equal cousins along with chimpanzees, bonobo's are matriarchal, all they seem to do is to have sex.

    Partriarchal society - which I suppose came to the fore when humans started agriculture - and society had goods to leave to the next generation - which made it paramount that a father knew for sure that the offspring with any union (with female) were his - (this was made difficult because of hidden ovulation and the female tendency to fancy different types of men depending on where she was in her monthly cycle).

    Men and women are different- differences in the brain point this out. Note I am not saying one is better, just that they are complimentary.

    I would like to see the evidence of women being 'the natural superiors of the human race'.

    And finally for now - men suffer in a partriarchal society too, and it is unfair to blame all men - that is collective guilt, no?

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #13 - October 03, 2011, 02:35 AM

    If women ruled nothing would get done!? WTF are you on about. Even today remnants of matriarchy prevail. What is regarded as woman's work is the foundation of civilisation! You need to seriously study more!

    Many early civilisations have been discovered to be gynarchic, I can reference you some time but not now since it's late and I'm tired. If you read more than a single biased article you will discover how it's in fact quite plausible that there were no men to begin with, evidenced by the advanced physiological stage of development of the female of the human compared to the male. That the y chromosome is a mutation is not a new idea!

    That women ruled prior to 3000 bc- there is so much evidence that is constanly denied by patriarchial historians. Do you know that paternity was never an issue! That wealth and name was passed down the female line. Are you totally blind and ignorant to not know how patriarchial gods all stem from matriarchial ones, the male gods were once female. That women were the leaders of society- as I said this is proven by the little evidence that wasn't destroyed- including coins showing female rulers, females buried with more esteem, etc.

    If a future people looked at today's world and thought it was gynarcic? What do you base this on? What part of the world? If they looked in the west, or countries like Norway, they would find emergence of equality, in Iraq or saudi they would certainly find no suggestion of female rule!

    Men and women have different brains?

    Advantages of women:
    Greater intellect, evidenced by actual fact (exam results, etc)
    Women possess intuition which can be highly accurate.
    Women can multi task, they are less aggressive and more logical.
    Women carry a child for 9 months and give birth.

    Advantages of men:
    Men are stronger slightly (negated in todays world due to weapons and machinery!)
    they provide sperm (often an unintentional result of him trying to get his end off, not through duty or purpose!)

    The reality is men suffer because they mostly act without sense or compassion, then regret and suffer the mess they've made. You think men ruling has lead to utopia? I think not. The world is a violent messed up place. Women are criticised for being emotional, perhaps emotion is what's needed!

    You need evidence that women are superior? The fact is I don't think any gender or race should get a 'get out of jail free' card, we should each be judged on our own merits and faults. I don't desire a future where women take over and lord over men the way men have done to women for so long. I wish for true equality. Women and men are equal overall, some women are worse than some men, some women are better than some men, etc. It's foolish to bunch each gender together. However, I can tell you that thousands of years of patriarchy has pushed many women to excel and over achieve- in today's western society men are feeling low (diddums) because they are fast becoming superfluous now that women are earning money and taking care of the homes and not putting up with his 'I'm a man' bull shit. It's time men improved too and they are!- I'm so glad to be living in today's world. Today we see a glimpse of the future, where men and women work together, not against each other.
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #14 - October 03, 2011, 02:41 AM

    Many early civilisations have been discovered to be gynarchic, I can reference you some time but not now since it's late and I'm tired. If you read more than a single biased article you will discover how it's in fact quite plausible that there were no men to begin with

    Umm, no. By the time humans evolved the x and y chromosomes had long since been sorted. Sorry. There always were male and female humans (and every other primate, of course).


    Quote
    Advantages of women:
    Greater intellect, evidenced by actual fact (exam results, etc)
    Women possess intuition which can be highly accurate.
    Women can multi task, they are less aggressive and more logical.
    Women carry a child for 9 months and give birth.

    Advantages of men:
    Men are stronger slightly (negated in todays world due to weapons and machinery!)
    they provide sperm (often an unintentional result of him trying to get his end off, not through duty or purpose!)

    Cheesy You may wish to provide some support for your assertions.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #15 - October 03, 2011, 02:54 AM

    Saffire: are you aware that the concept of "women's intuition" originated because at the time it was thought that women could not possess actual intelligence? "Women's intuition" was a supposed explanation for how women could be perceptive about some things while being without real intelligence.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #16 - October 03, 2011, 03:22 AM

    Umm, no. By the time humans evolved the x and y chromosomes had long since been sorted. Sorry. There always were male and female humans (and every other primate, of course).



    Um no. 1. the y chromosome is less efficient than the x, 10 times more likely to mutate. 2. all foetus start as female 3. You ignore evidence that the y chromosome is a mutation of the x, that the male (mutated female) is less physically advanced (for example check the reproductive organs of female versus males), that the male genome is weaker and far more susceptible to illness and/or mutation.

    My comment was so mixed- overall I beleive in equality. Some things were actually heat of the moment knee jerk. To respond though:

    1. Women score higher intellectially- I suppose when looking at research and stats, you will find that the one the researcher wants to 'win' will win. This leads me to negate all studies since there is a balance of who's actually smarter. If you test any two groups, whatever the criteria (be it heighs, colour, weight, etc), one will score higher than the other. Unless the difference is significant, this can and should be negated. In intelligence studies men and women usually peform almost the same, and one excels depending on the type of study.

    2. Women do possess intuition as well as intelligence. This is why (I suppose) seers and psychics are most often women (they're not psychic, just have intuition). I can only vouch for myself and female friends- women tend to have 'feelings' about things/people far more than men, which turn out to be correct.

    3. Isn't it a fact that women are better at multi tasking? This has been researched a lot- seen doc's on TV etc (personally I suck at multi tasking!)

    4. You need evidence that women give birth and not men?  Huh?

    As for the male advantages, they need no analysis- men do provide little to child making and are only marginally stronger than women when taken as a whole.

    Like I said though, equality is the way. You seem to have overlooked that! The removal of gender bias is better for all, permitting each person to excel in the area that they feel they are strongest in without societal pressures. I have met many men who are wonderful 'mothers'- who are far better than some women at raising a child, and I have met women who are excellent bosses (from all bosses I've had, two were female and both were great, while all but one male was an asshole that kept trying to dominate and control!). All this gender role ability crap is so 90's! Grow up  Cat fight Cat fight Cat fight

  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #17 - October 03, 2011, 03:41 AM

    Um no. 1. the y chromosome is less efficient than the x, 10 times more likely to mutate. 2. all foetus start as female 3. You ignore evidence that the y chromosome is a mutation of the x, that the male (mutated female) is less physically advanced (for example check the reproductive organs of female versus males), that the male genome is weaker and far more susceptible to illness and/or mutation.

    1/In evolutionary terms, a lower mutation rate is not necessarily an indication of greater efficiency. Think about it.

    2/ No, they don't.

    3/

        a: I'm not ignoring it at all. If you wish to state that there were humans before there were men, provide some evidence from palaeoanthropology. Hint: you cannot do this.

        b: Define "physically advanced" in scientific terms.

        c: "Far more susceptible" is an exaggeration, given that the average lifespans of men and women are not   that far apart (on the order of 5-10 years out of around 80).

        d: As I have already pointed out, a higher mutation rate is not necessarily a disadvantage in terms of evolution, since evolution depends on mutation. Lower mutation rate = less opportunity for evolving something more efficient.


    Quote
    1. Women score higher intellectially- I suppose when looking at research and stats, you will find that the one the researcher wants to 'win' will win. This leads me to negate all studies since there is a balance of who's actually smarter. If you test any two groups, whatever the criteria (be it heighs, colour, weight, etc), one will score higher than the other. Unless the difference is significant, this can and should be negated. In intelligence studies men and women usually peform almost the same, and one excels depending on the type of study.

    So in other words, you are contradicting yourself by first saying "Women score higher intellectially" and then finishing with "In intelligence studies men and women usually peform almost the same".

    You might wish to use a spell checker too. Wink

    Quote
    2. Women do possess intuition as well as intelligence. This is why (I suppose) seers and psychics are most often women (they're not psychic, just have intuition). I can only vouch for myself and female friends- women tend to have 'feelings' about things/people far more than men, which turn out to be correct.

    Awesome evidence you have there. And of course men would be devoid of the capacity for similar intuition, right?

    Quote
    3. Isn't it a fact that women are better at multi tasking? This has been researched a lot- seen doc's on TV etc (personally I suck at multi tasking!)

    I don't know. Is it a fact? I can certainly multi task when necessary. You seem to be crap at it.

    Quote
    4. You need evidence that women give birth and not men?  Huh?

    Cheesy No. I just block quoted your entire rant.


    Quote
    Like I said though, equality is the way. You seem to have overlooked that!

    You reckon?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Honour killings?
     Reply #18 - October 03, 2011, 10:30 PM

    Why do people try to put down with comments about grammar and spelling? Frankly, it's pathetic. You REeeeeeeeally think I take time to formulate my response? Type accurately, ensure spelling and grammer is perfect before pressing send? You gota be kidding. FYI I spell quite good and the errors are due to fast typing added to the fact that I often stay up waaaaaaay too late and come onto this forum (write when super sleepy).

    Do you believe perfect spellign is an indication of intelekt? If you do then that's so stoopid- my ex was/is a doctor and way more academically intelligent than me, but my vocabulary and spelling etc far exceeded his. What does this mean? Absolutely nothing.

    Regarding the gender/intelligence thing- you clearly misread/misunderstood me- I was retracting the statement women are more intelligent and saying that both are generally equal

    male y chromosome mutations:
    The human Y chromosome has lost 1,393 of its 1,438 original genes over the course of its existence. With a rate of genetic loss of 4.6 genes per million years, the Y chromosome may potentially lose complete function within the next 10 million years... (due to) high mutation rate, inefficient selection and genetic drift

    The human Y chromosome is unable to recombine with the X chromosome, except for small pieces of pseudoautosomal regions at the telomeres (which comprise about 5% of the chromosome's length). These regions are relics of ancient homology between the X and Y chromosomes

    Translation, thr Y chromosome evidently arose from the X chromosome

    Women more evolved:
    The genitals of human females are the highest evolved of all creatures
    This is all I know on the subject. There is info about how the male of the human species has developed better due to the smarter sexual selection by women (i.e. women ensuring they only select the best males to mate with and pass on genes)- but I don't know enough about this to comment. There is also something I read about how lame the selection criteria is with men, and that their choices of females (esp. during patriarchial ages) has lead to a devolution of females- this is expected when the criteria historically was a weak and servile woman (who would no doubt pass on weak and servile genes to her female AND male offspring resulting in an overall crappier male and female genome). This topic is vast and needs more thought and research so will return to it in future perhaps.

    All babies start female:
    Gender is determied by sperm- however for the first 6 weeks or so all babies (foetus) start as female, with male characteristics developing later highlighting how man comes from woman and not the other way round countrary to what the bible would have you believe! The Y chromosome only represents approx. 2% of the male genome (just thought I'd include this fact to highlight that perhaps men and women are more similar than people like to think!)

    Re intuition- I don't even know why this is important/relevant. No idea why I even mentioned it. Even if women are better at this, it's sort of like saying women are better at guessing and are 30% right while men are only 10% right- sill point to discuss. Throw this!

    The other day I was having this conv. with a guy and I realised (we were both arguing on the side of our respective genders)- when people say their gender is superior- perhaps what (s)he's really saying is I'm superior? Being born and raised muslim, one thing I hated and fought against was the FACT that women are lame and inferior- I have struggled my whole life to PROVE this is a lie, excelling to a point where I can do anything that a man can do. Most men I know (my bf is the only awesome one I know!!) are inferior to me, unable to perform the very tasks they raise above their heads to claim superiority and I think, 'ppfffft, I'm better than you.'

    I go in circles with this. My militant anger at the LIES makes me say men are lame, esp since all men in my family ARE lame! Then logic and sense makes me see that no person can claim superiority due to gender, that each person should be judged on his/her own merits. All I can say is that men are not better than women, and women are not better than men, but I'M BETTER THAN MOST PEOPLE  Tongue ( in the sense of tasks as in I can cook, perform domestics adequately, do DIY well, have a good job with a good income, etc. Also, I'm a great shot with a rifle and shotgun (a natural!!!), and super awesome at computer games, and I bet I can jump higher than you Tongue

    Ha-Ha-haha-ha  dance

    I'm not insecure, honest. Please love me!
  • Honour killings?
     Reply #19 - September 05, 2013, 05:15 AM

    I honestly cannot express how it makes my blood boil when they refer to it as an "honour" killing. Nothing honourable about it.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Honour killings?
     Reply #20 - September 05, 2013, 07:25 PM

    The OP sounds like apologist bullshit.

    Honour killing is a cultural phenomenon and cannot be isolated to isolated incidents.

    Patriarchal society sanctioned by scripture to take the life of a woman who has deemed to 'gone astray' is not equivalent to a jealous wife/husband killing their significant other out of jealousy.

    The term 'honour killing' is not a flippant term imposed by the West but it is used by those who commit this atrocity to justify the, at times, public murder of a woman (men perhaps?) for violating either/or a cultural norm or religious principle.

    The fact that the West has legislated against this, that 'honour killings' are done in relative secrecy and that most those who commit honour killings are from a Middle Eastern/Subcontinental background say a lot.

    To say that x is equivalent to y is to dismiss the essential variables briefly outlined above is to dilute the issue and insult the victims of this vile, cowardly crime.

    Furthermore, I consider postmodernist sociological/ethical relativism do be loathsome as it at times suffers from the curse of fallacy of false equivalence and hyperbole.. But that is another issue.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Honour killings?
     Reply #21 - September 05, 2013, 07:35 PM

    Quote from: devilsadvokat link=topic=17863.msg507160#msg507160
    Personally speaking, I dont think evolution points to equality of the sexes but the sexes are [b
    complimentary  [/b] to each other. Kinda romantic, to think that there would be someone on earth who has the exact complimentary DNA to oneself.



    I'm sorry but I call  Penises bullshit

    Strictly speaking, no one is 'equal' to the other. We are all same and different. Intellectually, physically, emotionally...all this depends upon our social and natural environment e.g. cultural conscience, diet, opportunities etc. Sure, there is a genetic component and you can point out to some differences between men and women, but even in between the men there are vast differences. Are you to say then that not all men are equal but are complimentary. If I am more qualified then you am I superior to you?

    Enough of this BS about 'not equal but complimentary' Muslim apologist BS. No one is strictly speaking equal. This is the greatest myth. We are all only equal in the grand cosmic insignificance we have all been stamped with given that we burst out of a supernovae some billion odd years ago.

    You will find a man who you can beat, but then you will find a woman who will no doubt be able to kick your arse from here to Rawalpindi...




    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Honour killings?
     Reply #22 - September 05, 2013, 07:45 PM

    The OP sounds like apologist bullshit.

    Honour killing is a cultural phenomenon and cannot be isolated to isolated incidents.

    Patriarchal society sanctioned by scripture to take the life of a woman who has deemed to 'gone astray' is not equivalent to a jealous wife/husband killing their significant other out of jealousy.

    The term 'honour killing' is not a flippant term imposed by the West but it is used by those who commit this atrocity to justify the, at times, public murder of a woman (men perhaps?) for violating either/or a cultural norm or religious principle.

    The fact that the West has legislated against this, that 'honour killings' are done in relative secrecy and that most those who commit honour killings are from a Middle Eastern/Subcontinental background say a lot.

    To say that x is equivalent to y is to dismiss the essential variables briefly outlined above is to dilute the issue and insult the victims of this vile, cowardly crime.

    Furthermore, I consider postmodernist sociological/ethical relativism do be loathsome as it at times suffers from the curse of fallacy of false equivalence and hyperbole.. But that is another issue.


    BTW: I am spewing my venom at the post itself and not the poster.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Honour killings?
     Reply #23 - September 05, 2013, 08:15 PM

    Although you did open an interesting can of worms on not everyone being equal. Being equal before the law is an important thing I think. Obviously some people are smarter than others, faster than others, stronger than others, more easily able to adapt than others, more artistic than others, but having the equal right to strive, to achieve is a wonderful thing.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Honour killings?
     Reply #24 - September 05, 2013, 08:27 PM

    ^^^^^^

    But such legislation e.g. UDHR was created on account of people discriminating against one another. It was against the background of the suffragette movement, the Holocaust, colonisation, war, fascist ideologies and not to mention secularisation. It was more about rights and responsibilities that we have towards one another thus recognising the fact that we are not equal and that others would seek to exploit this inequality between the people.

    Even though legislation in general, in principle, seeks to protect the masses, it is in practise the elite who escape justice. It is mostly in secularised democracies were this practise is highlighted and remedies implemented to restore, not equality, but a system of checks and balances.

    Law exists because of inequalities and not in spite of it. And a bloody good thing too.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Honour killings?
     Reply #25 - September 05, 2013, 11:00 PM

    I honestly cannot express how it makes my blood boil when they refer to it as an "honour" killing. Nothing honourable about it.



    The Danish/Syrian former politician Naser Khader published a book in 1996 called Honour and Shame in which he gives a very detailed description of Islam and the Arab way of life in order to give us Danes and insight into the cultural background of the Muslim immigrants and thus a better basis for an understanding of the baggage they bring with them. Understanding he feels leads to tolerance if not necessarily to acceptance.

    About male honour he writes the following :

    Quote: For a man honour is primarily attached to his ability to provide for his family. A man who does not with his own blood, sweat and labour provide for his family, but just passively receives help, is principally a man without honour. It is even worse if he is provided for by his wife. He does not live up to his role as a breadwinner and therefore loses his honour.

    The other thing attached to the man´s honour is his ability to defend and create respect for his family. He is expected to react aggressively and resolutely if someone insults his family either in word or deed. If he does not, he shames himself and his family. It is expected, that if a female member of the family is harassed or offended, that the man shows that he has a moustache (that is to say, that he has strength enough to cleanse the honour and rehabilitate it) If he does not react or does not show the moustache, he shames the family and will be regarded as weak/feckless and others will not be deterred from doing the same again. In other words, reacting  resolutely  the man draws a thick line in the sand which is not to be transgressed.

    The third thing attached to the man´s honour is his ability to guard and protect the family´s a´ard, the sex honour, that is to say the sexual conduct and virtue of the female family members. It is his task to see to it, that the hymen of the daughter/sister stays intact and that when she marries, she is faithful to her husband. The man has, as father and brother, a lifelong responsibility for the way in which the daughter/sister administrates her sexlife – even when she is married. If a married sister goes astray, it is primarily her biological male family members duty to show that they have moustaches.

    If the man fails to protect the family´s sex honour, if f.inst. his sister loses her hymen before marriage, the faces of all the family members are blackened. The family is shamed and there will not be many who will want to socialize with or marry into that family. It is not only the girl in question´s chances of getting married that are reduced, it is her siblings too. Potential families in law will fear, that her sisters are like her – not virtuous. Her brothers chances of marrying into good families are reduced too because people will think:”If they cannot protect their sister, how can they protect their wife – our daughter.

    In the small communities in the rural areas, the one who cannot guard the family´s sex honour is regarded as a faggot, a wimp and a pariah, that not many want to have anything to do with. Unquote.

    While I can see what the motivation is (they will be social outcasts if they don´t do something), I still don´t see how killing the woman cleanses the family´s honour.

    Some years ago I saw a TV program from Jordan about a number of girls who were in jail because that was the only place they would be safe from their families who wanted to kill them. One 17 years old girl was not that “lucky”. She had sullied the family honour by being raped and was shot by her brother. Despite the fact that, as he said, she was his favourite sister.

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Honour killings?
     Reply #26 - September 05, 2013, 11:18 PM

    Very different view of honour than what I was raised with. Just all about control and what other people think.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Honour killings?
     Reply #27 - September 06, 2013, 11:42 AM

    lol necromancer - Quod you decided to resurrect one of my old threads.

    Some say it is an extension of - rounding up a big posse to track down when someone stole/rustled your goats of your side of the mountain etc. Maybe in small communities where this exists the shock would not that a murder has been committed by committee in terms of honour but that individual took it upon himself to kill another for reasons of say sexual jealousy.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Honour killings?
     Reply #28 - September 10, 2013, 04:15 PM

    Very different view of honour than what I was raised with. Just all about control and what other people think.

    Honour killing and Honour related violence are technical terms that professionals need to use. On my Facebook account I, every now and then, see updates from my friends who work in the field with a random 'Oh for fucks sake, not again!!!'. This is something they just have to hammer into people over and over again. Smiley
    One of the words that isn't mentioned here is Sharaf, The male honour.
    The tourist version you get is something like this.
    -Sharaf means honour,
    -You get honour by doing good deeds, being hospitable and help the ones in need...
    Though it's a bit more complex. I had it explained to me once by this guy from Turkey who works with honour related violence.
    -Sharaf is the mans honour.
    -He has the honour, but the women in the family 'carries it' for him through their virtue...
    Yup. It's pretty archaic, hard to grip and worth to let go of...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_codes_of_the_Bedouin
    I propose the 'Just don't be a dick' code-of-honour as an alternative.

    As for the original post these cases wouldn't qualify as honour related. It's also not an isolated muslim thing. Some of the hardest controlling societies are already exposed minorities like some Christians groups in Iran.
    When it comes to plain old domestic violence these cases follow a clear pattern and you see these within honour cultures as well. The man is jealous and starts to gradually control his woman more and more. Finally it escalates to physical violence and she escapes to a shelter. She forgives him, returns to the home and they live together happily for one month and then the cycle repeats. It's just as technical as the honour related stuff and also very hard to deal with.

    I don't know how you classify honour related stuff when you go a bit to the east like India.
    Ps. I'm not a professional in this or any related field.
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