Are perceptions just illusions

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- serpentofeden
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Are perceptions just illusions
OP - November 14, 2011, 09:02 PM

I didn;t know where to post this so i'll just put it here. Just some of my thoughts.

Where ever i go, who ever i meet i'll have a perception of that person based on what he/she says, there body language, behaviour etc. My interpretation of anyone will be based on these attributes, and the same goes for pretty much everyone else. But no one will ever have MY exact perception, or my ‘world’. Reality as we know it exists in our own individual bubble, no one else’s ‘reality’ is going to be identical to mine.....so in that sense how can reality be any more than an illusion of an individual's mind?

IMHO what we consider to be real and going on around us is, an illusion created by our perceptions. Each person will perceive reality through there ‘bubble’ differently depending on circumstances. Everything we do and what happens to us on a daily basis is going to have some reaction to our ‘bubble’. We are soo EASILY influenced by external sources, on so many different levels (most of which is unconsciously) , which to me shows just how fragile, and incoherent our perception of reality actually is. It's just the brain's interpretations of the signals being sent fromthe 5 senses. For example, I'm staring at my computer right now and typing on this keyboard but it's only a keyboard because somebody said it was.

Which poises the question, if the illusion that is reality differentiates on such a vast scale, who’s to say that ones perception is wrong and another’s is right? everybody has a different subjective version of the truth, so what really is the truth? no 2 people/groups have the same exact version of the truth, yet it's particularly common among religionists to get conceited about their version of the truth and patronise non members.

I don't think, there cant be a consistent set of rules for what's morally acceptable, since everyone’s perception of there own truth varies so much, sure you might find someone on a similar wavelength to yourself, but no ones perception will ever be 100 percent identical. IMHO identifiying right from wrong is very difficult to establish. Everyone is different and the way we deal with life and situations is a testament our personal strengths.

Whose to say anyone's truth is more truthful then someone else's is ? IMHO really there is not truth beyond what's socially-accepted in different societies.

The majority of people also assume or consider there perceptions or how they see the world to be superior to others, so they become know it alls and try to cast their perception onto other people. Its a beautiful and vast world we live in but it is also very petty and lame. The sad thing is that most people think they know it all based on personal feelings when in reality it's just a infinitesimal of what is out 'there'.

To really discover discover the truth and see the bare facts,one would have to remove the ego, the problem is human nature is scared of the unknown, people prefer to be lazy and just believe what other people tell them to people. Society programs us to be programmed by the programmers.
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Re: Are perceptions just illusions
Reply #1 - November 14, 2011, 09:52 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-dependent_realism

quotes from the book "The Grand Design" (Stephen Hawking):

"[Model-dependent realism] is based on the idea that our brains interpret the input from our sensory organs by making a model of the world. When such a model is successful at explaining events, we tend to attribute to it, and to the elements and concepts that constitute it, the quality of reality or absolute truth."

"There is no picture- or theory-independent concept of reality. Instead we will adopt a view that we will call model-dependent realism: the idea that a physical theory or world picture is a model (generally of a mathematical nature) and a set of rules that connect the elements of the model to observations. This provides a framework with which to interpret modern science."

"According to model-dependent realism, it is pointless to ask whether a model is real, only whether it agrees with observation. If there are two models that both agree with observation ... then one cannot say that one is more real than another. One can use whichever model is more convenient in the situation under consideration."

"It might be that to describe the universe, we have to employ different theories in different situations. Each theory may have its own version of reality, but according to model-dependent realism, that is acceptable so long as the theories agree in their predictions whenever they overlap, that is, whenever they can both be applied."

"According to the idea of model-dependent realism ..., our brains interpret the input from our sensory organs by making a model of the outside world. We form mental concepts of our home, trees, other people, the electricity that flows from wall sockets, atoms, molecules, and other universes. These mental concepts are the only reality we can know. There is no model-independent test of reality. It follows that a well-constructed model creates a reality of its own."

In other words, our model is only as good as our ability to observe events. This is an extension of one of the basic organising principles of modern science, that a model is only as good as its ability to predict events. Hawking associated himself with the commonly assumed principle of 'model dependent realism' by giving it that name.

I am reading this book but it's in French and the best way to illustrate the point to you is by copy-pasting from Wikipedia, at least it's in english
You might be interested in reading the book, it is very interesting.
- strangestdude
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Re: Are perceptions just illusions
Reply #2 - November 15, 2011, 02:51 PM

Thanks for posting the above, I'm gonna get that book now. That's pretty much the conclusion I've come to, if I understand it correctly.

Michael Shermer attaches the term 'provisional' to the tenets of his personal philosophy; provisional naturalism, provisional libertarianism, etc. It really resonated with me when I read it - I like the 'provisional model' based approach.

Here's an article by Michael Shermer on model-dependant realism.

http://www.bigquestionsonline.com/columns/michael-shermer/stephen-hawking%E2%80%99s-radical-philosophy-of-science

Quote
As a historian of science, I conclude that, in fact, nearly all scientific models — indeed, belief models of all sorts — can be parsed in such a manner and, in time, found to be better or worse than other models. In the long run, we discard some models and keep others based on their validity, reliability, predictability, and perceived match to reality. Yes, even though there is no Archimedean point outside of our brains, I believe there is a real reality, and that we can come close to knowing it through the lens of science — despite the indelible imperfection of our brains, our models, and our theories.

I basically left Islam because the 'model of naturalism and the philosophy of science' contained more predictability and reliability than the 'model of Islam'. My mind became more inclined towards naturalism, once the 2 models were contrasted via enquiry and contemplation.

I'm waiting for z10 and prince to jump in to get this thread going .

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Are perceptions just illusions
Reply #3 - November 16, 2011, 05:06 AM

I HATE this school of philosophy and never could understand where it comes from.
Thought experiment:
Ask subjects what the color of a red ball is.
Observation:
Those sane who posses the sense of sight all agree it's red.
Conclusion:
The ball really is red.

-But...
-Red.

-What if...
-Red.

-Do we all...
-RED! Shut it!

-Maybe it's not the same red.
-Sigh. Whatever we saw and understand and agree on as red, we observed in the ball...
Therefore the ball is real and its color is real.

-What makes you sure we did not all imagine the same thing?
-Grrr!

-How do you differentiate between what is real and what is an illusion?
-Real: Something that IS.
Illusion: Something that ISN'T.

Okay, I will stop this nonsense now.

I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
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Re: Are perceptions just illusions
Reply #4 - November 16, 2011, 08:53 AM

If unsure whether perception is an illusion, go and stand in the middle of the freeway and wait for a large truck. You will then have an opportunity to decide if the truck is an illusion or not. I would suggest deciding quickly.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
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Re: Are perceptions just illusions
Reply #5 - November 16, 2011, 09:33 AM

stupid thread is stupid.
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Re: Are perceptions just illusions
Reply #6 - November 16, 2011, 09:37 AM

Support or retract.

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Re: Are perceptions just illusions
Reply #7 - November 16, 2011, 10:25 AM

Always wanted to use this one

I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
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Re: Are perceptions just illusions
Reply #8 - November 16, 2011, 10:29 AM

Then again... they will just tell you the truck is an illusion... and if they make it after it hits them... there is no proof that this pain is not an illusion...
I know people like this irl.
There must be some kind of mental disorder of reality paranoia: Everything is an illusion maaaaaaan! Nothing exists!!

I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
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Re: Are perceptions just illusions
Reply #9 - November 16, 2011, 10:33 AM

As far as I'm concerned, if something is real enough to kill me, then it's real enough to be called real. If some other idiots want to argue the point, they can bring their own body bags and I'll bring my own popcorn.

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Re: Are perceptions just illusions
Reply #10 - November 16, 2011, 10:58 AM

I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
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Re: Are perceptions just illusions
Reply #11 - November 17, 2011, 03:17 PM

ever heard about people being mere holograms?
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Re: Are perceptions just illusions
Reply #12 - November 17, 2011, 05:15 PM

Quote
Where ever i go, who ever i meet i'll have a perception of that person based on what he/she says, there body language, behaviour etc. My interpretation of anyone will be based on these attributes, and the same goes for pretty much everyone else. But no one will ever have MY exact perception, or my ‘world’. Reality as we know it exists in our own individual bubble, no one else’s ‘reality’ is going to be identical to mine.....so in that sense how can reality be any more than an illusion of an individual's mind?

You mention things that can be described as forms of language (speech and body language). Presumably each person's differing reality will thus have its own private language by which it articulates its reality.

Here things run into difficulties, though.

Imagine you use a private language of such an order. One day you write down the letter "P" when you have a particular perception or sensation. You intend to record as a diary a series of following instances of this perception or sensation in the same manner: every time you perceive or feel "P" you will record it as "P" in your diary.

Here's the rub: What guarantee do you have that the succeeding times you write "P" it will be for the same perception and sensation as the last time? Because you lack any sort of external-to-yourself datum or measure against which you can determine the correctness of your decision that the perception or sensation you now have is the same sort as you previously had.

How do we know when we have used a word correctly? When its use in that particular context is held to be correct by other users of the same language. Thus we cannot know, even privately, anything about ourselves without reference to and articulation in a public language. That which is beyond language is properly meaningless.

More broadly, the problem with solipsism is that it fails to acknowledge that our notions of our own self are themselves terms made in a communal and not individual use, language - and so the means by which we describe ourselves - depends for judgments about the correctness of use in the existence of a community of language users. And the meanings we attach to ourselves, others and the world are given in the uses made of those terms by that community of language users.

We are not alone; although sometimes we long to be. Hell, then under those conditions. is certainly other people.

Once all struggle is grasped, miracles are possible.

Similar bollox and hijabi fashion tips, here: http://nilesider.wordpress.com/
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Re: Are perceptions just illusions
Reply #13 - April 08, 2012, 05:57 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 16, 2011, 08:53 AM
If unsure whether perception is an illusion, go and stand in the middle of the freeway and wait for a large truck. You will then have an opportunity to decide if the truck is an illusion or not. I would suggest deciding quickly.

Quote from: osmanthus on November 16, 2011, 10:33 AM
As far as I'm concerned, if something is real enough to kill me, then it's real enough to be called real. If some other idiots want to argue the point, they can bring their own body bags and I'll bring my own popcorn.

"I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

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Re: Are perceptions just illusions
Reply #14 - April 08, 2012, 06:10 PM

Quote from: Abu Faris on November 17, 2011, 05:15 PM
You mention things that can be described as forms of language (speech and body language). Presumably each person's differing reality will thus have its own private language by which it articulates its reality.

Here things run into difficulties, though.

Imagine you use a private language of such an order. One day you write down the letter "P" when you have a particular perception or sensation. You intend to record as a diary a series of following instances of this perception or sensation in the same manner: every time you perceive or feel "P" you will record it as "P" in your diary.

Here's the rub: What guarantee do you have that the succeeding times you write "P" it will be for the same perception and sensation as the last time? Because you lack any sort of external-to-yourself datum or measure against which you can determine the correctness of your decision that the perception or sensation you now have is the same sort as you previously had.

How do we know when we have used a word correctly? When its use in that particular context is held to be correct by other users of the same language. Thus we cannot know, even privately, anything about ourselves without reference to and articulation in a public language. That which is beyond language is properly meaningless.

More broadly, the problem with solipsism is that it fails to acknowledge that our notions of our own self are themselves terms made in a communal and not individual use, language - and so the means by which we describe ourselves - depends for judgments about the correctness of use in the existence of a community of language users. And the meanings we attach to ourselves, others and the world are given in the uses made of those terms by that community of language users.

We are not alone; although sometimes we long to be. Hell, then under those conditions. is certainly other people.

Someone's been reading Wittgenstein

Quote from: godless on November 17, 2011, 03:17 PM
ever heard about people being mere holograms?

Lol, you hear this often. zomg what if everything is a hologram/illusion? Well how is that even a description, you may as well say nothing is a hologram.
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Re: Are perceptions just illusions
Reply #15 - April 08, 2012, 10:48 PM

i think illusory is a strong word. It is certainly the case that all of our perceptions are always questionable and there is nothing we can know as it is but then the idea of 'illusion' implies that we are almost being tricked by reality. I don't think reality is a demon trying to fool me, rather, perhaps, it is just so rich and varied that it is difficult for me to ever know fully what an experience feels like for another, or even what such an experience can mean to another. This of course means going through life without certainty of fact but it also means knowing that I have such a unique window on reality that nothing or nobody will ever experience what I will.

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
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Are perceptions just illusions
Reply #16 - February 15, 2013, 03:34 PM

It is definetely not an illusion. I have seen people use this idea many times, but it is obviously just a play of words. Reality is reality. Perceptions of reality are different, but at the end of the day, a car is a car, and a computer is a computer.
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