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Theme Changer

 Topic: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets

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  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #120 - November 03, 2011, 11:42 AM

    Oh by the way I am a woman.



    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #121 - November 03, 2011, 11:42 AM

    Mandragoras, I stuck up for you because I thought you might be being misrepresented.

    You're not helping yourself, and you're not helping people come together and break down barriers.

    (Forgive the platitudes.)
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #122 - November 03, 2011, 11:44 AM

    Wow that is the typical response from a muslim to a non muslim. You can not understand what islam is about, you are a kaffiirrr Cheesy

    I think you and DH should have children.

    Sharp of tongue and bountiful of chromosome, they will advance human evolution no end.

    Where is Imam sahib, anyway? Someone needs to tell him that he's pulled.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #123 - November 03, 2011, 11:47 AM

    Wow that is the typical response from a muslim to a non muslim. You can not understand what islam is about, you are a kaffiirrr Cheesy


    I'm a kafir too, I know more than most Muslims about Islam.

    You think like a child I'm afraid. "They have this book, this is what it says, therefore, this is what they think."

    It sounds perfectly logical, except for the fact, having a relgion, by default, makes you illogical - so your practising of it is also as such.

    It's in every religion, there are Jews who don't believe in God. A child would think "hah that's dumb! WTF?!"

    The moment a Muslim becomes completely rational is the moment you can stop worrying about them.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #124 - November 03, 2011, 11:49 AM

    their future children:

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #125 - November 03, 2011, 11:50 AM

    if you beleive what it says in the quoran and hadiths is fine and correct no you are not a good human being.


    Wrong and a thousand times wrong.

    Muslims have many ways of interpreting Islamic texts.

    Just like Christians have many ways of interpreting commands to kill babies

    I HATE the way people like you keep peddling the lie that a "good" Muslim is not a good human being.

    It's utter bullshit - and dehumanises and demonises Muslims.

    Human beings have always found ways to get round nasty stuff.

    Of course "good" Muslims can be good human beings - and they are mostly good human beings.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #126 - November 03, 2011, 11:51 AM

    The problem is there is no "this is what the book says."

    There is however, "this is what I think, therefore this means whatever it is I think."

    And that can, has been and will be a variety of different things, depending on the individual.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #127 - November 03, 2011, 11:56 AM

    their future children:

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    They're actually no longer racists.

    "I’m not a white nationalist anymore," Lamb told The Daily in an exclusive interview, the twins’ first in five years. "My sister and I are pretty liberal now." ... "I’m glad we were in the band," Lynx said, "but I think we should have been pushed toward something a little more mainstream and easier for us to handle than being front-men for a belief system that we didn’t even completely understand at that time. We were little kids."

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #128 - November 03, 2011, 11:59 AM

    I'm a kafir too, I know more than most Muslims about Islam.

    You think like a child I'm afraid. "They have this book, this is what it says, therefore, this is what they think."

    It sounds perfectly logical, except for the fact, having a relgion, by default, makes you illogical - so your practising of it is also as such.

    It's in every religion, there are Jews who don't believe in God. A child would think "hah that's dumb! WTF?!"

    The moment a Muslim becomes completely rational is the moment you can stop worrying about them.


    That is why I say that if you think that the muslims who really think that allllllllll what it says in the quoran and hadiths is correct fine and humane they are not good human beings. Sorry how can a good human being think that is ok to be told by god to take women and children as part of the war booty and ok to have sex with those slaved women. Advocating rape is part of a good human being?Huh??
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #129 - November 03, 2011, 12:03 PM

    Wrong and a thousand times wrong.

    Muslims have many ways of interpreting Islamic texts.

    Just like Christians have many ways of interpreting commands to kill babies

    I HATE the way people like you keep peddling the lie that a "good" Muslim is not a good human being.

    It's utter bullshit - and dehumanises and demonises Muslims.

    Human beings have always found ways to get round nasty stuff.

    Of course "good" Muslims can be good human beings - and they are mostly good human beings.


    Good muslims avoiding the nasty stuff yes, they are good human for that very fact. Good muslims like a mother who puts the hanging rope around her daughter for commiting adultery, no, she is not a good human, she is a religious monster like there are millions. Brainwashed to be monsters.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #130 - November 03, 2011, 12:03 PM

    Wrong and a thousand times wrong.

    Muslims have many ways of interpreting Islamic texts.

    Just like Christians have many ways of interpreting commands to kill babies

    I HATE the way people like you keep peddling the lie that a "good" Muslim is not a good human being.

    It's utter bullshit - and dehumanises and demonises Muslims.

    Human beings have always found ways to get round nasty stuff.

    Of course "good" Muslims can be good human beings - and they are mostly good human beings.


    Even contextually speaking it was being interpreted. Like stoning requiring 4 people to have witnessed the act. To me that is accepting it as a bit fucked up, but as God said it to Jews, can't be completely wrong, so let's make the conditions for it impossible. Personally, if one is going to have an affair, and have it witnessed by 4 people at the same time, well...I think we don't necessarily need those genes. Roll Eyes

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #131 - November 03, 2011, 12:08 PM

    That is why I say that if you think that the muslims who really think that allllllllll what it says in the quoran and hadiths is correct fine and humane they are not good human beings. Sorry how can a good human being think that is ok to be told by god to take women and children as part of the war booty and ok to have sex with those slaved women. Advocating rape is part of a good human being?Huh??


    *Switching to Muslim mode*

    It wasn't rape at the time, the women would be left helpless as they were entirely dependent on men. Besides, as this is no longer the case, the law no longer applies.

    *Back to Ex-Muslim*

    I don't follow the book, I don't have to address something I don't believe in. When Muslim, I had to give a reason for why I believe it's wrong today but not quite as wrong as before, it's a headache...BECAUSE I was a good person.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #132 - November 03, 2011, 12:29 PM

    Basically religion makes good people kind of support horrible things or do horrible things in order to please their god. All victims.
    their future children:

    (Clicky for piccy!)



    Emmmmmm I'm not racist, I'm an advocate of rights of gays lesbians and transgenders, advocate for women rights, support enviromental and children charities. Not the closed minded individual you are trying to portray I'm afraid  Kiss
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #133 - November 03, 2011, 12:41 PM


    Mandragoras

    Being critical of Islam and Islamism doesn't make you a bigot.

    Accepting that there is complete and total determinism between some tenets of Islam / Islamism and all people from a Muslim background is bigoted.

    This is actually the message that many Muslims themselves like to propound - of direct, total causation, especially salafis, Islamists, Maududi-ists, and assorted literalist interpreters of Islam.

    However, it isn't true, and it blinds us to what is at the core of the problem here.

    Its not an issue of nativism versus outsiders.

    Its an issue of value systems.

    You say you don't want your apprehensions towards Islam to be misunderstood, or to be called a Nazi for expressing them. In other words, you claim to want a dialogue and understanding.

    I can understand this and I'd say most people here are willing to extend that understanding to you - but will you return the favour, and try and understand what ex Muslims here have said about the problems of making this an issue of racial nativism, even rhetorically, and of the fallacy of direct causation and determinism between what Islam says, and the reality of Muslims as individuals?

    If you can do this, perhaps we could have a productive conversation.

    The people here are the greatest friends of those who believe in the European values of liberal secular democracy, gender and sexuality equality, free speech and freedom of conscience.

    Won't you be sympathetic to them?

    If you can find it in you to consider this and genuinely appreciate this,  people here would be sympathetic to your concerns - even if they don't agree with you on everything.

    In a spirit of friendship and understanding, please consider this.






    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #134 - November 03, 2011, 12:42 PM

    You wouldn't be those things in the 7th century in Arabia would you?

    Muhammad at least made an attempt at women's rights, said stuff about not cutting trees, harming animals. Failed on the gay thing though, but that's expecting too much considering even now Uganda was about to pass a law killing gay people, and so much homophobia existing right this second.

    I went through stages, being Muslim, passionate, becoming atheist, then becoming an angry atheist who thought all religion, everything to do with it, must be destroyed!!!

    Now I've calmed down, and just see things, for what they are, mostly well intentioned, mistaken at times.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #135 - November 03, 2011, 12:59 PM

    Good muslims avoiding the nasty stuff yes, they are good human for that very fact. Good muslims like a mother who puts the hanging rope around her daughter for commiting adultery, no, she is not a good human, she is a religious monster like there are millions. Brainwashed to be monsters.


    The problem is that you seem to think your definition of a "Good Muslim" is the right one. The fact is it means different things to different people - just as there is no single entity called "True Islam." But it is up to Muslims themselves to define what they believe is true Islam and what it means to be a "Good Muslim" - not you. They are the ones who believe it. Just like it's up to Christians to define what their faith means to them. It's not up to me to tell them they are not "Good Christians."

    These Muslims who avoid the nasty stuff do so because they earnestly believe they are: "Good Muslims" and are practising "True Islam". They use all the tricks and get outs that religionists have and do throughout the ages. They contextualise it. "Oh it was for it's time" They say it is allegorical. They say it is "misinterpreted" and so on.

    They are: "Good Muslims" just as much as a Christian who contextualises the bloodthirsty stuff in the Old Testament is a "Good Christian."

    We used to have some Christians on here like Sparky, Diotima and others who were without out doubt "Good Human Beings". The fact that they defended verses where God orders the killing of babies did not make them "Bad Human Beings".

    You have a simplistic and ignorant - and whats worse- a very dangerous view of Islam and Muslims.

    It dehumanises and demonises ordinary "Good Muslims" who pray regularly and read Quran have a beard or hijab etc…

    It is exactly what the rank and file ignorant mob that are the EDL want to hear and it's people like you who are responsible for propagating and perpetuating that myth.

    It is a cloak to disguise hate, racism and bigotry under the guise that it is just a battle against Islamic Extremism.

    And yes - this myth that - a good Muslim is not a good human being - is responsible for this end product:

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #136 - November 03, 2011, 01:07 PM

    "Its not an issue of nativism versus outsiders.

    Its an issue of value systems"

    Yes I see that when I said the word native European it was interpreted as being racist, white supremacits etc.
    Clash of value systems it is more correct as you very well said. I pointed that I don't mind hindus of eskimos or  because their value systems don't seem to jeopardais (maybe I'm wrong) the human rights system and values we currently have and enjoy, as islam does.
    I also said that I have met lovely muslims, lovely people born in the religion. It's a problem of seeing a value system that doesn't respect me as human, doesn't respect muslims as humans and I wouldn't like to think this value system going to take over the whole world by force or by not force.
    Muslims are people born in the family religion and are automatically considered muslims. I understand that.
    I don't like insults though. I havent' said kill all the muslims, kick all the muslims to Arabia or things like that. In return I have been insulted several times.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #137 - November 03, 2011, 01:16 PM

    The problem is that you seem to think your definition of a "Good Muslim" is the right one. The fact is it means different things to different people - just as there is no single entity called "True Islam." But it is up to Muslims themselves to define what they believe is true Islam and what it means to be a "Good Muslim" - not you. They are the ones who believe it. Just like it's up to Christians to define what their faith means to them. It's not up to me to tell them they are not "Good Christians."

    These Muslims who avoid the nasty stuff do so because they earnestly believe they are: "Good Muslims" and are practising "True Islam". They use all the tricks and get outs that religionists have and do throughout the ages. They contextualise it. "Oh it was for it's time" They say it is allegorical. They say it is "misinterpreted" and so on.

    They are: "Good Muslims" just as much as a Christian who contextualises the bloodthirsty stuff in the Old Testament is a "Good Christian."

    We used to have some Christians on here like Sparky, Diotima and others who were without out doubt "Good Human Beings". The fact that they defended verses where God orders the killing of babies did not make them "Bad Human Beings".

    You have a simplistic and ignorant - and whats worse- a very dangerous view of Islam and Muslims.

    It dehumanises and demonises ordinary "Good Muslims" who pray regularly and read Quran have a beard or hijab etc…

    It is exactly what the rank and file ignorant mob that are the EDL want to hear and it's people like you who are responsible for propagating and perpetuating that myth.

    It is a cloak to disguise hate, racism and bigotry under the guise that it is just a battle against Islamic Extremism.

    And yes - this myth - that a good Muslim is not a good human being is responsible for this end product:

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    I'll stick to others as my psico
    The problem is that you seem to think your definition of a "Good Muslim" is the right one. The fact is it means different things to different people - just as there is no single entity called "True Islam." But it is up to Muslims themselves to define what they believe is true Islam and what it means to be a "Good Muslim" - not you. They are the ones who believe it. Just like it's up to Christians to define what their faith means to them. It's not up to me to tell them they are not "Good Christians."

    These Muslims who avoid the nasty stuff do so because they earnestly believe they are: "Good Muslims" and are practising "True Islam". They use all the tricks and get outs that religionists have and do throughout the ages. They contextualise it. "Oh it was for it's time" They say it is allegorical. They say it is "misinterpreted" and so on.

    They are: "Good Muslims" just as much as a Christian who contextualises the bloodthirsty stuff in the Old Testament is a "Good Christian."

    We used to have some Christians on here like Sparky, Diotima and others who were without out doubt "Good Human Beings". The fact that they defended verses where God orders the killing of babies did not make them "Bad Human Beings".

    You have a simplistic and ignorant - and whats worse- a very dangerous view of Islam and Muslims.

    It dehumanises and demonises ordinary "Good Muslims" who pray regularly and read Quran have a beard or hijab etc…

    It is exactly what the rank and file ignorant mob that are the EDL want to hear and it's people like you who are responsible for propagating and perpetuating that myth.

    It is a cloak to disguise hate, racism and bigotry under the guise that it is just a battle against Islamic Extremism.

    And yes - this myth - that a good Muslim is not a good human being is responsible for this end product:

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    Honestly, you can think whatever you want about me. I'm the next sniper or whatever you want to say. Just accept that I don't consider that you understand my point of view not a little bit.

    " But it is up to Muslims themselves to define what they believe is true Islam and what it means to be a "Good Muslim" - not you. They are the ones who believe it. "

    Sorry are you trying to say that I can not have my oppinion about islam? It is up to them?  Cheesy The moment islam talks about me and my family and friends and everybody in this world with such disrespect and hate, yes I will have my oppinion about islam. And you are lucky that the mayority of people don't really know what it says in the quoran, they beleive what the media feed us. It's all flowers and cottoncandy.  So far from reality.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #138 - November 03, 2011, 01:17 PM

    But how can it take over the world when what you define as a "value system" is only in 3 countries or so out of 54 Muslim countries? One has been taken away recently, one has given women the vote and to run in elections.

    Looking at the news, quickly, I think it's safe to say if anything is sweeping the world it's Western values.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #139 - November 03, 2011, 01:20 PM

    Quote from: Mandragoras
    Sorry are you trying to say that I can not have my oppinion about islam? It is up to them?  Cheesy The moment islam talks about me and my family and friends and everybody in this world with such disrespect and hate, yes I will have my oppinion about islam. And you are lucky that the mayority of people don't really know what it says in the quoran, they beleive what the media feed us. It's all flowers and cottoncandy.  So far from reality.


    But that's not what you're doing. You're saying "this is what I believe, and this is what you ought to believe too, about Islam. My interpretation is the right one."

    We've heard that before, and can recognize it instantly.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #140 - November 03, 2011, 01:22 PM

    Also, interchanging Muslims and Islam that freely is confusing people. As confusing as interchanging the weatherman and climatology.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #141 - November 03, 2011, 01:23 PM

    Sorry are you trying to say that I can not have my oppinion about islam? It is up to them?  Cheesy The moment islam talks about me and my family and friends and everybody in this world with such disrespect and hate, yes I will have my oppinion about islam. And you are lucky that the mayority of people don't really know what it says in the quoran, they beleive what the media feed us. It's all flowers and cottoncandy.  So far from reality.


    No - you can have an opinion - I can have an opinion - we can all have an opinion.

    But what I won't do is say "A Good Muslim is not a Good Human Being" as if this was a statement of fact.

    By peddling this simplistic and misleading statement: "A Good Muslim is not a Good Human Being" is to dehumanise all practising Muslims.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #142 - November 03, 2011, 01:25 PM

    But how can it take over the world when what you define as a "value system" is only in 3 countries or so out of 54 Muslim countries? One has been taken away recently, one has given women the vote and to run in elections.

    Looking at the news, quickly, I think it's safe to say if anything is sweeping the world it's Western values.


    What about personal system values? To think that non muslim are the fuel of the hell and Ala puts a veil in our eyes etc to be non muslim and wicked?
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #143 - November 03, 2011, 01:29 PM


    Mandragoras has expressed that Islam exercises complete deterministic causation over practising Muslims.

    (I'm giving her some leeway because English isn't her first language)

    This is a dangerous belief to hold. Its also a belief that is asserted by many Muslims, and not just Islamists.

    Its another reminder of the urgency to critically scrutinise Islam and the truth claims and determinism claims it makes.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #144 - November 03, 2011, 01:35 PM

    What about personal system values? To think that non muslim are the fuel of the hell and Ala puts a veil in our eyes etc to be non muslim and wicked?


    Why are you asking me? Ask a Muslim who thinks that. Huh?

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #145 - November 03, 2011, 01:36 PM

    Islam clearly says suicide is wrong, in plain English.

    Suicide bombers, disagree, because they want to.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #146 - November 03, 2011, 01:39 PM

    Nop, they have the justification to die fighting the unbelivers as it is praised in the quoran.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #147 - November 03, 2011, 01:41 PM

    Mandragoras has expressed that Islam exercises complete deterministic causation over practising Muslims.

    (I'm giving her some leeway because English isn't her first language)

    This is a dangerous belief to hold. Its also a belief that is asserted by many Muslims, and not just Islamists.



    Anjem Chaudhury would be overjoyed that so many non-Muslims fall for this as well as Muslims.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #148 - November 03, 2011, 01:42 PM

    Nop, they have the justification to die fighting the unbelivers as it is praised in the quoran.


    Dear Sheikh Mandragoras. I was a devout "Good Muslim" and I believed suicide bombing was against Islam.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #149 - November 03, 2011, 01:42 PM

    Why are you asking me? Ask a Muslim who thinks that. Huh?


    What do you mean? It is what it says in the quoran constantly, I have not made it up. If a muslim chooses not to beleive that ok, but it is what it says.
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