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Theme Changer

 Topic: Islamic Financial System

 (Read 3546 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Islamic Financial System
     OP - September 22, 2011, 04:46 AM

    In my Introduction post, I said that I find little or no sense in the Islamic Banking System, I admit Smiley I should have been more specific but like they say its never too late.

    My argument was more around the fact that Islam wants to bring a rather Islamic Financial System instead of just Islamic Banking itself. Islamic Banking is just a part of the whole umbrella of Islamic Financial System. Lets analyze it:

    1. Islam, as its obvious from its teachings categorically rejects the Interest. No matter what they call it, Yusuri, Ribba, Interest or Hakunamatata we dont care really. The bottom line is that they believe that God doesnt like Interest and has prohibited them from charging or paying Interest. Its a different debate that there is a great dispute between Muslim Scholars themselves where the Quranists say that Quran although talks about Yusuri but does not really define what it is and leave a room for people to interpret the meanings of it based on current conditions people are living in. The hardcore Mullah scholars have a different view, they like to refer to Hadith where for example Prophet told them that even Money Exchange is an evil thing unless it is done directly, the words used are "hand to hand".

    2. We need to understand the different elements of Islamic Financial System, based on what I explained above the Islam  basically discourages the role of a Broker or Agent. For some reason, Islam thinks that when Money is being exchanged there must be no room for a third-party facilitator i.e. a Broker. Quite ironically, typical to the Islamic nature of teachings, Prophet forgot to put an end to the Broker Dealing when you're buying Fruits, Meat, Cars, Tickets or any other thing in life. Question arises what made him to stop people from using Brokers when it comes to the Money Exchange. The answer is Jews (thats a different story that Jews themselves had restrictions for Interest in Torah but they were slightly different) ...

    3. Islam also failed to recognize the significant force when it comes to the Money Market and that is the Inflation. Interestingly, its not because Inflation did not exist in Pagan Arabian Society or the civilizations that lived before them but rather it was caused of lack of knowledge of things really worked in the Money Market at that time. Hatred towards money and prosperity perhaps started right from the day one when Jews rejected Mohammad as the Prophet and he started hating everything that Jews were good at. Knowledge and Eduction are the other two things besides money.

    4. Zakat as a concept fails horribly in the modern times, no state or Govt can run their Financial System based on this concept of 2.5% Tax. Mohammad also failed to think about Money in Transaction and decided to put Zakat on the Assets which are possible to be cashed and are with you right now. This is was a nice idea at that time because the Prophet himself ans his companions were suffering from a severe poverty and were seriously short on money. Zakat was started more as a kinf of Helping Hand or Welfare system but then it turned into a solution which should be implemented by the state or Govt.

    Mudarba or whatever they call it, hasn't been able to come up with an alternate solution to the Inflation. Some scholars assumed that Islam is basically rejecting the Fixed Interest so they came up with Islamic Banking where the Interest is dynamic and depends on the market conditions. However, thats still not a solution.

    Another school of thought in Muslims believe that the one of the reasons why Islamic Banking hasnt been able to fly yet is because there is no true Islamic state (yes, they dont even consider Saudia true Islamic State) at present in this modern world. They believe that Islamic Banking can not be implemented in isolation and it has to get a support from Shariah Law such as a total ban on Pork, Alcohol, Gambling Products and other things Islam considers as evil.

    Please feel free to float your ideas ...
  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #1 - September 22, 2011, 05:05 AM

    Seems a bit silly to prohibit interest. In any other field it's acceptable to get some extra return over your costs, so it's a bit daft to prevent that in finance (which is a service just like any other, really).

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #2 - September 22, 2011, 05:44 AM

    Problem is that a lot of people have tried to provide justifications for a Shariah based Islamic Financial System because they see that everything that is bad in Financial World is because of Interest Charges ...

    In my previous post on Intro page, I explained that Ups and Downs are the natural forces of Financial world and every correction is actually a good thing ... as long as it remains a correction and wasnt a man-made thing Smiley
  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #3 - September 22, 2011, 05:53 AM

    Well, the corrections are arguably man-made things. When you have a boom which is really a bubble based on rampant speculation, and then get the inevitable bust when traders start realising they've made the prices up without much real basis, that's not exactly a random force of nature.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #4 - September 22, 2011, 06:05 AM

    You said "Well, the corrections are arguably man-made things"

    I would respectfully disagree ...
  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #5 - September 22, 2011, 06:07 AM

    You're allowed to. Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #6 - September 22, 2011, 06:19 AM

    Brokers are haram? Does that mean the stock/foreign exchange are haram? LOL!
    And yeah the interest thing is rather funny. I'm kind enough to financially support myself when they fall on hard times but when I give them $1000 today and they return it after say 5 years, if I don't charge interest, I lose money, so, I lend them money in gold and ask them to pay back in gold whatever its price may be after those 5 years  grin12

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #7 - September 22, 2011, 09:46 AM

    Im glad you took the time to explain more in details particularly. 2 and 3 which is new to me but still i dont see anything wrong with the system being used since people of different faith are using it. Let me explain by quoting your posts;

    Problem is that a lot of people have tried to provide justifications for a Shariah based Islamic Financial System because they see that everything that is bad in Financial World is because of Interest Charges ...

    In my previous post on Intro page, I explained that Ups and Downs are the natural forces of Financial world and every correction is actually a good thing ... as long as it remains a correction and wasnt a man-made thing Smiley



    That is not the case, the problem is most conventional banks especially in Nigeria set high interest rate which makes it impossible for a citizen to borrow money from them plus they only care about giving loans to the multinational companies e.g. There is one time when a first generation bank were desperate to give loan to Shell Oil Company but they refused because of the high interest rate set by the Bank,the officials of the bank seeing that they couldnt convince them to take the loan and for fear of losing them as a customer to another bank,they went back to them and told them "fine you can set an interest rate to your liking just please accept the loan from us". To make it even worse those conventional banks werent giving out loans to people that needed it to operate their business which would boost the economy,no, they give loans to politicians for campaign(which they fail to return most of the time),they also give loans to certain individuals and financial firms that invests it in stock markets for quick returns,as a result of that the stock market crash and the Banks are now trouble, as i am posting this now, 3 Nigerian Banks have been nationalised because they fail to recapitalise their funds due to their debt and couldnt liquadate their assets.

    Islamic Banking system was a relief to most of the people over here especially the christians for pragmatic reasons, they can get loan from them, if they make profits, they share (50/50,70/30 etc) or share the losses together,i mean come on, if a small business owner like me sees this opportunity i will gladly take it, because it seems fair deal to me. I wont have to worry how much i will pay back with an interest in one,two,five or more years.

    Had it been they want to impose this system on the country, that would have been a different case.like i said i only see it as a financial vehicle and its available to non-muslims.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #8 - September 22, 2011, 11:07 AM

    my friend Ninja Infidel, just because Nigerian Govt is unable to implement tighter financial regulations doesnt prove INTEREST is the satanic thing Smiley these are two different things.

    By the way, I wouldnt mind if I can find an Islamic Bank which can give me a loand and leave me alone  whistling2
  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #9 - September 22, 2011, 11:12 AM

    Yupps, Brokers / Agents are discouraged ... hand to hand is what is suggeste in Islam.

    We've a lot of Customers on our Forex Desk who happen to be Muslims, there first demand is not to chanrge them Interest or pay them Swaps for the Leverage they are using. Banks and other Forex Brokers have come up with a new innovative idea of a Leverage COMMISSION which means they are charged a fixed commission on the amount of leverage they are using for their trades ...
  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #10 - September 22, 2011, 11:16 AM

    A friend on another forum posted a question to Muslim Camp to explain the Mathematical logic behind the following Inheritance equation ... so far no one has been able to explain properly:

    If you have a man who dies and he leaves this family:
    2 parents,
    2 daughters,
    and a wife,
    how can the math work out?
    The mom gets a 1/6,
    the dad gets a 1/6,
    the daughters get 2/3
    and the wife gets an 1/8.

    So that works out to 27/24.
    How is that possible?

     Huh?
  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #11 - September 22, 2011, 11:23 AM

    my friend Ninja Infidel, just because Nigerian Govt is unable to implement tighter financial regulations doesnt prove INTEREST is the satanic thing Smiley these are two different things.

    By the way, I wouldnt mind if I can find an Islamic Bank which can give me a loand and leave me alone  whistling2


    Where did you see me saying that Interest is a satanic thing wacko . Im only pointing out that the Islamic Banking system is not as bad as you guys are making it out to be. It can be a good alternative option for one to use it.Please dont put words into my mouth.

    Good to know about the brokers/agents though i havent encountered or heard a case like this before.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #12 - September 22, 2011, 11:45 AM

    Ninja ... Dont take me wrong mate, all i'm trying to say is that the system is not a realistic one and cant be implemented in the modern world with its biggest problem being that it completely ingnores the Inflation ... and not to mention the fact that it wasnt to put an end to a lot of industries

    The only way it can be implemented is by force ... not that by Gun or anything but by going an extra mile and somehow make it work in a smaller circle to prove its working ... Kinda Prototype ...

  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #13 - September 22, 2011, 12:08 PM

    Its ok,we are just having a discussion and im trying to understand fully about it since you know more about it Smiley



    I understand about the inflation part especially when it comes to depositing money in a current or saving account which of course it seems silly if interest is not added to it, but the reason why i see it as a good thing is that one doesnt have to worry about paying loan back with an interest on top of it. Contrary to what you said that its not realistic and cant be implement,well it does seem to be working in most capitalist countries such as UK,US,Malaysia,Singapore,Hong Kong,South Africa and Other European Countries,there seem to be a good progress.

    Overall, im sure there is a similar banking system to that, and its almost similar to doing business with Venture Capitalists,only that its an institution.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #14 - September 22, 2011, 12:15 PM

    I already explained how and why it can work ...
  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #15 - September 22, 2011, 12:56 PM

    A friend on another forum posted a question to Muslim Camp to explain the Mathematical logic behind the following Inheritance equation ... so far no one has been able to explain properly:

    If you have a man who dies and he leaves this family:
    2 parents,
    2 daughters,
    and a wife,
    how can the math work out?
    The mom gets a 1/6,
    the dad gets a 1/6,
    the daughters get 2/3
    and the wife gets an 1/8.

    So that works out to 27/24.
    How is that possible?

     Huh?


    Simple... you take out 1/8 and treat the remaining as 6 parts, 2 for the parents, 4 for the daughters.

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #16 - September 22, 2011, 12:57 PM

    Ninja sounds better  Afro

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Islamic Financial System
     Reply #17 - September 23, 2011, 02:44 PM

    Simple... you take out 1/8 and treat the remaining as 6 parts, 2 for the parents, 4 for the daughters.


    aaaand the wife gets fuck all
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