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 Topic: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets

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  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #390 - November 08, 2011, 06:12 PM
    @ ^ Posthuman. I think we should go back to your initial "argument":

    Quote
    Native means displaced/replaced by force. Nobody talks about the natives of Europe, because most of the "natives" of Europe, are not in Europe, by the actions of people from Europe. This cannot be said of any other "native". In reality that's what it means. There's no such thing as a native therefore. The human story is a story of migration.


    You appear to be saying here that  the historical process of European conquest and colonization of lands outside Europe has rendered the term "native" when applied to Europeans  singularly invalid.

    In other words, whilst it is perfectly valid to talk of "natives" of Asia Minor, Turkey or other parts of the world the Europeans, by virtue of the conquest and colonization of lands outside Europe by Europeans, have uniquely forfeited the right to regard themselves as "natives" in the continent of Europe.

    Do I understand you correctly?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #391 - November 08, 2011, 06:13 PM
    Quote from: DH on November 08, 2011, 05:39 PM
    But Dave, does your friend flout the commandments of Allah:

    1) out of ignorance of of those commandments and/or their absolutely obligatory nature

    2) out of WILFUL disobedience to those commandments whilst being fully acquainted with their mandatory nature and the threatened eternal consequences of flouting them

    3) Through conscious "reinterpetation", which must necessarily involve a good deal of mental gymnastics and self-delusion

    ?


    My issue is whether such so-called "non-literalist Muslims" form,as claimed,  the "vast majority" of self-defined "Muslims" and if they do how easily could they be persuaded to metamorphose  - Gremlin-like -  into "literalist" Muslims after coming into contact with "literalist" teachings.

    IT HAS been known to happen


    All Muslims know that 5 times prayer is an obligation.

    Most Muslims don't do it 5 times a day.

    If most have trouble with something as basic as that, I don't think you need to worry about a literalist majority.

    Most Muslims do eid prayer, never are there more people in mosques than in eid prayers, one of the few NON-OBLIGATORY prayers.

    How do you explain this, they KNOW quite clearly what to do LITERALLY 5 times a day and the consequences, yet most don't at all or just a few, sometimes.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #392 - November 08, 2011, 06:15 PM
    Quote from: DH on November 08, 2011, 06:12 PM
    @ ^ Posthuman. I think we should go back to your initial "argument":

    You appear to be saying here that  the historical process of European conquest and colonization of lands outside Europe has rendered the term "native" when applied to Europeans  singularly invalid.

    In other words, whilst it is perfectly valid to talk of "natives" of Asia Minor, Turkey or other parts of the world the Europeans, by virtue of the conquest and colonization of lands outside Europe by Europeans, have uniquely forfeited the right to regard themselves as "natives" in the continent of Europe.

    Do I understand you correctly?


    I didn't call Turkish people natives.

    Nor did I say Europeans invalidated their nativity by conquest. I'm saying the term emerges when it has to, in the face of a superior force that threatens it.

    Two strawmen arguments^^^ Ozonedance
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #393 - November 08, 2011, 06:18 PM
    If an army comes into Europe and becomes the sovereign by force, has power over you - then you, and I, can call ourselves natives. Otherwise, it's just pathetic. To be honest. parrot
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #394 - November 08, 2011, 06:18 PM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 08, 2011, 06:13 PM
    All Muslims know that 5 times prayer is an obligation.

    Most Muslims don't do it 5 times a day.

    If most have trouble with something as basic as that, I don't think you need to worry about a literalist majority.

    Most Muslims do eid prayer, never are there more people in mosques than in eid prayers, one of the few NON-OBLIGATORY prayers.

    How do you explain this, they KNOW quite clearly what to do LITERALLY 5 times a day and the consequences, yet most don't at all or just a few, sometimes.




    It's called Taqqiyah. Most Muslims know that DH's watchful eyes are on them, so they pretend to be moderate and non-practicing to try to fool him into thinking there is no threat of Muslamism Conspiracies. But DH is no fool, he's wise to their act and can see right through their facade.
    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #395 - November 08, 2011, 06:22 PM
    Quote from: toor on November 08, 2011, 06:08 PM
    OK. With reference to my questions:

    You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about creeping Islamism. No doubt, Islamism is fundamentally reactionary, and is opposed to the workings of a free society; however, while the danger is at its clearest where Islamists have substantial political influence, the actions of a minority within a minority don't inspire a similar fear in me, because it's less than obvious to me that they form a mainstream opinion. What am I missing?

    Some more right-wing members of this site make the mistake of conflating Muslims and Islamists, and choose to ignore the things that both may prefer (as opposed to the things that Islamists may specifically demand). You sometimes (not generally, I must add) leave me wondering whether you do the same. An example: your opposition to Islamic banking provision on the high street (something Muslims might generally prefer - and a market that certain banks have chosen to address - as opposed to being the result of an Islamist demand for something to be made compulsory). Such arrangements are legal, and choosing to participate in such arrangements is voluntary for both banks and depositors, but the problem from your perspective is that it brings religion into banking (at the very least) and legitimizes Islamist demands (at worst). Is this a fair summation?

    The issue of Sharia arbitration - something that is presumably entered into by willing participants - is another example. Where it does not break the law, it strikes me that your objection is its association with Sharia and no more. To me, the law of the land is always to be obeyed, and the state has no business interfering in the lawful conduct of its citizens. Curtailing the otherwise lawful conduct of a section of the population for specifically confessional reasons - bearing in mind that Sharia arbitrations have no power to override the law of the land - strikes me as somehow odd; and yet, this looks like the logical outcome of what you propose (making Sharia- and other religiously-based arbitration illegal is my reading - again, is this fair?). How do you square this circle, or does this circle not exist? If not, why not?

    To approach this from another angle: do you think that Muslims will always be bound - by religious blackmail - to choose Sharia arbitration?


    WAKE UP!

    The Islamization began in the 8th century here in Britain! Wake up you loony lefty! Look!

    This is a coin from 8th century Britain.



    See the Arabic writing on top?

    King Offa of Mercia, a British King! Minted coins with Arabic inscriptions on them. The Muslamics have been planning this for over a thousand years!

     This is sparta
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #396 - November 08, 2011, 06:23 PM
     Cheesy
    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #397 - November 08, 2011, 06:26 PM
    Quote from: David
    DH...it's a bit of 1), a bit of 2) and a double measure of don't-give-a-fuck.


    So your friend has technically apostatized yet desperately clings to their "Muslim" identity ie what I indeed refer to AS a "clinger".

    Quote
    You ignored a crucial part of my point [on Christians].


    I ignored it because I did not consider it to be "crucial".

    Quote
    She an oddity as a Muslim,


    In other words, far from what Hassan and others here might want us to believe, people like your friend do NOT constitute the "vast majority" of people with a Muslim identity.

    Quote
    She (wrongly) ascribes her innate generosity to the values of Islam, but has allowed her daughter to be baptised. What's not to llike?


    That she is still attached to Islam by however tenuous a thread. In a moment of crisis in her life are you sure that thread could not develop into a bungee and TWANGG!?

    Quote
    I tend to go deaf when people call me 'Dave'.


    Sorry Dafydd.
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #398 - November 08, 2011, 06:36 PM
    Dealing with this first:

    Quote from: posthuman
    I didn't call Turkish people natives.


    Wasn't such a view implicit in your above challenge to me:

    Quote
    Prove that the majority population of Turkey are not native to that region.

    ?

    Please clarify. Do you or do you NOT consider the modern population of Turkey to be "native" to that region?

    Quote
    Nor did I say Europeans invalidated their nativity by conquest.



    Quote
    I'm saying the term emerges when it has to, in the face of a superior force that threatens it.


    So the term, say, "native Egyptian" IS appropriate when applied to the Christians of Egypt on the grounds that they ARE threatened by a "superior force" of Arabs?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #399 - November 08, 2011, 06:45 PM
    Quote from: Jesus Christ on November 08, 2011, 06:23 PM
    Cheesy


    Remember the CEMB inverse square law of funniness.
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #400 - November 08, 2011, 06:46 PM
    This is not addressed at me, I know, but...
    Quote from: toor on November 08, 2011, 06:08 PM
    You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about creeping Islamism. No doubt, Islamism is fundamentally reactionary, and is opposed to the workings of a free society; however, while the danger is at its clearest where Islamists have substantial political influence, the actions of a minority within a minority don't inspire a similar fear in me, because it's less than obvious to me that they form a mainstream opinion. What am I missing?

    The way displays of Islamic piety are creeping out of the home and the mosque and onto the street and making people who have no real interest in religion uneasy and unhappy.

    I'm an emotional, not an intellectual being, so I have little to add to a reasoned argument like this, but hijabs on the streets of London upset me because they forbid many of the things I hold most dear (pluralism, booze, the company of women).

    And their proliferation is inspired, alas, by the Islamists. Small in number, perhaps, but noisy, bullying fuckers.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #401 - November 08, 2011, 06:47 PM
    You implied the Turks are mostly from the Turkic hordes, I asked you to prove they were. In this CONTEXT the word native applies because you are saying an outside superior force made the term emerge.

    Your proof for your initial claim will determine whether or not I use the n word.

    Christianity is a religion.  Copts who become Muslims, or became Muslims, don't lose their 'nativeness'. Muslim does not = immigrant.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #402 - November 08, 2011, 06:49 PM
    Quote from: David on November 08, 2011, 06:46 PM
    This is not addressed at me, I know, but...The way displays of Islamic piety are creeping out of the home and the mosque and onto the street and making people who have no real interest in religion uneasy and unhappy.

    I'm an emotional, not an intellectual being, so I have little to add to a reasoned argument like this, but hijabs on the streets of London upset me because they forbid many of the things I hold most dear (pluralism, booze, the company of women).

    And their proliferation is inspired, alas, by the Islamists. Small in number, perhaps, but noisy, bullying fuckers.


    If you come across a bully, tell them to f*** off. That's the problem here, people mind their business too much, gives room for right-wing and religious cunts, as well as gang members and other forms of idiocy to flex their wanker muscle.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #403 - November 08, 2011, 06:56 PM
    Quote from: David
    I'm an emotional, not an intellectual being, so I have little to add to a reasoned argument like this, but hijabs on the streets of London upset me because they forbid many of the things I hold most dear (pluralism, booze, the company of women).


    And the wearing can be reasonably taken as a proud visible of endorsement of societies where women are FORCED to attire themselves so whether they want to or not.

    Quote
    And their proliferation is inspired, alas, by the Islamists. Small in number, perhaps, but noisy, bullying fuckers.


    You are overlooking the fact that hijab enforcement by parents on daughters, brothers on sisters has a provenance in the "Islamic World" long before the so-called "modern Islamist movement" and the transplantation of this "cultural" tradition from places like Pakistan etc is largely responsible for the growth of Islamic dress we have seen in the west. "Islamists" are generally engaged in "picking up" "wayward" and "ignorant" Muslims like the girl who stabbed the British MP stephen Timms.
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #404 - November 08, 2011, 06:57 PM
    Quote from: DH on November 08, 2011, 06:26 PM
    So your friend has technically apostatized yet desperately clings to their "Muslim" identity ie what I indeed refer to AS a "clinger".

    That she is still attached to Islam by however tenuous a thread. In a moment of crisis in her life are you sure that thread could not develop into a bungee and TWANGG!?

    She is a very secular, non-conformist , 'cultural Muslim'. She's not clinging to anything, and there is no chance of any bungee-twanging. I would consider her technically an apostate. she considers herself a Muslim. Who cares? We're going out for a drink tomorrow. That's what matters.

    Quote
    Sorry Dafydd.

    Dim problem.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #405 - November 08, 2011, 07:07 PM
    Quote from: DH on November 08, 2011, 06:56 PM
    And the wearing can be reasonably taken as a proud visible of endorsement of societies where women are FORCED to attire themselves so whether they want to or not.

    You are overlooking the fact that hijab enforcement by parents on daughters, brothers on sisters has a provenance in the "Islamic World" long before the so-called "modern Islamist movement" and the transplantation of this "cultural" tradition from places like Pakistan etc is largely responsible for the growth of Islamic dress we have seen in the west. "Islamists" are generally engaged in "picking up" "wayward" and "ignorant" Muslims like the girl who stabbed the British MP stephen Timms.


    I wouldn't argue with much of that, but there has been a marked hijab-proliferation in the last ten years, while large Muslim communities have been here for forty-odd years. Perhaps wrongly, I put it down to Islamism rippling outwards.

    Waifs and strays like Roshonara Choudhary can be picked up by any nutty creed, from EST to the Rajneeshis. If they were the limit of the Islamists' influence I wouldn't be worried. Sadly, I am. I think we all are (Toor excepted, perhaps).
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #406 - November 08, 2011, 07:25 PM
    Quote from: toor on November 08, 2011, 06:08 PM
    Some more right-wing members of this site make the mistake of conflating Muslims and Islamists, and choose to ignore the things that both may prefer (as opposed to the things that Islamists may specifically demand). You sometimes (not generally, I must add) leave me wondering whether you do the same.


    Phew! I thought you were going to ask me when did I stop beating up my girlfriend.

    Wonder no more toor, that is indeed a misreading.


    Quote from: toor on November 08, 2011, 06:08 PM
    To approach this from another angle: do you think that Muslims will always be bound - by religious blackmail - to choose Sharia arbitration?


    Do you believe that there is no coercive element in the pressures, atmospherics and dynamics and drive towards sharia arbitration? I believe that it is disingenuous (to be polite) to say there is none. I'd even say its a strange turn to be aggrieved by the discussion of  that.

    As you now appreciate though, not being a reductive determinist mapping causal effect onto individuals directly and in totality and in all consequential situations between pressures, ideology, religious precept and individual action, I don't believe that Muslims will always be bound by, etc etc

    Hope that clears up your confusion  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #407 - November 08, 2011, 07:40 PM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 08, 2011, 05:59 PM
    Pasting a whole article isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card I'm afraid.


    I'd have to be in jail to need a card to get out of it and I'm free as a bird.

    Read the piece I quoted - it outlines the issues specifically, especially the parts that I highlighted in bold.

    The failure of the majority of Islamic institutions to submit to the marriage act means many women are without due legal protection, in distinction to all other religions and their institutions in the UK.

    This is problematic, you'd agree?

    Lets leave the word 'massive' aside for a moment, that seems to be the main thing irking you.

    Lets replace it with 'significant'.

    Can you see it now?





    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #408 - November 08, 2011, 07:41 PM
    Quote from: DH on November 08, 2011, 06:56 PM
    And the wearing can be reasonably taken as a proud visible of endorsement of societies where women are FORCED to attire themselves so whether they want to or not.

    You are overlooking the fact that hijab enforcement by parents on daughters, brothers on sisters has a provenance in the "Islamic World" long before the so-called "modern Islamist movement" and the transplantation of this "cultural" tradition from places like Pakistan etc is largely responsible for the growth of Islamic dress we have seen in the west. "Islamists" are generally engaged in "picking up" "wayward" and "ignorant" Muslims like the girl who stabbed the British MP stephen Timms.



    Don't know what orifice you've switched to now for your ramblings, but the majority of women in Pakistan don't wear a headscarf.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #409 - November 08, 2011, 07:50 PM
    Quote from: billy on November 08, 2011, 07:40 PM
    I'd have to be in jail to need a card to get out of it and I'm free as a bird.

    Read the piece I quoted - it outlines the issues specifically, especially the parts that I highlighted in bold.

    The failure of the majority of Islamic institutions to submit to the marriage act means many women are without due legal protection, in distinction to all other religions and their institutions in the UK.

    This is problematic, you'd agree?

    Lets leave the word 'massive' aside for a moment, that seems to be the main thing irking you.

    Lets replace it with 'significant'.

    Can you see it now?


    It's not irking me, it's just incorrect. You wouldn't have brought this up if you questioned the 2 thirds figure, that's what motivated you. If it was a significant problem, there are loads of significant problems within every community, forced marriages (not arranged) within Sikh culture, is a significant problem. As it is in other South Asian communities.
    You're also assuming that a marriage unrecognized by law = husband will be a dickhead.

    That's another unfounded leap, especially considering that in these courts of arbitration it's mostly women getting the divorce. Again, as I said before, where the law is breached it should be enforced. Where the law is followed, there's still domestic abuse in all communities.

    CASE BY CASE, I wont succumb to generalizations, it's lazy and too easy.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #410 - November 08, 2011, 07:51 PM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 08, 2011, 06:49 PM
    If you come across a bully, tell them to f*** off. That's the problem here, people mind their business too much, gives room for right-wing and religious cunts, as well as gang members and other forms of idiocy to flex their wanker muscle.


    I'd agree with that mate  Afro
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #411 - November 08, 2011, 07:55 PM
    I'm Glaswegian, we don't take kindly to wankers. Baseball bat
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #412 - November 08, 2011, 07:59 PM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 08, 2011, 07:50 PM
    It's not irking me, it's just incorrect. You wouldn't have brought this up if you questioned the 2 thirds figure, that's what motivated you. If it was a significant problem


    One of the reasons why I was motivated to bring it up is because my ex-partner had her life wrecked by it, and that affected me too, and it is a significant problem which in this context is about the reluctance of many Islamic institutions to defer to secular law in the matter of marital and domestic governance.


    Quote
    You're also assuming that a marriage unrecognized by law = husband will be a dickhead.


    Marital rights are enshrined in law to protect women and men. Circumventing those rights, even by ommission is a major perversion of that precept. That in and of itself is reason enough to address this. Its about protection and provision, not presumption.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #413 - November 08, 2011, 08:07 PM

    This thread went off on one today, to be honest.

    My point was simple - its possible to repudiate EDL-ist type ideology and assumptions of collective guilt and responsibility against Muslims, and the idea that all Muslims are determined by a direct and causative link between Islam and their attitudes and actions in all cases (something the EDL crowd share in their assumption with Islamists), and simultaneously address issues that need to be addressed regarding things like sharia and Islamism and other Islamic precepts.

    Its vital to do that.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #414 - November 08, 2011, 08:13 PM
    Quote from: billy on November 08, 2011, 07:59 PM
    One of the reasons why I was motivated to bring it up is because my ex-partner had her life wrecked by it, and that affected me too, and it is a significant problem which in this context is about the reluctance of many Islamic institutions to defer to secular law in the matter of marital and domestic governance.


    Marital rights are enshrined in law to protect women and men. Circumventing those rights, even by ommission is a major perversion of that precept. That in and of itself is reason enough to address this. Its about protection and provision, not presumption.





    Ok, I've got no experience of it, you have. Understandable then why I'm saying it's not a big issue, and you saying it's significant. Probably both right when taking experience into account.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #415 - November 08, 2011, 08:19 PM
    Quote from: billy on November 08, 2011, 08:07 PM
    This thread went off on one today, to be honest.

    My point was simple - its possible to repudiate EDL-ist type ideology and assumptions of collective guilt and responsibility against Muslims, and the idea that all Muslims are determined by a direct and causative link between Islam and their attitudes and actions in all cases (something the EDL crowd share in their assumption with Islamists), and simultaneously address issues that need to be addressed regarding things like sharia and Islamism and other Islamic precepts.

    Its vital to do that.


    Scottish Muslims are very different than English ones. We have 30 thousand Muslims in Glasgow alone, the closest mosque to me, has a Sikh temple next door, and a church across the road. The main religions here though, are Rangers and Celtic.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #416 - November 08, 2011, 08:22 PM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 08, 2011, 08:13 PM
    Ok, I've got no experience of it, you have. Understandable then why I'm saying it's not a big issue, and you saying it's significant. Probably both right when taking experience into account.



    Well, if it exists as a problem, it exists. All that it needs is a bit of focus to deal with it.

    Focussing means getting it in perspective, and you're right to guard against imbalance, I'm with you on that. Especially in the face of EDL type cretins and knuckle draggers.

    All I'm saying is if you don't leave a space for criticism of religion, we're in a bad situation.

    No hard feelings eh mate  Afro
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #417 - November 08, 2011, 08:31 PM
    I for one think Billy and posthuman are equally sexy. Wink
    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #418 - November 08, 2011, 08:35 PM
    Quote
    No hard feelings eh mate  Afro



    Oh I've been hard the whole time. Sorry. Just do it
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #419 - November 08, 2011, 08:36 PM
    Quote from: billy on November 08, 2011, 07:25 PM
    Phew! I thought you were going to ask me when did I stop beating up my girlfriend.


    What you do in your bedroom is none of my business  lipsrsealed


    Quote from: billy on November 08, 2011, 07:25 PM
    Do you believe that there is no coercive element in the pressures, atmospherics and dynamics and drive towards sharia arbitration? I believe that it is disingenuous (to be polite) to say there is none. I'd even say its a strange turn to be aggrieved by the discussion of  that.


    My understanding of arbitration is that for two parties to undergo it, both must agree, in writing. Now while I think anyone who willingly agrees would be acting foolishly - the results of arbitration are legally enforcable by civil courts - the choice is surely theirs to make, and second-guessing why they made the choice (other than the obvious bit about Muslims preferring to follow Sharia where possible) is going to get very messy very quickly, no? I understand that arbitration still cannot override criminal or family law; mediation (where family law issues might be problematic) is not generally legally enforcable, unless I've gotten this wrong (I don't even play a lawyer on TV, so this is easily possible).

    As to this drive and the attached rhetorical question - who leads it? I'm not aggrieved, your curious rhetorical answer notwithstanding.


    edited to add:

    Quote from: billy on November 08, 2011, 07:59 PM
    One of the reasons why I was motivated to bring it up is because my ex-partner had her life wrecked by it, and that affected me too, and it is a significant problem which in this context is about the reluctance of many Islamic institutions to defer to secular law in the matter of marital and domestic governance.


    Marital rights are enshrined in law to protect women and men. Circumventing those rights, even by ommission is a major perversion of that precept. That in and of itself is reason enough to address this. Its about protection and provision, not presumption.


    I didn't see this as I was typing, sorry. Was your ex-partner using mediation/arbitration, or was the other parent in this equation being a dick and claiming Islamic precedent (if you don't mind my asking)?
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
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