how many of you left islam because of eternal hell

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- Azdaha ExMuslim
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how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
OP - October 12, 2011, 01:36 PM

In many ex-muslims' story i find Eternal Hell to be on the top of list among reasons for leaving islam (mine too)

just want to know , how many of you rate eternal hell 10/10 among your reasons for leaving islam ?

Disbelief doesn't justify getting tortured in eternal hell
- Shahid Raza
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #1 - October 12, 2011, 03:03 PM

I do. There are many other reasons of course, but the stupidity of burning disbelievers in hell ranks quite highly.

.
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #2 - October 12, 2011, 03:14 PM

the idea of being eternally barbecued daily is a perverse sadistic patrick bateman fantasy and entirely contradicts the concept of a loving , benevolent, caring, merciful, forgiving god
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #3 - October 12, 2011, 04:10 PM

While I did find the punishment harsh I did not leave Islam because of the concept of eternal hell however nonsensical it seems now. Actually it was the realisation that I believed sincere, good people from all faiths who are trying to reach god will be burned for the fact that they did not embrace Islam, which led to my skepticism of faith.

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- Naerys
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #4 - October 12, 2011, 04:14 PM

Nah, hell had nothing to do with it.

He's no friend to the friendless
And he's the mother of grief
There's only sorrow for tomorrow
Surely life is too brief
- iSoK
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #5 - October 12, 2011, 07:57 PM

What’s so strange about hell, that it is on top of your list?

Within life we do a lot of things, for much of it we are responsible.
Every day we wake up we are in touch with all that exists and as an individual we influence
all that exists or comes into existence.

Yelling at your mother will cause her pain, stepping on an ant on purpose will cause pain.
Now, stepping on an ant or yelling at your mother doesn’t seem to be a big deal.
But what does that individual you inflict actually feel? Probably far more than you think.
To take this into consideration, one should actually reflect on how high the total sum of the
sufferings he has caused will actually be during his lifetime.

Hell is a part of paying back the price of the sum of all the suffering you’ve caused.
Every moment of it you’ll experience every tear, every grim, every depression that you have caused
during your life time. And when the limits of suffering are lifted in the other realm, every second of
that state of being will feel like an eternity.
I'd rather be burned in a physical reality with flames than to have experience that..........

It really isn’t strange that with the fall of religion in the West, the industrial revolution kicked in.
Man simply needed material sources to fulfill his desires because God vanished and man was desperate
for happiness, even though that act caused a massive ecological disaster till this day.
Man is still desperate and in a state of misery.
For many life is meaningless and is seen as the ‘grey days’, the only comfort they have is their family or friends to have a break from the harsh reality.
Belief in God is fundamental for human happiness and for safeguarding the environment, history stands as a clear light in that.
There are people responsible for this and they are going to pay the price for the relative freedom
they’ve enjoyed.
The following verses should be taken into consideration:

(2:11-13) - And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."
Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not.
And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed," they say, "Should we believe as the foolish have believed?"
Unquestionably, it is they who are the foolish, but they know [it] not.

If God would only apply Justice to our Judgement, then every drop of water you’ve wasted, every extra crumb
of bread you ate without feeding the poor, every ant you killed, every wrong gaze you’ve set on other’s will be paid back.
In case of Perfect Justice we would experience all that we have caused.
That would mean that we will all end up in Hell eventually or atleast experience it for a very long time.

But the Qur’an and Hadith make it clear that Mercy precedes Wrath.

(7:157) 'I afflict whomsoever I wish with My Punishment. As for My mercy, it encompasses everything.

When God decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: My Mercy prevails over my Wrath.

That is just one perspective of looking at Hell, there are more.

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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #6 - October 12, 2011, 08:56 PM

The thing about eternal suffering is that our minds cannot properly contemplate eternity. It means LITERALLY forever. It means that for the simple crime of not believing in Muhammad’s spiritual viewpoint you will burn forever. At some point you will have suffered longer than the combined lifetimes of every single living thing that ever existed. And yet the suffering would still continue and never end.

And to do so for thought crimes (kufrdom, apostasy, etc) makes Islamic Hell the worst sort of political prison ever.
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #7 - October 13, 2011, 05:51 AM

Quote from: iSoK on October 12, 2011, 07:57 PM
What’s so strange about hell, that it is on top of your list?

The most strange thing is "infinite punishment for finite sins"

Quote from: iSoK on October 12, 2011, 07:57 PM
Within life we do a lot of things, for much of it we are responsible.
Every day we wake up we are in touch with all that exists and as an individual we influence
all that exists or comes into existence.

Yelling at your mother will cause her pain, stepping on an ant on purpose will cause pain.
Now, stepping on an ant or yelling at your mother doesn’t seem to be a big deal.
But what does that individual you inflict actually feel? Probably far more than you think.
To take this into consideration, one should actually reflect on how high the total sum of the
sufferings he has caused will actually be during his lifetime.
Hell is a part of paying back the price of the sum of all the suffering you’ve caused.

what suffering am I causing to God by not believing in him ? do you think god feels pain when someone doesn't believes in him ?

Quote from: iSoK on October 12, 2011, 07:57 PM
If God would only apply Justice to our Judgement, then every drop of water you’ve wasted, every extra crumb
of bread you ate without feeding the poor, every ant you killed, every wrong gaze you’ve set on other’s will be paid back.
In case of Perfect Justice we would experience all that we have caused.
That would mean that we will all end up in Hell eventually or atleast experience it for a very long time.

But the Qur’an and Hadith make it clear that Mercy precedes Wrath.

(7:157) 'I afflict whomsoever I wish with My Punishment. As for My mercy, it encompasses everything.

When God decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: My Mercy prevails over my Wrath.

That is just one perspective of looking at Hell, there are more.

Now let me explain my problem with hell in detail

Quran clearly states that Allah can forgive any sin except shirk

Any means any.

There are 10s of verses that speaks only about ^disbelievers^ going to hell. No matter what good they performed in this world. Lets take an example of Bill Gates , he gave billions in charity (i don't know of any Muslim who did this) ....but he is skeptic about existence of god.....after death , his all good deeds will be in vain just because he didn't believe in god , allah , muhammad etc and he will be tortured till the day of judgement and on the day of judgement he will be thrown into the hell fire.

Now on the other hand , a muslim (believer) is a rapist , a mass murderer , a robber and a thief ...... after doing all this bull shit, he has a chance to repent .... now if he seriously repents , allah the most merciful may forgive his sins .....but what about those non muslims (kaafirs) to whom this man caused a loss ....... they will be tortured eternally in hell fire just for one reason ....that they didnt believe in god , allah , muhammad , quran ..........and that guy who did all the bullshit can enjoy in heaven with 72 virgins .......... totalllyyy sick

"If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him." Quran 4:93

just look at the above verse....it says if he kills a believer then his recompense is hell .....but if he kills a non believer, he may be forgiven ......

Forgive me for bad english .... english is not my first language..............I can write much more about the sick justice of god and concept of hell .... but have to do some work ....

Disbelief doesn't justify getting tortured in eternal hell
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #8 - October 13, 2011, 09:43 AM

Quote from: iSoK on October 12, 2011, 07:57 PM
What’s so strange about hell, that it is on top of your list?

What's not strange about a perfectly wise and compassionate divine being inflicting unending torture on the limited and flawed creatures he created knowing they would not live up to the expectations he set for them?

Quote from: iSoK on October 12, 2011, 07:57 PM
Yelling at your mother will cause her pain, stepping on an ant on purpose will cause pain.
Now, stepping on an ant or yelling at your mother doesn’t seem to be a big deal.
But what does that individual you inflict actually feel? Probably far more than you think... Hell is a part of paying back the price of the sum of all the suffering you’ve caused. Every moment of it you’ll experience every tear, every grim, every depression that you have caused
during your life time. And when the limits of suffering are lifted in the other realm, every second of
that state of being will feel like an eternity.

The pain we inflict on our mother, ants, etc... is:

1. Finite.

2. Immeasurably less that having one's skin repeatedly roasted off - for eternity.

3. In many cases unintentional.

4. Even when intentional, human beings are very flawed and limited creatures - influenced by factors beyond their control, (i.e. biology, environment, perspective, context, emotions etc…) and so our culpability is limited - unlike God who is perfect. His actions are premeditated and not influenced by flaws, imperfections or factors beyond his control.

I'll ignore the fact that the Qur'an talks about disbelief and not about stepping on ants. Even if Hell was payback for the pain we cause - there is no comparison between the finite pain an imperfect and limited creation causes others (either unintentionally/or intentionally) and the infinite and agonising torture that a perfect all-knowing God will inflict as part of his premeditated plan.

You know that, of course. I can see you're struggling to reconcile Hell.

I used similar arguments 10 years ago. I hope you have better luck than I did in swallowing them.

Quote from: iSoK on October 12, 2011, 07:57 PM
Belief in God is fundamental for human happiness and for safeguarding the environment, history stands as a clear light in that.

Totally irrelevant to the topic - even if it were true.
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #9 - October 13, 2011, 10:09 AM

nice points Hassan

Disbelief doesn't justify getting tortured in eternal hell
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #10 - October 13, 2011, 05:14 PM

Lol this reminds me of something I heard about in medieval Christianity. If you paid the church some money you can get like 200 years off of burning in hell for all eternity. The more you paid the more years you got off.

I'm not ex-Muslim, but Christianity loves preaching its fair share of hell burning too. Ironically enough, the concept of heaven made even less sense to me than hell, which lead me to be agnostic.

***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #11 - October 13, 2011, 06:07 PM

The greatest achievement of Islam and Christianity is to blind billions of reasonable human beings to the preposterous and irreconcilable contradiction between eternal torture and a Merciful God.

I still cannot believe that I used to try to justify it - as iSoK does here.
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #12 - October 13, 2011, 09:07 PM

My personal view of conscious disbelief, that it is worse than murder.
One cannot be blinded by sentimental feelings and thinking that life is sacred while at the same time
seeing a human being as nothing more than colliding atoms held together by physical laws.
That is a contradiction that cannot be solved.

When Trotsky was asked about the millions of casualties during the Russian Revolution he replied in the sense of:
‘A high number, but a low price to pay for the result.’

I’m not saying that agnosticism or atheism will always fall intro traps like that, but the possibility is there.
Communism in China and Russia are examples of that.

The three major points of Hell, which I personally see are.

1. Recompensation in the form of Punishment.
2. Fear to improve morality.
3. Full submission to God.

Earlier on I made the first point clear.
I cannot say who will be shown Mercy and who will be shown Wrath, but I can say that with only Justice all of us will share the same place.
None of us can know the inner reality of the heart, except God.
There are believers among non-believers and there are non-believers among believers.
But to say that none of us are accountable for our actions is wrong, many of us can reflect.
And there are certainly people who have reflected on reality and might have even realized that
they have taken the wrong turn, but despite that they did not care out of ease about the influence of that path on others.

The second point of Hell is obvious; there are many men that have turned their side to the wrong path out of fear. History is of full of such examples.
In Nepal you can basically sleep along the sideway with a couple of thousands of dollars sticking out of your wallet without worrying about theft, the people there believe in Karma.
You can never achieve this with a society based on consumerism.

As for the third point and probably the most important point is full submission to God.
One should rather be a slave of the Real instead of a slave of the unreal.
That is the highest form of happiness, the main objective for every human being.
I’ve certainly heard of a prostitute, a billionaire, a ruler or even a common man being depressed/having committed suicide
but I’ve never heard of a monk doing that without an obvious medical condition.
Since the monk is not a slave of his feelings, passions, attitudes and desires instead he is a slave of the Divine and the result of that is unquestionable.
He is at peace with himself, he is at peace with God and his environment is at peace with him.
The monk has submitted and has faith in God’s Mercy and Justice.

As I’ve mentioned earlier, the fall of religion meant the start of the industrial revolution.
The sign post of modern ‘civillization’ with its infinite new god’s like ‘Democracy’, ‘Communism’, ‘Capitalism’ and ‘Scientism’.
Our so called ‘enlightened’ civilization would solve the problems of the world.
Rather, it has destroyed the world beyond reckoning.
If the ancients could see us, they would find us disgusting and a people that are indulged in barbarity.

There’s a segment in the Vishnu Purana and it’s about the modern world.

‘Piety will diminish daily, until the world will be corrupted. In those days it will be wealth that confers distinction.
Passion will be the sole reason for union of the two sexes. Lies will be the only method of success in business.
Women will be the objects of merely sensual gratification. The earth will be valued only for its mineral treasures.
Dishonesty will be the universal means of subsistence.
A simple ablution will be regarded as sufficient purification.’

The widespread depression among the common people of a meaningless life, the barbaric exploitation and sheer destruction of nature, the enormous institutions who cause every few decades a massive economic depression, the millions and millions of casualties for the satisfaction of ideologies, the unbalanced distribution of wealth with millions of dying of poverty are a few examples of our modern civilization. And all of this come forth from one cause.

To disbelief is a way of providing support for that collective vision of mankind.
One shall be questioned for providing that support.

(2:12) - Verily, they, (only) they, are surely the corruptors, but they are not aware.

Our context as you’ve rightly mentioned does have a certain influence and we shall see how much it has influenced our decisions and what it’s influence will be on our responsibility. But I’m afraid that most of us are there where we wish to be.

The Noble Qur'an - Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #13 - October 13, 2011, 09:18 PM

So your conscious disbelief of Zeus is worse than murder? If, in the unlikely event that there is a creator deity, he/she/it is an uncaring creator that started the universe and left it to run as a science experiment. Just because communism doesn't implicitly believe in a god, it still follows the same pattern of control as a religion. Blind adherance to the rules. No criticism of "the glorious leader" on pain of death, intangible promises of happiness in the future in exchange for misery now, and so on and so on.

I've been driven mad trying to prove my sanity
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #14 - October 13, 2011, 09:33 PM

Quote from: Mr Sanity on October 13, 2011, 09:18 PM
So your conscious disbelief of Zeus is worse than murder? If, in the unlikely event that there is a creator deity, he/she/it is an uncaring creator that started the universe and left it to run as a science experiment. Just because communism doesn't implicitly believe in a god, it still follows the same pattern of control as a religion. Blind adherance to the rules. No criticism of "the glorious leader" on pain of death, intangible promises of happiness in the future in exchange for misery now, and so on and so on.

Before you start with Zeus.
Religious pluralism and evolutionary spiritualism – the cutting edge of western propaganda against religion since the 18th and 19th century has been completely shattered and destroyed by the Perennial Philosophy and the Traditionalist school. All of what is said, is left unanswered by Modernism but the chariot full of souls keeps on rolling until it eventually falls into the abyss.

As for your question, the answer is yes. If you consciously disbelief in a metaphysical Reality, that would be worse than murder, same counts for the Athenian.
Because that Reality can be the only stable and continues Source of Good, to reject that Reality is to cut off Good from this world and to fall into the unreal.
Once again, look at the modern world. The problems of the world are nothing more than symptoms of the real and only disease, caused by the collective
human thought during the history of mankind and we all have a share in that thought, whether dead or alive.

The difference between Communism and Religion, is that religion is a system of the natural order.
Communism is a rebellion against the nature of things, which doesn’t end too well.
The fruit of both ways is known. Religion is meant to give you happiness in this life, and if you didn’t experience it, then you’ve never practiced it in the correct state of being.

The Noble Qur'an - Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #15 - October 13, 2011, 09:46 PM

No matter how bad you think conscious disbelief is (what does that mean btw?) - How does keeping unbelievers alive forever, just so that they can be repeatedly tortured without end make any sense? How is it Justice? And most of all how can the one who planned and carried this out be called in any way: "The Most Merciful of those who show Mercy."

Repeat the scenes below by infinity.

Watch from 4.12 - and then from 7.10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v9OGOPtrnM

Watch from 46 sec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjDIrjg1M9s
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #16 - October 13, 2011, 09:49 PM

^ The guy who walks off is better than allah because he feels disturbed by the whole thing.
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #17 - October 13, 2011, 10:02 PM

Hassan,

I can also play the sentimental card by posting images of genocides and mass murderers.

As for the video's you posted, the Qur'an uses symbolic language to describe Hell.
But to experience the collective suffering of other's will be probably worse than being burned or boiled in hot water.
Another point is that you only view point 1 of Hell as the only valid point and neglect point 2 and 3 which are equally important.

The Noble Qur'an - Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #18 - October 13, 2011, 10:07 PM

Quote from: iSoK on October 13, 2011, 10:02 PM
I can also play the sentimental card by posting images of genocides and mass murderers.

Again totally irrelevant. No-one here is justifying that.

Quote from: iSoK on October 13, 2011, 10:02 PM
the Qur'an uses symbolic language to describe Hell.

I love this excuse.

Sorry? Symbolic for what? Torture by comfy pillow and comfy chair?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnS49c9KZw8
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #19 - October 13, 2011, 10:12 PM

If you've read my previous post well Hassan, then you'd understand that there is no excuse.

To experience the collective suffering of other's will be worse than being boiled in water or burned alive.

The Noble Qur'an - Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #20 - October 13, 2011, 10:17 PM

Quote from: iSoK on October 13, 2011, 10:12 PM
If you've read my previous post well Hassan, then you'd understand that there is no excuse.

To experience the collective suffering of other's will be worse than being boiled in water or burned alive.

Why should anyone experience that?
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #21 - October 13, 2011, 10:22 PM

Quote from: iSoK on October 13, 2011, 10:12 PM
If you've read my previous post well Hassan, then you'd understand that there is no excuse.

To experience the collective suffering of other's will be worse than being boiled in water or burned alive.

How would you know!?

You haven been boiled before?

Little Fly, Thy summer's play
My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

I too dance and drink, and sing,
Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

Therefore I am a happy fly,
If I live or if I die.
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #22 - October 13, 2011, 10:42 PM

Quote from: Hassan on October 13, 2011, 10:17 PM
Why should anyone experience that?

Because it’s a process of returning to our primordial state.

The monotheist says that there is one God, the mystic says that there is only God.
We were created in the image of God, having all His attributes (tanzih and tasbih).
And if this Tawhid is not in balance it will be ‘burned’ in balance by God’s Light.
Because then the mystic is right, God is the only Essence that is, everything else is unreal.
God will be in every direction when the veils are lifted.

So the process is a restoration of that balance, of achieving Tawhid.

The Noble Qur'an - Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #23 - October 13, 2011, 10:43 PM

Ah Sufi Pimpkin Piping hot!

Little Fly, Thy summer's play
My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

I too dance and drink, and sing,
Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

Therefore I am a happy fly,
If I live or if I die.
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #24 - October 13, 2011, 10:51 PM

Quote from: iSoK on October 13, 2011, 10:42 PM
Because it’s a process of returning to our primordial state.

The monotheist says that there is one God, the mystic says that there is only God.
We were created in the image of God, having all His attributes (tanzih and tasbih).
And if this Tawhid is not in balance it will be ‘burned’ in balance by God’s Light.
Because then the mystic is right, God is the only Essence that is, everything else is unreal.
God will be in every direction when the veils are lifted.

So the process is a restoration of that balance, of achieving Tawhid.

And because unbelievers are unable to arrive at the same perspective you have and reject Islam - they must suffer unbearable agony eternally?

And God planned this? Or did someone else make the rules?

Can he end the suffering - or is he powerless to?

Did he have a choice whether to create those he knew would disbelieve - or was he compelled to create them?

You are doing what all sane Muslims do - and as I did once - spin it as best you can.

But whatever way you spin it - it boils down to eternal torture for those who don't believe.
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #25 - October 13, 2011, 11:06 PM

I don't know what my destiny will be, nor do I know what yours will be.

It reminds me of a story I read once about someone who had a near death experience.
I do not know whether this events were real.

Anyway this person had an experience when he 'died'.
He was in a white room and as soon as he arrived he felt an unbelievable and infinite amount of pain, during this
he had flashbacks of all the people he had hurt physically and emotionally.

Then the pain stopped and a voice told him: 'You've felt what Justice is, but today you will be shown Mercy, because as a human being you are not without faults, you did your best according to your circumstances.'
After a few minutes he woke up.

The question is whether I do my best according to my circumstances.
I really don't know, I can only hope so.

As a Muslim I cannot help but to end this conversation with one of my favourite aya's of the Qur'an.
Good night.

(39:53) Tell them, (O Prophet): “My servants who have committed excesses against themselves, do not despair of Allah's Mercy. Surely Allah forgives all sins. He is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful.

The Noble Qur'an - Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #26 - October 13, 2011, 11:10 PM

Saying is one thing. I could say that I’m always mind–blowingly amazing in bed. The truth is that I am fair. In the same way, allah can claim merciful for itself, but its threats of eternal punishment show it to be anything but merciful!
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #27 - October 13, 2011, 11:10 PM

You seem to know the mind of God. Like being boiled alive is not that bad?

Little Fly, Thy summer's play
My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

I too dance and drink, and sing,
Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

Therefore I am a happy fly,
If I live or if I die.
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #28 - October 13, 2011, 11:13 PM

Quote from: iSoK on October 13, 2011, 11:06 PM
I don't know what my destiny will be, nor do I know what yours will be.

This is a typical cop-out.

Of course you don't know what your destiny will be, nor do I know.

All we can do is look at the claims presented to us and see if they make sense to us. The Qur'an speaks about Hell hundreds of times. It describes it in graphic and very clear language.

Either we can believe it or we can't. (btw you haven't explained conscious disbelief yet?)

Unsurprisingly the vast majority of those born to Muslim families believe it.

They happened to be born into the true religion and will be saved eternal agony.

What a stroke of luck!
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Re: how many of you left islam because of eternal hell
Reply #29 - October 13, 2011, 11:16 PM

What really strikes me is the wonder with which we are supposed to receive the so called 'mercy' of Allah. As if created a fucked up world and then deeming to be merciful every now and again is so divine. Mercy could just have been the default position for everything, there could have been no reason for hell or even the concept of punishment, for Allah is without limit and so can create all kinds of worlds.

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
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