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Theme Changer

 Topic: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets

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  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #480 - November 14, 2011, 06:16 PM

    Muslim isn't an ideology. It's a person, or a description of a person.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #481 - November 15, 2011, 06:36 AM

    ^@deusvult. That's right, a person who follows the ideology of Islam. Reduced to semantic nitpicking now are we?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #482 - November 15, 2011, 07:00 AM

    Quote from: post human
    Yes....and Turkey has what to do with this?


    It has to do with the fact that you stated above that a country has to have been subjected to some kind of invasion/occupation involving a displacement of the indigenous population for a distinction between "native" and "non-native" to apply. This certainly happened in the case of Anatolia and North Africa with respect to successive waves of Turkish/Arab conquest which DID involve large-scale massacre of the incumbent population - which your red herring of Constantinople (which is NOT in Anatolia anyhow) does NOTHING to detract from. Furthermore, throughout the period of Arab/Turkish occupation the established non-Muslim populations have, right up to the PRESENT day, been subject to oppressive measures not unlike that suffered by the Native Americans, as well as pogroms including the annihilation by the Muslims of the ancient Armenian population of the region. Or don't NON-Muslims count?

    Quote
    Maybe Iraq, Palestine...would be a better example. Or...do Muslims not count?


    Firstly why are you able to express an opinion with respect to Iraq/Palestine but not to Turkey? And why do the Muslim "Palestyuns" qualify as natives and as distinct from WHICH "non-native" group of people?

    Quote
    You seriously asking this question? Why ISN'T a Muslim Turk an invader? Go fuck yourself. lol  wacko


    All right. So why IS a Turk a "native" of Anatolia?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #483 - November 15, 2011, 08:39 AM

    Quote
    I take it you are implying that "Islam" is whatever someone who calls themselves a "Muslim" says it is. If so I take it you regard the racist ideology of the Nation of Islam to be as much "real Islam" as that of orthodox sunnis?


    I'm not saying Islam is anything. You made the claim that you have knowledge of "real Islam". I only have have knowledge of people.

    Quote
    Let me remind you that it is YOU that confidently stated above that "ALL Muslims" understand the Qur'anic prayer requirement "literally" - just as it was not ME who first proffered a distinction between "literalist" and "non-literalist" Muslims. What puts YOU in a more of a "position" to make such confident assertions of Muslim beliefs than me? Furthermore, if we accept your self-contradicting statement,  neither Hassan, billy nor anybody else  are in a position to confidently assert that "most Muslims" are "non-literalists"? Correct?


    Find me a person who calls themselves Muslim and states that prayer is not obligatory, then I will retract my statement to "most Muslims think prayer is obligatory".

    Quote
    Are you absolutely sure about that? And I ask you again, is it or is it not laid out in extra-Qur'anic sources?


    DUH! It's not in the Qur'an, you've just said "extra-Qur'anic sources", thus, agreeing that it's not the Qur'an.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #484 - November 15, 2011, 09:00 AM

    Quote
    Type "Muslims Praying" into Google images and select some of those alleged modes of Muslim prayer that "vary" from:


    If Google Images is your level of scholarship then I'm debating with an imbecile.

    Quote
    So is a suicide bomber a "Real Muslim" or not?


    It's real to the suicide bomber, it's a heresy to the rest. I don't claim to know Real Islam, you do. I don't believe such a thing exists. You do.

    Quote
    Spurious comparison typical of your "debating" methodology. Islam likewise comprises both rational and IRrational beliefs. Both are integral to the belief system. Most Buddhists are LITERALISTS when it comes the core buddhist doctrine of reincarnation. If someone says "I am a buddhist" it is, by your own admission, reasonable to assume that they believe in reincarnation literally.


    "While all Buddhist traditions seem to accept some notion of rebirth, there is no unified view about precisely how events unfold after the moment of death."

    It is valid for a Buddhist to believe that the rebirth is the body, the consciousness, the karma or even the scientific fact that bacteria feeds off your body and becomes the new life that arose from death.

    Quote
    Likewise, if someone says "I am a Muslim" it is reasonable to assume that in their ideal world adulterers would be "mercilessly" flogged - LITERALLY.


    It is reasonable to assume you're a dickhead.

    I'm not interested in what's reasonable to assume, I judge people by their actions not their statements about what they claim to believe. Most burglars believe stealing is wrong, it doesn't count as evidence in court. Smiley

    Quote
    Are you saying that the verse in question is only reasonably open to a SINGLE LITERAL "interpretation" and cannot be equally validly "interpreted" with all sorts of "nuances" and "contexts" which would FULLY JUSTIFY suicide bombing?


    It means what you want it to mean. For me, the command to not kill yourself does not mean "kill yourself". That's what MY interpretation is, if you WISH to have the same level of self-delusion as a psychopathic killer then that's YOUR business. But it's irrelevant to MOST Muslims who do not even think it a valid interpretation. But YOU and SUICIDE BOMBERS have the same level of thinking it appears.  Smiley

    Quote
    It means that if ALL Muslims are literalists it means that MOST Muslims are NOT "non-literalists". WHATEVER THAT MEANS I might add. In fact it is MEANINGLESS. "Islam" means submitting to the will of Allah which means LITERALLY DOING and NOT DOING whatever Allah says they should do and not do. My earlier reference to a "beer swilling, prayer avoiding etc" "variety" was a sarcastic rejection of the whole concept of "non-literal Islam". How does one "non-literally interpret" "don't drink alcohol" so that it means "Go ahead....destroy your liver"?


    You may interpret Islam that way if you wish. I'm only interested in what people do, not what they 'claim' to believe or say.

    I don't care if people think Zionists killed Americans on 9/11, I do however care if someone kills a Jew because of this. That's action vs belief. They are worlds apart. Afro






    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #485 - November 15, 2011, 09:08 AM

    Quote
    It has to do with the fact that you stated above that a country has to have been subjected to some kind of invasion/occupation involving a displacement of the indigenous population for a distinction between "native" and "non-native" to apply. This certainly happened in the case of Anatolia and North Africa with respect to successive waves of Turkish/Arab conquest which DID involve large-scale massacre of the incumbent population - which your red herring of Constantinople (which is NOT in Anatolia anyhow) does NOTHING to detract from. Furthermore, throughout the period of Arab/Turkish occupation the established non-Muslim populations have, right up to the PRESENT day, been subject to oppressive measures not unlike that suffered by the Native Americans, as well as pogroms including the annihilation by the Muslims of the ancient Armenian population of the region. Or don't NON-Muslims count?


    Istanbul, is a red herring when it comes to Turkey?

    LOL You have lost it.  Cheesy  Cheesy

    "Anatolia (from Greek Ἀνατολή Anatolē — "east" or "(sun)rise"; also Asia Minor, from Greek: Μικρὰ Ἀσία Mikrá Asía "small Asia"; in modern Turkish: Anadolu) is a geographic and historical term denoting the westernmost protrusion of Asia, comprising the majority of the Republic of Turkey. The region is bounded by the Black Sea to the north, Georgia to the northeast, the Armenian Highland to the east, Mesopotamia to the southeast, the Mediterranean Sea to the south and the Aegean Sea to the west. Anatolia has been home to many civilizations throughout history, such as the Hittites, Phrygians, Lydians, Persians, Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, Romans, Georgians, Anatolian Seljuks and Ottomans. As a result, Anatolia is one of archeologically richest places on earth."

    Quote
    All right. So why IS a Turk a "native" of Anatolia?


    You have yet to provide evidence, third request now. Your tactic of asserting facts and getting away with it doesn't work here buddy. Roll Eyes


    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #486 - November 15, 2011, 09:14 AM

    ^@deusvult. That's right, a person who follows the ideology of Islam. Reduced to semantic nitpicking now are we?


    If the ideology of Islam is what you say it is, then most Muslims are not Muslims. They can ONLY be Muslims if they have variance in ideology.

    Your desperate efforts to be a bigot will fail, bigotry always fails. Afro

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #487 - November 15, 2011, 09:32 AM

    DH

    What does this Muslim believe about suicide bombings?



    It's pictorial evidence of a Muslim, this is valid evidence to you isn't it?

    By the way, I went to Eid prayer with some friends, I don't believe in God. What would you be able to tell from a picture of ME praying, and my opinions about about ANYTHING?

    NOTHING.

    "Salah (Arabic: صلاة‎ ṣalāh, genitive: ṣalāt; pl. صلوات ṣalawāt) is the practice of formal prayer in Islam. Its supreme importance for Muslims is indicated by its status as one of the Five Pillars of Sunni Islam, of the Ten Practices of the Religion of Twelver Islam and of the 7 pillars of Musta‘lī Ismailis. Salah is a ritual prayer, having prescribed conditions, a prescribed procedure, and prescribed times. Performing salah is obligatory, with a few dispensations for those for whom it would be difficult. For those whom it is difficult they can perform Salah in a way which is suitable for them. They can perform Salah while sitting down (in case of illness or any situation like traveling in a vehicle, on a horse, etc), while lying down (in case of illness) and even with indication. To perform valid Salah, Muslims must be in a state of ritual purity, which is mainly achieved by ritual ablution according to prescribed procedures. The place of prayer should be clean. In a few cases where blood is leaving the body, Salah is forbidden until a later time. Women are not allowed to prayer during their menses nor for a period after childbirth, and this gave rise to a famous quote of Muhammad, that "Women are deficient in intellect ('aql) and religion (deen)"[1][2] because in matters of shariah (Islamic law) the witness of two women is equal to one man in matters of property, but completely unaccepted in criminal matters, and the aforementioned hindrance in ability to pray for a certain time each month.[3][4][5]

    Salah consists of the repetition of two or more units of a prescribed sequence of actions and words. One complete sequence is known as a raka'ah (pl. raka'āt). The number of obligatory (fard) raka'āt varies according to the time of day or other circumstances (such as Friday congregational prayers). The minimal, obligatory raka'at may be supplemented with acts which are optional but are considered meritorious. There are also dispensations from some or all of the prescribed actions for those who are physically unable to complete them. The prescribed words of the prayer remain obligatory.


    After Salah, often duas and munazats are held. Ceratin hadiths recommends reciting Ayatul Kursi, Al-Falaq, Al-Nas , etc. after Salah for protection.[citation needed]

    For Sunnis and Musta'lids, salah is prescribed at five periods of the day, which are measured according to the movement of the sun. These are: near dawn (fajr), just after noon (dhuhr), in the afternoon (asr), just after sunset (maghrib) and around nightfall (isha'a). Under some circumstances prayers can be shortened or combined (according to prescribed procedures). In case a prayer is skipped, it must be made up later. Shia doctrine permits two sets of these prayers to be performed in succession.[6][7] Sufis often perform dhikr after the conclusion of prayers."

    "The prayers (salat) practiced by one Muslim may differ from another's in minor details, which can affect the precise actions and words involved. Differences arise because of different interpretations of the Islamic legal sources by the different schools of law (madhhabs) in Sunni Islam, and by different legal traditions within Shi'ism. In the case of prayers these differences are generally minor, and do not necessarily cause dispute.[9] It is important to note the reason why Sunni Muslims have a basic agreement on the necessary part of the Prayer. Muslims believe that the Prophet Muhammad practiced, taught, and disseminated the worship ritual in the whole community of Muslims and made it part of their life. The practice has, therefore, been concurrently and perpetually practiced by the community in each of the generations. The authority for the basic forms of the prayers is neither the hadiths nor the Qur'an, but rather the consensus of Muslims.[10] Differences also occur due to optional (recommended rather than obligatory) articles of prayer procedure, for example which verses of the Qur'an to recite."

    Perhaps reading a basic wikipedia article will have saved you some embarassment DH, it confirms exactly what I said:

    1 - There is agreement on DOING prayer.

    2 - There is variation in it's expression.

    3 - There is variation in it's context.

    4 - The methodology does not come from the Qur'an.

    Now, go read a LOT more, before making a fool of yourself. clap



    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #488 - November 15, 2011, 09:58 AM

    http://islam.about.com/cs/currentevents/a/suicide_bomb.htm

    "Harming innocent bystanders, even in times of war, was forbidden by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).  This includes women, children, noncombatant bystanders, and even trees and crops.  Nothing is to be harmed unless the person or thing is actively engaged in an assault against Muslims."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Jammal

    "Jules was born as Jules Yusuf Jamal in al-mishtaya Arabic: المشتاية‎,[1] into an Orthodox Christian family. Al mishtaya is located around Homs and Latakia. Jules father was part of the Syrian resistance against France. Jammal attended University of Damascus starting in 1950, in 1953, he was part of a Syrian team attending the Egpytian Naval Academy. The French ship Jeanne D'arc was preparing to bombard the Egyptian city of Port Said, it contained 2,055 soldiers and 88 officers. Jamal volunteered to attack the ship on a suicide mission.

    Jules was a military officer in the Syrian navy. He volunteered in the name of Arab nationalism to launch a suicide bomb attack against the western forces in the 1956 Suez Crisis. Israel, Britain, and France had invaded Egypt to seize the Suez canal. Jules activated a suicide bomb while ramming his boat into the Jeanne D’Arc, which was a French ship, exploding himself and bringing down the French ship with him.[4]"

    DH, your worldview is as deluded as a fundamentalists' worldview.

    For me, a Muslim can be against killing anyone, and a Christian can be a suicide bomber, BECAUSE I take people on an individual basis. Not on ideology. Ideologies only exist in people. And one can have multiple identifies, multiple sources, conflicting and contradictory, where they live, circumstances, education, wealth, psychology, culture, illness, status and age ALL PLAY A ROLE in who a person is, and what they do, and even then, YOU CAN'T be certain. But by all means, have your fun, in your deluded world where robots read a book and do what you think it says. Cunt.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #489 - November 15, 2011, 12:04 PM

    Quote
    But by all means, have your fun, in your deluded world where robots read a book and do what you think it says.


    Direct causal determinism between Islamic scriptures and sunnah and the individual believer is an idea propounded not just by DH and his ilk, but by a wide spectrum of Muslims, Islamic institutions, tradition, theology, Ummah identity politics, extremists and Islamists.

    I think its healthy to debunk this idea wherever it surfaces. In many ways, doing so with DH and others is the easy part. To address the generation and perpetuation of this idea from within Islam can be tricky, for various reasons - there is even a degree of denial about it.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #490 - November 15, 2011, 12:50 PM

    Quote
    It means that if ALL Muslims are literalists it means that MOST Muslims are NOT "non-literalists". WHATEVER THAT MEANS I might add. In fact it is MEANINGLESS. "Islam" means submitting to the will of Allah which means LITERALLY DOING and NOT DOING whatever Allah says they should do and not do. My earlier reference to a "beer swilling, prayer avoiding etc" "variety" was a sarcastic rejection of the whole concept of "non-literal Islam". How does one "non-literally interpret" "don't drink alcohol" so that it means "Go ahead....destroy your liver"?


    Isn't it funny when you speak to a Muslim/Christian/Jew, no matter what they believe about anything, their God never seems to disagree with them.

    'Cognitive dissonance is a discomfort caused by holding conflicting ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance. They do this by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and actions.[1] Dissonance is also reduced by justifying, blaming, and denying.'

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #491 - November 15, 2011, 01:13 PM

    I'm not saying Islam is anything.


    I have (unfortunately) knowledge of the Qur'an wherein the "final will of Allah" is (allegedly) expressed. "Submission" to that "divine will" is the ONLY definition of "Islam" that we have.


    Quote
    Find me a person who calls themselves Muslim and states that prayer is not obligatory, then I will retract my statement to "most Muslims think prayer is obligatory".


    I am not arguing with your statement; no more than I see any reason NOT to suppose that most Muslims regard the command to "pitilessly" flog adulterers as meaning just what it says - even if most of them have never flogged an adulterer in their lives. To repeat, that a Muslim does not personally carry out a command of Allah does not automatically qualify them as a "non-literalist" as I understand billy uses the term.

    Quote
    DUH! It's not in the Qur'an, you've just said "extra-Qur'anic sources", thus, agreeing that it's not the Qur'an.


    Pointing to the fact that the standard Muslim prayers are explicitly detailed in the hadith does NOT equal an admission that they are not contained in the Qu'ran albeit scattered among a number of separate verses. If you insist on me  trawling through that wretched book to extract them for your perusal I will do so. Alternatively, as you have already above referred to the hadith to support your claim that modern warfare is unIslamic because it would involve people getting burned - according to you in contravention of the hadith where Ali burns apostates and is taken to task for doing so - then you should be willing to save me the trouble and accept the hadith LITERAL stipulations on prayer which fully correspond to standard Islamic practice.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #492 - November 15, 2011, 01:19 PM

    If the ideology of Islam is what you say it is, then most Muslims are not Muslims. They can ONLY be Muslims if they have variance in ideology.

    Your desperate efforts to be a bigot will fail, bigotry always fails. Afro


    Ding! thanks Post Human

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity

    They even have a term for it

    Muslims and Islam are not the same thing

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #493 - November 15, 2011, 01:37 PM

    Quote from: posthuman
    If Google Images is your level of scholarship then I'm debating with an imbecile.


    If there was "varying" modes of Islamic prayer as you claim then at least ONE example should show up on this vast data base. Can YOU provide an example of salat that differs from what appears to be universal?

    Quote
    It's real to the suicide bomber, it's a heresy to the rest.


    You appear to be claiming to know the views of "the rest of the Muslims". On what basis?

    Quote
    I don't claim to know Real Islam, you do. I don't believe such a thing exists. You do.


    On the basis that "Islam" means "submission to the will of Allah".

    Quote
    "While all Buddhist traditions seem to accept some notion of rebirth, there is no unified view about precisely how events unfold after the moment of death."


    We're not talking about buddhists

    Quote
    I'm not interested in what's reasonable to assume, I judge people by their actions not their statements about what they claim to believe.


    So you don't judge most BNP members to be racists?

    Quote
    It means what you want it to mean. For me, the command to not kill yourself does not mean "kill yourself".


    The trouble is, that verse is also rendered into english as "do not kill each other" which suggests that this is how it is understood in the original Arabic - which is a quite different meaning. Furthermore, as you rightly say, some Qur'anic verses are "contextual" - although not in the way I imagine you would have it. In the "context" of 8:60 & 9:111 "do not kill yourself" could not plausibly rule out JIHAD ATTACKS on the "enemies of Allah" which bring with them a 100% certainty of death to the attacker. The primary aim of the 9-11(1) attackers was NOT to commit suicide but to maximize the death and destruction of the "enemies of Allah" and their abodes.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #494 - November 15, 2011, 01:40 PM

    Quote
    I have (unfortunately) knowledge of the Qur'an wherein the "final will of Allah" is (allegedly) expressed. "Submission" to that "divine will" is the ONLY definition of "Islam" that we have.


    Really? I have a knowledge of an Arabic work of poetry dating from the pre-Kufic era, a collection of poems and dictates from what is thought to be contemporary Arab sources, possibly Muhammad. I've read it in Arabic too. Several times

    Quote
    I am not arguing with your statement; no more than I see any reason NOT to suppose that most Muslims regard the command to "pitilessly" flog adulterers as meaning just what it says - even if most of them have never flogged an adulterer in their lives. To repeat, that a Muslim does not personally carry out a command of Allah does not automatically qualify them as a "non-literalist" as I understand billy uses the term.


    So? The New Testament says turn the other cheek. You've pointed out the Qur'an says flog adulterers, why does Iran stone them to death? They're not literalists I suppose. In fact, one would dare say that it would be better if they were literalists. Or, that it really doesn't matter. People do what they do.

    Quote
    Pointing to the fact that the standard Muslim prayers are explicitly detailed in the hadith does NOT equal an admission that they are not contained in the Qu'ran albeit scattered among a number of separate verses. If you insist on me  trawling through that wretched book to extract them for your perusal I will do so. Alternatively, as you have already above referred to the hadith to support your claim that modern warfare is unIslamic because it would involve people getting burned - according to you in contravention of the hadith where Ali burns apostates and is taken to task for doing so - then you should be willing to save me the trouble and accept the hadith LITERAL stipulations on prayer which fully correspond to standard Islamic practice.


    Failing to distinguish between Qur'an and Hadeeth gets you a giant douche award.

    You seem to know a lot about salah considering you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT TO SAY, HOW TO SAY IT, WHEN AND HOW TO MOVE.

    You're telling someone who knows it in explicit detail, that they know LESS than you.

    You sir, are hilarious.



    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #495 - November 15, 2011, 01:44 PM

    Quote
    The trouble is, that verse is also rendered into english as "do not kill each other" which suggests that this is how it is understood in the original Arabic - which is a quite different meaning. Furthermore, as you rightly say, some Qur'anic verses are "contextual" - although not in the way I imagine you would have it. In the "context" of 8:60 & 9:111 "do not kill yourself" could not plausibly rule out JIHAD ATTACKS on the "enemies of Allah" which bring with them a 100% certainty of death to the attacker. The primary aim of the 9-11(1) attackers was NOT to commit suicide but to maximize the death and destruction of the "enemies of Allah" and their abodes.


    I'll ignore the rest of your post as it's mostly red herring material. There is consensus that the BNP are racists. If some aren't, then they..aren't. Nothing more to say really. If a BNP member is not racist, I'm not going to say they are. Simple really.

    Now, are suicide bombs in Karachi, Islamabad, Mosul, Baghdad...are they anti-Islamic?


    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #496 - November 15, 2011, 01:50 PM

    If there was "varying" modes of Islamic prayer as you claim then at least ONE example should show up on this vast data base. Can YOU provide an example of salat that differs from what appears to be universal?


    Did you not read this?

    "The prayers (salat) practiced by one Muslim may differ from another's in minor details, which can affect the precise actions and words involved. Differences arise because of different interpretations of the Islamic legal sources by the different schools of law (madhhabs) in Sunni Islam, and by different legal traditions within Shi'ism. In the case of prayers these differences are generally minor, and do not necessarily cause dispute.[9] It is important to note the reason why Sunni Muslims have a basic agreement on the necessary part of the Prayer. Muslims believe that the Prophet Muhammad practiced, taught, and disseminated the worship ritual in the whole community of Muslims and made it part of their life. The practice has, therefore, been concurrently and perpetually practiced by the community in each of the generations. The authority for the basic forms of the prayers is neither the hadiths nor the Qur'an, but rather the consensus of Muslims.[10] Differences also occur due to optional (recommended rather than obligatory) articles of prayer procedure, for example which verses of the Qur'an to recite."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salah#Differences_in_practice

    You do realise that CONGREGATIONAL PRAYERS kind of loses it's appeal if there is too much variance.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    You're basically asking why does Tango dancing look the same everywhere, and that there is no variance. Coming from someone who doesn't know Tango, means that person is a fucktard.

    Now enough with the meaningless drivel, and get to some actual point or issue, preferrably a subject you do know something about. This isn't one of those subjects. Cry


    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #497 - November 15, 2011, 02:00 PM

    Surah 38:75 He said: O Iblis! What hindereth thee from falling prostrate before that which I have created with both My hands? Art thou too proud or art thou of the high exalted?"

    Muslims don't believe Allah has hands, therefore Muslims are not literalists.

    Some brilliant DH logic for you. Afro


    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #498 - November 16, 2011, 06:59 AM

    Quote from: post human
    So? The New Testament says turn the other cheek.


    And I am sure down the ages plenty of self-proclaimed followers of Jesus have totally ignored that commandment. Ignoring something, however, is not the same as interpreting it "non-literally".

    Quote
    You've pointed out the Qur'an says flog adulterers, why does Iran stone them to death?


    Because it is in the traditions which the Iranians interpret LITERALLY. I have already pointed out that you have already invoked extra-koranic sources to   support a particular argument, so any attempt by you to now confine the argument to the Koran alone will display dishonesty, as well as desperation, on your part.

    Quote
    They're not literalists I suppose.


    They are literalists in their understanding and application of hadith.

    Quote
    Failing to distinguish between Qur'an and Hadeeth gets you a giant douche award.


    The Qur'an is the alleged divine word and the traditions is the alleged record of the words and deeds of the prophet who the Koran states is the best example for Muslims to emulate. To repeat yet again, YOU brought the hadith into the discussion and thereby set a precedent for me to refer to them in support of MY arguments.

    Quote
    You seem to know a lot about salah considering you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT TO SAY, HOW TO SAY IT, WHEN AND HOW TO MOVE.


    It's in the hadith.

    Quote
    You're telling someone who knows it in explicit detail, that they know LESS than you.


    Please give me the benefit of your superior knowledge.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #499 - November 16, 2011, 07:13 AM

    Quote from: post human
    Did you not read this?


    No

    Quote
    "The prayers (salat) practiced by one Muslim may differ from another's in minor details, which can affect the precise actions and words involved.


    Having minor variations in the practice of something is not the same as "non-literally" interpreting it. There is clearly a number of differences in the application of the Islamic dress code around the world.

    Quote
    The authority for the basic forms of the prayers is neither the hadiths nor the Qur'an,

     

    The mode of Islamic prayer IS laid out in the hadith as well a the Qur'an. So the person who makes this claim is clearly the "Fucktard". BTW if my use of google images makes me an "imbecile", what shall we say of your appeal to wikipedia as the ultimate and unquestionable authority on Things Islamic?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #500 - November 16, 2011, 08:57 AM

    Quote
    Having minor variations in the practice of something is not the same as "non-literally" interpreting it. There is clearly a number of differences in the application of the Islamic dress code around the world.


    Trapped!

    Now tell me, what is REAL ISLAM? Real Islam, singular term...does not allow for variance. You've now admitted there is variance, so you have a HUGE problem now.

    PS: Comparing Wikipedia to an image gallery, gets you a second giant douche award. First you said Salah is in the Qur'an, then after you failed, you said it's in Hadeeth. You are lazy, and cite nothing.

    Oh still waiting for your evidence on your claims about Turkey.

    You may forget your failures, I don't.



    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #501 - November 16, 2011, 09:03 AM

    Quote
    And I am sure down the ages plenty of self-proclaimed followers of Jesus have totally ignored that commandment. Ignoring something, however, is not the same as interpreting it "non-literally".


    As you've said earlier that all this talk is meaningless, why continue to defend moot points?

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #502 - November 16, 2011, 09:04 AM

    Quote
    Because it is in the traditions which the Iranians interpret LITERALLY. I have already pointed out that you have already invoked extra-koranic sources to   support a particular argument, so any attempt by you to now confine the argument to the Koran alone will display dishonesty, as well as desperation, on your part."


    So what is REAL ISLAM? Stoning? Or flogging?

    Quote
    The Qur'an is the alleged divine word and the traditions is the alleged record of the words and deeds of the prophet who the Koran states is the best example for Muslims to emulate. To repeat yet again, YOU brought the hadith into the discussion and thereby set a precedent for me to refer to them in support of MY arguments.


    The question is not what sources are being used, the question is how YOU can claim to know REAL ISLAM based on those sources which CONSTANTLY CONTRADICT THEMSELVES.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #503 - November 16, 2011, 09:10 AM

    Quote
    Please give me the benefit of your superior knowledge.


    There is no REAL ISLAM. There are real people, who use the word Muslim. There is no Vatican to authorise REAL ISLAM, and you have certainly not got a shred of authority to do so either. Given your weak and self-confessed meaningless arguments.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #504 - November 16, 2011, 09:12 AM

    There are some people here, who call themselves ex-Muslims, who according to your defintions, NEVER WERE Muslims, so you should apply the same criteria to them calling themselves "ex-Muslim". But you don't, for obvious reasons, anything is better than a Muslim after all, isn't it? Cunt.

    Quote
    So far from being a command that would, as you allege, preclude Muslims engaging in suicide bombings it is in fact properly understood as a command not to KILL OTHER MUSLIMS. That would perhaps explain why those who "kill and are killed in the way of Allah" by flying jetliners into skyscrapers are not in theslightest bit deterred by this verse.


    As you know REAL ISLAM, you should easily be able to tell me whether suicide bombs in Karachi are anti-Islamic.

    Simple question, it's either TRUE or FALSE. Ignoring it, doesn't make it go away. Smiley

    Oh, and by the way, a partial list of Muslim victims of 9/11.

    Samad Afridi
    Ashraf Ahmad
    Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
    Umar Ahmad
    Azam Ahsan
    Ahmed Ali
    Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
    Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
    Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
    Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
    Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
    Jamal Legesse Desantis
    Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
    SaleemUllah Farooqi
    Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
    Osman Gani
    Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
    Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
    Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
    Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
    Nabid Hossain
    Shahzad Hussain
    Talat Hussain
    Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
    Yasmeen Jamal
    Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
    Arslan Khan Khakwani
    Asim Khan
    Ataullah Khan
    Ayub Khan
    Qasim Ali Khan
    Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
    Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
    Yasmeen Khan
    Zahida Khan
    Badruddin Lakhani
    Omar Malick
    Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
    Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
    Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
    Raza Mujtaba
    Omar Namoos
    Mujeb Qazi
    Tarranum Rahim
    Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
    Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
    Naveed Rehman
    Yusuf Saad
    Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
    Shoman Samad
    Asad Samir
    Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
    Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
    Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust)
    Jamil Swaati
    Sanober Syed
    Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
    Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
    W. Wahid
    Source(s):
    http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm

    Quote
    it is in fact properly understood as a command not to KILL OTHER MUSLIMS.


    Then, according to your definition of REAL ISLAM, 9/11 was anti-Islamic.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #505 - November 16, 2011, 11:34 AM

    ^@deusvult. That's right, a person who follows the ideology of Islam. Reduced to semantic nitpicking now are we?


    Jew is someone who follows Judaism, as laid out in the Old Testament, their Holy Book.

    As such, Jews don't exist in real life.

     thnkyu

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #506 - November 16, 2011, 12:50 PM

    There is no REAL ISLAM. There are real people, who use the word Muslim. There is no Vatican to authorise REAL ISLAM


    Most practising Muslims do believe there is a 'REAL', fixed, immutable, eternal, essence Islam contained in the Quran, the sahih Hadith, and the sunnah.

    You can object to DH because he asserts a direct causal determinism between 'Islam' and 'Muslim' in all variant contexts and not allowing for personal conscience and levels of belief and practise and attitude. I object to that myself.

    There's no way to avoid critiquing the same direct causal determinism generated inside Islamic theology and attitude, relating to Quran, sahih hadith and sunnah when doing that, though.






    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #507 - November 16, 2011, 01:27 PM

    Well everything has some kind of essence, otherwise it's nothing. The essence of Islam is worshipping God.

    DH is claiming things like "suicide bombs are valid in Islam"

    That's not really talking about the essence of Islam now is it?

    One could say the essence of worshipping God is an awe of the universe. The essence of this awe, is ignorance. The essence of ignorance is lacking insight, the essence of that is DH.


    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #508 - November 16, 2011, 04:23 PM

    Quote
    Well everything has some kind of essence, otherwise it's nothing.

     

    Indeed.


    Quote
    The essence of Islam is worshipping God.



    Submitting to Allah is part of it. The point is, to practising Muslims, a singular aspect about Islam (especially in contrast to other religions / non religions) is its fixedness, immutable and 'real' essence, embodied in the literal recitation and word of Allah in scripture, plus ancillary hadith and sunnah.

    That is part of the problem.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #509 - November 16, 2011, 05:27 PM

    What's a 'practising Muslim'?


    Before Jesus was, I AM.
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