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Theme Changer

 Topic: Are atheists missing the point?

 (Read 11893 times)
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  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #30 - September 24, 2011, 07:32 PM

    ^Great post Smiley


    Thanks, akhi  grin12
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #31 - September 24, 2011, 07:44 PM

    Everything falls within the purview of Science, every single thing. Given time, all will be revealed, even why we seem to need Unreality.


    IMO, that is an unrealistic assertion. If science has shown us anything then it's how truly puny we are in view of the bigger picture of the cosmos as whole. You said yourself that we are nothing but evolving apes. Also, you seem to be assuming that:
    a) we will evolve more in future
    b) we will have the time to progress/evolve more
    Firstly, evidence suggests that our natural evolution has now halted. Natural selection depends on the death of those individuals who are less able to survive but we now keep bad genetic variations alive. It follows that overall our species will not evolve greater intelligence by the same natural processes that got us to this point.
    Secondly, there are many risks to humanity & currently all our eggs are in one basket- this tiny planet of ours that has somehow managed to provide the right conditions for an intelligent species to evolve. Even with our technological prowess, our species could easily be wiped out unless we diversify & spread out to other planets which, contary to what many scientists say, is no easy feat.
    Check out the many risks to our future:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risks_to_civilization,_humans_and_planet_Earth

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #32 - September 24, 2011, 08:34 PM

    I think it's totally realistic given the history and , yes, we are puny compared to the grand totality but we are who we are and will evolve into whatever direction we are allowed by circumstances both seen and unforeseen.
     There is no evidence whatsoever that evolution has stopped; that's like saying that Gravity has a day off now and then. there's more to evolution than a few brain cells. Do bacteria need brain cells, and yet they are far more important to the maintenance of life than we are.
     Where is your 'evidence' that evolution has halted - all I've seen is wild speculation, none of which stacks up. On the other hand evidence of Human evolution is all around us: HIV AIDS is but one recent driver. Rampant starvation is another: the list is endless and you don't have to tax your powers of observation to see them. Development of our nervous system will go whichever way changing circumstances dictate - we shall have little to do with it probably. Remember, we're looking at 100,000s of years for species devmpt.
    We may even need to become less 'intelligent' in order to stay as successful as we have been (as measured by sequestration of the Earth's resources at the expense of other species).
    It is very popular these days to postulate this impending disaster or that one but the greatest disaster is ourselves - must we wait until we are forced to consume Human flesh because we represent the largest source of edible biomass on the planet?
    And, as you've observed, only a tiny fraction of us could ever leave the place if it were even possible.
    I can't see that we'll be able to do what is necessary and that is to cut the Human popn. by say a half, to be on the safe side: we don't seem to have evolved to throw ourselves into reverse.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #33 - September 24, 2011, 08:41 PM

    I've always wondered what the effects upon human evolution are now that we are consciously aware of our own evolution. We can, to some extent, choose how we want to evolve.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #34 - September 24, 2011, 08:50 PM

    @Sojourner

    I don't really take issue with that. But that's not what you stated. You stated that 'there are no big questions,' as if science had already answered every question, which is far from the case.

    Sorry, but that is plainly nonsensical. For a start, logic and mathematics do not fall under its purview, as science must assume those in order to function. Further, morality cannot be defined by science as the founding premises of ethics are necessarily philosophical; prescriptive, while science is concerned solely with the descriptive. Likewise for things like qualia and the experience of music; purely subjective phenomenon that cannot be put under a microscope, being distinct from the physical phenomenon that are associated with them, e.g., light waves or sound waves.

    I agree with most of that. However, I think the experience of music is one thing that is likely to come under science at some point. An analogy would be the experience of maternal affection just after birth. We now know that it's largely a result of oxytocin levels in the blood.

    Quote
    Well, even if we are nothing more than an evolving ape species, we will still have moral questions. And indeed our being such an organism does not preclude the existence of other states of being, the supernatural, God, etc.

    IMO, the relevant point here is that although it does not preclude such states, in the absence of verifiable evidence for them there is no obvious reason to assume they exist.

    Quote
    Ah yes, the infallible Richard Dawkins to whom both cleric and philosopher alike must bend the knee given his profound philosophical acumen. A man who, when challenged to debate even a specious sophist like William Lane Craig, declined knowing that the odds were firmly against him.

    Without attempting to imply that Dawkins is perfect, one of the problems with live debates is that making spurious assertions that sound good is easy, but demonstrating that they are spurious can take a lot longer. Live debate is often more of a bread and circuses thing, rather than a real attempt to deal with the issues.

    This is why creationists do so well in front of audiences that are primed to accept their world view. There is limited time for response and the spurious sound bites are what the audience wants.

    Now, like a lot of people on this site, Dawkins is perfectly capable of demonstrating that creationist assertions are bollocks, providing that the audience is prepared to put in the time and effort to understand the arguments. He chooses not to engage, not because of a lack of ability on his part, but because the format is stacked against dealing with the issues comprehensively. Then there is the additional factor that he thinks the creationist arguments should not be dignified by wasting time on them, since they are fundamentally dishonest anyway. 

    Quote
    Though, I'm sure he's a fine biologist and if this book is concerned with said subject matter then I may indeed see what it's like. I just don't expect people like Dawkins, or for that matter any member of the intellectually insipid New Atheist movement, to have answers to the 'big questions,' and even less to make them redundant entirely.

    I realise this may come as shock to some, but IMO most religious thought and argument (at least that I have encountered) is also intellectually insipid.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #35 - September 24, 2011, 09:59 PM

    There is no evidence whatsoever that evolution has stopped; that's like saying that Gravity has a day off now and then. there's more to evolution than a few brain cells. Do bacteria need brain cells, and yet they are far more important to the maintenance of life than we are.
     Where is your 'evidence' that evolution has halted - all I've seen is wild speculation, none of which stacks up. On the other hand evidence of Human evolution is all around us: HIV AIDS is but one recent driver. Rampant starvation is another: the list is endless and you don't have to tax your powers of observation to see them. Development of our nervous system will go whichever way changing circumstances dictate - we shall have little to do with it probably. Remember, we're looking at 100,000s of years for species devmpt.
     


    Your point is a valid one. I accept that halted was not the best choice of words as evolution does not stop but I think it's correct to say it's slowed as natural selection & competition for resources was one of the main driving forces in the past which in much of the modern world has diminished.
    Of course, there are other factors that may well play their part now & in the future like sexual selection, artificial/unnatural selection of preffered traits via the increased use of new genetic technology & the ones you mentioned.

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #36 - September 24, 2011, 10:08 PM

    @Osmanthus

    Quote
    I agree with most of that. However, I think the experience of music is one thing that is likely to come under science at some point. An analogy would be the experience of maternal affection just after birth. We now know that it's largely a result of oxytocin levels in the blood.


    Yes, but as I wrote:

    Quote
    things like qualia and the experience of music; purely subjective phenomenon that cannot be put under a microscope, being distinct from the physical phenomenon that are associated with them


    The increased levels of oxytocin are distinct from the subjective experience that a person feels. It's entirely conceivable that such an experience may exist without the presence of such a hormone. E.g., it could be simulated by electronically stimulating certain parts of the brain, which subsequently gives the affected individual that particular sensation. When one understands this, it becomes clear that experience itself and the related neurological, physiological, endocrinological occurrences are distinct phenomena.

    Quote
    IMO, the relevant point here is that although it does not preclude such states, in the absence of verifiable evidence for them there is no obvious reason to assume they exist.


    Sojourner appeared to be making quite a positive and unequivocal statement to the tune of 'evolving apes are all we are,' ("Realms of existence, supernatural, moral questions?  Get over yourself, we're just an evolving species of ape, like it or not."). It at least seems that he's decided that such things are indeed fiction.

    Quote
    Without attempting to imply that Dawkins is perfect, one of the problems with live debates is that making spurious assertions that sound good is easy, but demonstrating that they are spurious can take a lot longer. Live debate is often more of a bread and circuses thing, rather than a real attempt to deal with the issues.


    Yes, that's true. But Dawkins has been in a number of live debates before, so why won't he debate this particular individual?

    Quote
    Now, like a lot of people on this site, Dawkins is perfectly capable of demonstrating that creationist assertions are bollocks, providing that the audience is prepared to put in the time and effort to understand the arguments. He chooses not to engage, not because of a lack of ability on his part, but because the format is stacked against dealing with the issues comprehensively. Then there is the additional factor that he thinks the creationist arguments should not be dignified by wasting time on them, since they are fundamentally dishonest anyway.


    To be honest, I'm really not sure that Dawkins has the philosophical ability to tackle the more sophisticated arguments for religion. And again, he's engaged religionists before, so this seems like an arbitrary exception on his part. And the arguments that someone like Craig uses are not crass 'creationist' arguments, not entirely anyway. Some of them are quite sophisticated, even if they are flawed, and in any case I don't think the intellectual leaders of atheism should be shrinking from the challenge of debunking them. Besides, if the arguments really are spurious, then they won't stand up to scrutiny, and so it would be pretty easy to show the creationists that they're wrong.

    Quote
    I realise this may come as shock to some, but IMO most religious thought and argument (at least that I have encountered) is also intellectually insipid.


    I agree.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #37 - September 24, 2011, 10:14 PM

    The increased levels of oxytocin are distinct from the subjective experience that a person feels. It's entirely conceivable that such an experience may exist without the presence of such a hormone. E.g., it could be simulated by electronically stimulating certain parts of the brain, which subsequently gives the affected individual that particular sensation. When one understands this, it becomes clear that experience itself and the related neurological, physiological, endocrinological occurrences are distinct phenomena.

    In that case you would simply be replacing one sort of stimulus with another. It wouldn't change the fact that stimulation of the relevant brains cells is what causes the sensation in question. IOW, although it may appear on the surface to be something that transcends the physical, on deeper examination there is no a priori reason to assume that. Ergo, it is something that is likely to come under science at some point.

    Quote
    Yes, that's true. But Dawkins has been in a number of live debates before, so why won't he debate this particular individual?

    Dunno.

    Quote
    To be honest, I'm really not sure that Dawkins has the philosophical ability to tackle the more sophisticated arguments for religion. And again, he's engaged religionists before, so this seems like an arbitrary exception on his part. And the arguments that someone like Craig uses are not crass 'creationist' arguments, not entirely anyway. Some of them are quite sophisticated, even if they are flawed, and in any case I don't think the intellectual leaders of atheism should be shrinking from the challenge of debunking them. Besides, if the arguments really are spurious, then they won't stand up to scrutiny, and so it would be pretty easy to show the creationists that they're wrong.

    Have you ever really tried to do this with creationists? It's not nearly as easy as you might think. They are remarkably impervious to sensible arguments.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #38 - September 24, 2011, 10:30 PM

    Quote
    In that case you would simply be replacing one sort of stimulus with another. It wouldn't change the fact that stimulation of the relevant brains cells is what causes the sensation in question. IOW, although it may appear on the surface to be something that transcends the physical, on deeper examination there is no a priori reason to assume that. Ergo, it is something that is likely to come under science at some point.


    I'm not really sure how it would be possible to scientifically examine a person's subjective experience, and there's no question that on an a priori and logical basis, the sensation is distinct from the physiological cause. This is not really a controversial point logically or philosophically. As to whether science will ever be able to examine these things, maybe such a day will come, and maybe it won't. Until it does I guess this will remain an open question.

    Quote
    Have you ever really tried to do this with creationists? It's not nearly as easy as you might think. They are remarkably impervious to sensible arguments.


    Not all religionists are closed-minded creationists. And I've had my share of exchanges with such people, but these days I don't much care about arguing people out of their beliefs.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #39 - September 25, 2011, 12:54 AM

    I agree with most of that. However, I think the experience of music is one thing that is likely to come under science at some point. An analogy would be the experience of maternal affection just after birth.


    The neuropsychology of music is certainly not fleshed out - not even remotely close - but there's stuff we do know.

    Music and speech, as other auditory input, are thought to be processed in terms of pitch, rhythm and timbre at structural level (subcortically and partially cortically), while functional-level processing is essentially semantic and syntactic (and is entirely cortical, as far as we know). Congenital amusia (an inability to meaningfully perceive music) has been thought a form of pitch processing deficit, whereas acquired amusia (usually occurring after stroke) is rather more complex, depending on what areas of the brain have been lesioned (i.e. sites along neurochemical pathways or areas of neural substrate that previously processed specific aspects).

    As most people will be more interested in higher-level aspects of musical processing, two diagrams for your delectation:

    1. Core brain regions associated with musical activity.

    Source: Levitin, D. J. and Tirovolas, A. K. (2009), Recent advances in the cognitive neuroscience of music, DOI: 10.1111/j.1749-6632.2009.04417.x

    2. Post-stroke lesions and correlated deficiencies, in reactions to novel and familiar music and perception of emotional content. Diagram modified to label anatomical areas.

    Source: Stewart, L. et al (2006), Music and the brain: disorders of musical listening, DOI: 10.1093/brain/awl171

    Apologies if you have to break out the magnifying glass to read the diagrams - a combination of tinypic and maximum picture sizes saw to that..
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #40 - September 25, 2011, 02:14 AM

    In that case you would simply be replacing one sort of stimulus with another. It wouldn't change the fact that stimulation of the relevant brains cells is what causes the sensation in question. IOW, although it may appear on the surface to be something that transcends the physical, on deeper examination there is no a priori reason to assume that. Ergo, it is something that is likely to come under science at some point.



    I made this post elsewhere but I think it can be repeated here:

    For instance, let us consider the colour red. The physical theory states that red is an electromagnetic wave of a certain wavelength and that the light enters the retina, at which point, an electro-chemical signal is sent from the back of the eye to the brain along a neuron cell. The brain then decodes the image and presents it for us, in our immediate consciousness, with all the vibrancy and quality of a colour.
    Now, there is a famous thought experiment about this very example. Imagine a person that has always lived within a certain room. In this room, she has never seen the colour red, never had the sensation of the quality of red. However, the above physical facts about electromagnetic waves, wavelengths, neurons and brain activity are all known by her in full. She knows absolutely everything about the colour red that can be known through the cutting edge of physical knowledge. However, if we were to take her outside of the room and she was to actually see the colour red for the first ever time - do you think she gains additional knowledge?
    I would contend that she dos. I would contend that there is a further fact in the actual experiencing of the colour red that cannot be known through the physical facts. i would contend that while this person knew everything about the physical facts, she could not have known the sensation of red without actually experiencing it.
    Thus, one can conclude that even having complete knowledge of the physical workings of the brain is incomplete if one wants to know what an actual experience feels like.




    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #41 - September 25, 2011, 02:24 AM

    ^ Very well said. Afro

    I was going to say the same thing about musical experiences. We might be able to explain them scientifically, but the knowledge we gain from that is different from the knowledge we gain from experiencing music first-hand, and every person experiences music differently, and I would argue that our experience with everything is different from person to person based on our personal past experiences with said thing.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #42 - September 25, 2011, 02:58 AM

    Of course I see the point, but it still doesn't get around anything. There is currently no particular reason to think that the experience is never going to be quantifiable in physical terms. You are assuming that consciousness and perception must somehow transcend the purely physical. You have nothing to support this assumption. You may be right, but you may not. At the moment we simply don't know.


    Given the advances we have made in understanding brain function and how purely chemical factors affect perception, who knows where the limits are?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #43 - September 25, 2011, 04:36 AM

    If there is a point, I certainly didn't find it in this discussion.  Huh?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #44 - September 25, 2011, 05:11 AM

    ...I think it's correct to say it's slowed as natural selection & competition for resources was one of the main driving forces in the past which in much of the modern world has diminished.


    I disagree as we are constantly fighting for resources, more so as the world population increases. Wealth is the new resource that opens the door to others (food, shelter, comfort and often a 'better' sexual partner). Even in first world countries like UK wealth provides a better level of living which increases health and longevity. Lack of stress, physical health etc most likely lead to stronger genetic material (egg/sperm) and healthier offspring. The wealthy are a minority who are greatly advantaged. One could argue that the 'cream' of society, those who are genetically at an advantage in today's world, will possess the ability to acquire the resources, i.e. get rich.

    Next we have the environment- pollution etc. All animals and plants will be evolving to adapt.

    Then we have genetic mutations which are disadvantageous- due to humans having 'intelligence', humans with errors may pass on the 'bad' genes who in nature would have perished (like a short sighted person- an animal with bad sight will die young most likely!). If the bad genes are bad enough they will kill, if they don't kill and are passed on then the likelihod is the badness will accumulate over time and eventually kill the person, or will get diluted and disappear. I'm not sure about this though, I only did genetics at A level so this is just guessing.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #45 - September 25, 2011, 05:24 AM

    Of course I see the point, but it still doesn't get around anything. There is currently no particular reason to think that the experience is never going to be quantifiable in physical terms. You are assuming that consciousness and perception must somehow transcend the purely physical. You have nothing to support this assumption. You may be right, but you may not. At the moment we simply don't know.


    Given the advances we have made in understanding brain function and how purely chemical factors affect perception, who knows where the limits are?


    If we are to make artificial consciousness then all this type of argument will be put in the rubbish bin.

    If we accept we have evolved then There is nothing transcendental about experience

    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #46 - September 26, 2011, 09:13 PM

    @ Saffire
    I disagree


    Evolution is complex. Much more complex than I had thought. I need to read more when time permits but there are arguments that suppport my stance & there are those that also support yours but most definitely my initial statement that it has halted was definitely naive & incorrect.
    Here- check this out:
    http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2009/02/12/2489602.htm

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #47 - September 26, 2011, 10:04 PM

    The wealthy are a minority who are greatly advantaged. One could argue that the 'cream' of society, those who are genetically at an advantage in today's world, will possess the ability to acquire the resources, i.e. get rich.


    The wealthy are advantaged? In what way? Yeh, sure they have the resources to splash out on education and better this and that but it doesn't make them genetically superior to another human which comes to the next point. Being born or coming into wealth is like a lottery, some get lucky and stumble on it, sure they can get stuff much easier but it doesn't make them genetically superior in anyway, all humans have potential, with the correct resources ofcourse, but wealth doesn't have to be THE limiting factor for this.

    Unless you mean 'genetically at an advantage' metaphorically, then yeah, sure they do have an ability to aqcuire wealth more successfully because they have the necessary resources to do so unlike others who aren't born or hit onto vast wealth.

    07:54 <harakaat>: you must be jema
    07:54 <harakaat>: considering how annoying you are
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #48 - October 03, 2011, 02:07 AM

    Fombles. not all people possess the ability to acquire wealth. It takes a certain type of person- you need the right skills. There are super intelligent people (consultants) who never get rich, then there are uneducated people who become multi millionnaires. In the UK many people have the same resources as those who get rich. When I made that statement I didn't mean those born into wealth, rather those who acquire it- like those people on Dragon's Den. Of course the ability to make money is an advantage, and one could say it's a genetic advantage in many cases (barring inheritence although that's a moot point since the inheritence implies the success gene is within the family at least!). Like intelligence is an advantage today, the qualities that make one rich are advantageous and there are specific traits!

    Where in the past the best hunter or the best cultivator of land would be at an advatage, in today's world the wealthy have the advantage. What is the advantage? Well, the best cultivator/hunter will get more and better food, will be able to trade the food for more comfortable and safe accommodation- just like what we now use money for. Those with more wealth will have the advantages- better education, access to a part of society not open to all, better food, less stress

    Side note: I've always been addicted to computer games and never cared for the real world/money. However, since meeting my bf and being with him I have been so influenced by the money game! It's like a game, but real life. It's super fun trying to get to the next level after defeating some evil boss! Haha it's so awesome, you should try it :p
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #49 - October 03, 2011, 03:10 AM

    May you and your boyfriend someday end up like the Romanovs.

    fuck you
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #50 - October 03, 2011, 03:13 AM

    Grin
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #51 - October 03, 2011, 03:30 AM

    May you and your boyfriend someday end up like the Romanovs.


    Who are the romanovs?

    Seriously though- I was so addicted to the Sims at one point in my life- I was so depressed and lost myself in the game. When I got away from the game I got so pissed of that I couldn't do money cheat and get lots of money (being broke super sucks esp. when you're depressed!). Then I would be depressed that I couldn't build/decorate irl like in the sims. I wish real life could be like game life.

    My goal is only to enjoy life. I used to not care about money but I suddenly realised that it can be used to buy stuff! Wooohooo. I have a list:

    1. Trampoline
    2. Dance dance revolution arcade game
    3. Time crisis on PS3 (this is extravagent since I will have to buy 2 for 2 guncons!)
    4. Guitar/band hero with all the instruments
    5. A super awesome grandfather clock ( I love clocks!)
    6. Time and money to build a super super awesome dolls house from scratch with real tiles, wall paper, furnishings. plumbing etc
    7. I want chickens!
    8. I really really want a few cows, like the highland cows with the long hair- SO CUTE!

    Basically I want to live on a farm in the middle of nowhere where I can potter around doing things like gardening, making things, taking care of my animals, etc. I really want to be able to do this in UK, which is super expensive. However, I'm safe since I have a cheap back-up plan- If I fail then I'll at least make sure I have enough money to go to india where I will get a job teaching english in a school and live in the exact same way for cheap (minus the trampouline and electronics but they're not really deal breakers!)
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #52 - October 03, 2011, 03:39 AM

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanovs

    That's all well and good. Got no problem with someone wanting money and the good life it can buy. Most of us want that, myself included. It's the arrogance and Social Darwinist attitude you link to it I object to. There is nothing inherently superior in wealthy people that allows them to become wealthy, and creation of wealth is not, in and of itself, a social good and, to the contrary can create social harm.

    fuck you
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #53 - October 03, 2011, 06:52 AM

    Forget the individual, the important question is "Is 'belief' good for society?"

    Looking around the world I conclude it is detrimental.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #54 - October 03, 2011, 03:38 PM

    Of course I see the point, but it still doesn't get around anything. There is currently no particular reason to think that the experience is never going to be quantifiable in physical terms. You are assuming that consciousness and perception must somehow transcend the purely physical. You have nothing to support this assumption. You may be right, but you may not. At the moment we simply don't know.



    I made this post elsewhere but it can be repeated here:

    I think the first problem with materialism is that nobody has any idea what matter really is. It is difficult to have a worldview based on a substance that nobody can define.
    For instance, alot of materialists like to say that matter is whatever physics says matter is. However, the physical understanding of what matter is, is always changing. After all, it used to be assumed that matter is solid bits of mass that have no internal reality but are meaninglessly drifting through space being pulled and pushed around by other solid bits of mass.
    However, we now know that this Newtonian understanding of matter is false. There are physical particles (such as neutrinos) that can pass through all other matter without disturbing it. There are physical particles (such as photons) that have no mass.
    This of course, then raises the question, if the understanding of matter can change to incorporate masslessness and ability to pass through walls, if it can also incorporate quantum entanglement, the ability for particles to be in two places at once and so on, then why should we stop there and say that is true materialism? Why can't matter, tomorrow, be found to incorporate thoughts and feelings too (just as an example)? It makes no sense to call oneself a materialist because it is trying to take on a metaphysical position (and all worldviews are metaphysical) by means of self-admitted inadequate knowledge.
    Other materialists, knowing this problem, perhaps can then take a different viewpoint, and instead say that materialism is the worldview that only matter exists but not on our current understanding of matter but on whatever a final physics will tell us. This is a difficult position to uphold because it seems unscientific to think that one day physics will be completed - after all, every physical theory has to be falsifiable and continually tested, there is no such thing as completion and secondly, because it seems as if there is this unhealthy faith in scientists 1000 years from now (or whenever) knowing the truth. That is a leap of faith as big as any.

    Therefore, while you may have a point that somewhere in the future our understanding of the "physical" may include the experiential, this is a vacuous term that is basically a catch-all for whatever we deem to really exist.
    Let us try and consider reality beyond what scientists give us permission to, after all, their terms (such as "physical") are far too malleable to have any sort of useful meaning anyway.
    Besides which, it really is a stretch of the imagination to try and understand what it even means to quantify a quality. Are you proposing that we will be able to give numerical values to describe the vividness of a sharp red? Everything about red has already been quantified down to its quantum mechanical nature as a photon. However, none of that still explains why red is not just a sensory input but an experience.
    To put this in the modern philosophy of mind parlance, why is is that these functions of the brain don't just happen in the dark? Why do I experience red when I could just as easily process the information without the experience? The information processing cannot ever fully account for the experience because the experience is a completely different phenomenon.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #55 - October 03, 2011, 09:17 PM

    No, it is not a completely different phenomenon. It is the direct result of the information processing. You're saying that sodium chloride is completely different from the process of combining sodium and chlorine (to use a basic analogy). I'm saying you shouldn't be at all surprised if you see salt after combining sodium and chlorine. It's all part of the same process.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #56 - October 03, 2011, 09:43 PM

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanovs

    ...It's the arrogance and Social Darwinist attitude you link to it I object to. There is nothing inherently superior in wealthy people that allows them to become wealthy, and creation of wealth is not, in and of itself, a social good and, to the contrary can create social harm.


    once again you have misunderstood me. As mentioned previously, I don't have any of these fancy ideas- the things I say are often off the top of my head and are apt to change depending on the day! What I mean about wealth and people becoming wealthy being an advantage is something I do stand by though- darwinism is NOT about social good, nor is evolution- it is merely the best way for gene survival (of the individual). No matter what your view on wealth, there's no denying that it is an advantage since it's the thing most people naturally crave. The quest for more than what one needs is an archaic one and is exhibited in many many animals, not just humans. Ergo, the better evolved (in the respect of gaining wealth) will have an advantage over those who don't care for money, or can't achieve wealth, just like birds or squirrels who gather the most nuts (or whatever). Same for beauty being an advantage, as well as intelligence. I don't know what planet you're living on to not acknowledge that wealth is an advantage  wacko
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #57 - October 03, 2011, 11:09 PM

    Wealth is an advantage until it's not



    And I'm back to thinking you're a troll-- way too many inconsistencies with you and you just don't add up-- however, you're the best troll this forum has ever seen if I'm right.

    fuck you
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #58 - October 04, 2011, 09:19 AM

    And I'm back to thinking you're a troll


    How did you come to that conclusion?
  • Re: Are atheists missing the point?
     Reply #59 - October 16, 2011, 06:26 AM

    Wealth is an advantage until it's not

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    And I'm back to thinking you're a troll-- way too many inconsistencies with you and you just don't add up-- however, you're the best troll this forum has ever seen if I'm right.


    First- when wealth itself ceases to be an advantage, the qualities that allow the individual to gain wealth still provide advantages. Wealth is only a means of measuring commodity, and no matter what happens there will always be some form of 'wealth'. Even in poverty you have less poor, in starvation the less starved, etc.

    Second, I'm a troll? I'm starting to see a pattern emerge- you seem to jump to the troll hypothesis when you're stumped. It's a lame comeback. You think I'm a troll? *shrug* I couldn't care less. I think you're in a position of less wealth and resent any person who has more than you. Incapable of achieving wealth yourself (for whatever reason) you decide that it's easier to construct half baked ideologies to criticise and condemn wealth and the wealthy.

    Maybe I'm wrong but who cares.
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