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Theme Changer

 Topic: Are atheists missing the point?

 (Read 11923 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Are atheists missing the point?
     OP - September 23, 2011, 09:07 PM

    An interesting philosophical musing. Does it really matter what we believe? Even if it's complete nonsense? Do we  humans at a fundamental level need religion, myths, superstition & ritual. I wonder if this is satisfying a deep down inherent need in many of us. I know I sometimes feel a sense of emptiness & even sadness when I reflect & ponder on the human condition & I think that for many religion & the way of life that goes with it provides some relief, direction, order & security in what seems to be a pointless existence in a pointless universe.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14944470

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #1 - September 23, 2011, 09:11 PM

    Yes, I think it does matter. The problem with not examining beliefs is that you can be lead into believing things that are detrimental to your quality of life, and the quality of life of the people around you.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #2 - September 23, 2011, 09:28 PM

    Osmanthus- Are you saying that all those who do examine their beliefs somehow automatically & consequently have a better quality of life & give a better quality of life to those around them? If so, how? I don't follow.

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #3 - September 23, 2011, 09:30 PM

    No, not automatically. Possibly.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #4 - September 23, 2011, 09:43 PM

    Belief in something that isn't real can be negative in that it removes accountability. People who believe strongly in religion try less, they wait for the 'good life' to come after they die instead of improving their lives here and now! They put their hands up when bad things happen, assigning some godly reason for this 'punishment'. I have seen, in my experience, that the religious people are generally less successful, less educated and more miserable seeing the 'devil' around every corner! They wait for god to make things happen, they are miserable from guilt over every little thing which makes them mentally fucked up. It's so sad how they suffer and regard themselves so lucky to suffer, relishing in it almost convincing themselves their reward for it will come in the afterlife!

    In addition, religion is wrapped up with dogma which is detrimental. Yes, people can be cruel and bad, but religion makes good people bad such as when muslims who are good people try to argue why it's right that slavery is OK, that oppression of women is good, why rape may be acceptable, why a woman is blamed for rape, why it's ok for a 50+ yr old man to marry a 6yr old child!

    Until religion is globally abandoned (or largely) then humanity has little hope of advancing.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #5 - September 23, 2011, 10:02 PM

    The reason we tend to feel sadness when we stop believing in a higher being is that we're socially and historically conditioned to seek a higher truth. As Nietzsche put it, nihilism is a result of Christianity committing suicide -- Christianity being the drive that has pushed Western thought toward search for the Absolute Truth.

    Personally, I have no desire to find a higher truth. In the words of Bakunin, "if God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish Him." Whenever someone tells me we need a religion or higher purpose to find happiness, I recall to them the time I almost reverted to Islam and how depressed it made me feel. I felt shackled by the contradiction between my self-conscious and the necessity of following a truth outside of me, a truth I cannot relate to and will never understand. If such a truth exists, it would be the biggest injustice in the Universe.

    I am an existentialist, a metaphysical anarchist, and it is this freedom that gives me happiness.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #6 - September 23, 2011, 10:05 PM

    I think belief in something can also give you strength, an emotional foundation, and you never have to 'get lost', you'll always find some ground where you can centre yourself. Those without religion, or those who have left religion would probably have travel more in their minds to find something that satisfies them, deep down, or maybe never even finding that grounding factor.

    Thing is those without religion must find/make their own anchor, whereas those with religion, or some strong belief 'given' to them from some else they don't have those troubles - maybe some questions it sometimes, but those who undoubtedly follow they have that one less human-'issue' they have to deal with. That is the big questions, what on earth are we living for? and of importance...etc etc

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #7 - September 23, 2011, 10:54 PM

    I am an existentialist, a metaphysical anarchist, and it is this freedom that gives me happiness.


    Abood- You have the passion & vigour of youth. It comes across & I can understand that but I think as you get older your inner being longs for something more, even though what you long for might not even exist.

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #8 - September 23, 2011, 10:56 PM

    Possibly. I hope not. Don't get me wrong, I used to be a nihilist. The lack of objective truth in my life used to make me extremely depressed and there were times it turned suicidal. But through studying philosophy I have come to realize that higher truth comes at the price of freedom.

    I do believe in universal truth, but I don't believe it's disconnected from the subjects themselves, i.e. I don't believe in the subject-object dichotomy. I am the truth, you are the truth, and together, all of humanity, all of the animal kingdom, all of the Earth, all of the Cosmos put together -- that is the truth.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #9 - September 23, 2011, 11:07 PM

    Thing is those without religion must find/make their own anchor, whereas those with religion, or some strong belief 'given' to them from some else they don't have those troubles


    Wise words Stardust. I think I'm in the process of looking for my anchor to steady the ship but for me personally I know it aint the literal so called truth of any religion. Anyways- night all.

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #10 - September 24, 2011, 05:14 AM

    I think belief in something can also give you strength, an emotional foundation, and you never have to 'get lost', you'll always find some ground where you can centre yourself. Those without religion, or those who have left religion would probably have travel more in their minds to find something that satisfies them, deep down, or maybe never even finding that grounding factor.

    Thing is those without religion must find/make their own anchor, whereas those with religion, or some strong belief 'given' to them from some else they don't have those troubles - maybe some questions it sometimes, but those who undoubtedly follow they have that one less human-'issue' they have to deal with. That is the big questions, what on earth are we living for? and of importance...etc etc


    ^This and in addition to hers, i think one needs to know what his personal principles are,we may not know but it takes a lot of thinking for one to figure out.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #11 - September 24, 2011, 07:37 AM

    Abood- You have the passion & vigour of youth. It comes across & I can understand that but I think as you get older your inner being longs for something more, even though what you long for might not even exist.

    I find it doesn't HS. As I've grown older I've become more content with my decision, at an early age, to ditch religion.
     As I've seen Science advance and provide even more of the answers that religion once purported to answer I can see that there are no 'Big Questions', just Humans who'd like to think that a hairless, anthropoid ape is something special.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #12 - September 24, 2011, 07:40 AM

    Yup, gotta agree with that. I don't mind that it's meaningless. It's still not pointless (in my subjective opinion, obviously).

    Also, who says that getting older means a loss of passion? Grin

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #13 - September 24, 2011, 07:45 AM

    Yes, I think it does matter. The problem with not examining beliefs is that you can be lead into believing things that are detrimental to your quality of life, and the quality of life of the people around you.


    Oh yes beliefs need examining. No doubt about that!

    But to remove belief system from people that are not ready can be detrimental as well.


    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #14 - September 24, 2011, 07:59 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDZFf0pm0SE

    dance Tongue

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #15 - September 24, 2011, 08:27 AM

    Quote
    As I've seen Science advance and provide even more of the answers that religion once purported to answer I can see that there are no 'Big Questions'


    There's that atheistic hubris we're all so familiar with these days.

    Still, as far as I can tell, science hasn't even come close to proving that there's no God, or no realm of existence that may effetely be called the 'supernatural.' And science will never adequately answer moral questions either, as they fall without its purview.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #16 - September 24, 2011, 08:33 AM

    Quote
    There's that religious hubris we're all so familiar with these days.

    Still, as far as I can tell, religion hasn't even come close to proving that there's a God, or a realm of existence that may effetely be called the 'supernatural.' And religion will never adequately answer moral questions either, as they fall without its purview.

    Could look at it that way too. Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #17 - September 24, 2011, 09:44 AM

    What is this need that religion satisfies? And which religion? All it did was make me apathetic. Who gives a crap about anything when you have an eternity to waste.  Atheism is my anchor. It makes life meaningful.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #18 - September 24, 2011, 09:58 AM

    The best and worst thing about humanity is its will to a social existence. Discuss..
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #19 - September 24, 2011, 10:57 AM

    Still, as far as I can tell, science hasn't even come close to proving that there's no God, or no realm of existence that may effetely be called the 'supernatural.' And science will never adequately answer moral questions either, as they fall without its purview.

    Huh?

    Science cannot prove the existence of the supernatural, by (lack of) definition of supernatural.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #20 - September 24, 2011, 11:05 AM

    The fact that science can't answer certain questions doesn't mean religion can. What a silly dichotomy.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #21 - September 24, 2011, 11:34 AM

    There's that atheistic hubris we're all so familiar with these days.

    Still, as far as I can tell, science hasn't even come close to proving that there's no God, or no realm of existence that may effetely be called the 'supernatural.' And science will never adequately answer moral questions either, as they fall without its purview.

    You seem to be trapped in a paper bag, Zeb. Let me help you fight your way out of it.
    Science doesn't have to 'prove' anything, that's for people who make assertions to do. Science merely seeks to find out how things are put together, how they work and to suggest uses  .  Technology does the rest.
    Everything falls within the purview of Science, every single thing. Given time, all will be revealed, even why we seem to need Unreality.

    Realms of existence, supernatural, moral questions?  Get over yourself, we're just an evolving species of ape, like it or not.  Time you read Dawkins new offering ,
    The Magic of Reality.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #22 - September 24, 2011, 11:41 AM

    Yup, gotta agree with that. I don't mind that it's meaningless. It's still not pointless (in my subjective opinion, obviously).

    Also, who says that getting older means a loss of passion? Grin

    True Oz, we're 'ere because we're 'ere because we're 'ere.  As for passion, some have it and some don't.  I find myself getting more passionate about certain things than ever - take justice for the Palestinians, for instance.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #23 - September 24, 2011, 05:53 PM

    Could look at it that way too. Wink


    You could.

    Of course, there may well be evidence of a God or a state of existence that transcends this one, and religion, or at least devotees of religion, or mystics, may have this evidence. You may simply be unaware of it. And I wouldn't say that morality necessarily falls outside the purview of religion, as ethics is a central part of religion, however adequately or inadequately it answers moral questions.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #24 - September 24, 2011, 05:55 PM

    Huh?

    Science cannot prove the existence of the supernatural, by (lack of) definition of supernatural.


    Which is one of the reasons that I said we 'effetely' call it the 'supernatural.' The term is not an apt one.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #25 - September 24, 2011, 05:56 PM

    The fact that science can't answer certain questions doesn't mean religion can. What a silly dichotomy.


    Was this directed at something I wrote? I don't recall proposing such a dichotomy.

    Apologies if I'm mistaken.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #26 - September 24, 2011, 06:11 PM

    It was a knee-jerk response to Tlaloc's post, but retrospectively I recognize he wasn't implying such a dichotomy either.

     whistling2
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #27 - September 24, 2011, 06:35 PM

    @Sojourner

    Quote
    Science doesn't have to 'prove' anything, that's for people who make assertions to do.


    I don't really take issue with that. But that's not what you stated. You stated that 'there are no big questions,' as if science had already answered every question, which is far from the case.

    Quote
    Everything falls within the purview of Science, every single thing. Given time, all will be revealed, even why we seem to need Unreality.


    Sorry, but that is plainly nonsensical. For a start, logic and mathematics do not fall under its purview, as science must assume those in order to function. Further, morality cannot be defined by science as the founding premises of ethics are necessarily philosophical; prescriptive, while science is concerned solely with the descriptive. Likewise for things like qualia and the experience of music; purely subjective phenomenon that cannot be put under a microscope, being distinct from the physical phenomenon that are associated with them, e.g., light waves or sound waves.

    Quote
    Realms of existence, supernatural, moral questions?  Get over yourself, we're just an evolving species of ape, like it or not.


    Well, even if we are nothing more than an evolving ape species, we will still have moral questions. And indeed our being such an organism does not preclude the existence of other states of being, the supernatural, God, etc.

    Quote
    Time you read Dawkins new offering ,
    The Magic of Reality.


    Ah yes, the infallible Richard Dawkins to whom both cleric and philosopher alike must bend the knee given his profound philosophical acumen. A man who, when challenged to debate even a specious sophist like William Lane Craig, declined knowing that the odds were firmly against him.

    Having said that though, I'm sure he's a fine biologist and if this book is concerned with said subject matter then I may indeed see what it's like. I just don't expect people like Dawkins, or for that matter any member of the intellectually insipid New Atheist movement, to have answers to the 'big questions,' and even less to make them redundant entirely.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #28 - September 24, 2011, 07:12 PM

    ^Great post Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #29 - September 24, 2011, 07:19 PM

    Yes, I think it does matter. The problem with not examining beliefs is that you can be lead into believing things that are detrimental to your quality of life, and the quality of life of the people around you.


    +1

    One of the things I'm grateful for is youtubers like Philhellenes, Theramintrees, therationalizer and evid3nc3 alongside presenting a critique of religion, they presented a life affirming alternative perspective on the 'big questions'...

    Why are we here? - read science books, and watch science documentaries.

    How can I be a good person/live my life ethically? - normally people who ask that questions already have a decent internal moral compass, but looking into psychology and philosophy can help to refine our personal model of morality.

    How can I grow as a person? - Check out self-help psychology theories that have been tested, and check out other hypothesis that resonate with you.  

    How do I know what is true and false - learn the basics of critical thinking, and learn the basics of the scientific methodology.

    One of the things that attracts people to religion IMO is that it presents codified answers to the 'big questions', most people think the only alternative to religion is nihilism.

    I like the idea of promoting humanism alongside critiquing religion, like Carl Sagan did and like evid3nc3 does here...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1xr5c3GJuo
      
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