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 Topic: Egypt : nudity against Islamism

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  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #120 - November 24, 2011, 01:34 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on November 24, 2011, 01:20 PM
    What?


    Nothing, just reading between the lines. Maybe things that arern't there.

    Quote
    Anyone willingly disregarding the greater injustices against women - the suppression and oppression of women, the segregation, the dehumanisation, the physical and psychological coercion, and the abuse and violence - from which acts of defiance like this are born is not only doing nobody any favours, but also laying down unnecessary conversational speed bumps.

    This personal act of protest is about a wider sense of those injustices. It is you who are over-simplifying this, if anyone, by not making reasonable distinctions between individual acts of nudity and maintaining that they are all equal for the sake of your argument regardless of place, circumstances, social and moral climate, age, etc.


    The level in which you mistook my point suggests something else.

    It is not a question of her protesting those things, it's why NUDE is a weapon? Nude protests are a global thing. Her cause is not the issue, I'm obviously FOR her cause, but the cause of anything is not the method. We don't defend walking when we march for causes. As an analogy, a similar question would be to ask for an explanation on the origins of marching. And even more interestingly, why thousands marching, often has less effect han a nude protest.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #121 - November 24, 2011, 01:42 PM
    Quote from: billy on November 24, 2011, 01:30 PM
    I think he's saying that because as a man he has never experienced the injustices and humiliations that a woman experiences (which he suggests is caused by you having been a victim of domestic abuse) he is capable of bringing an objective insight to the discussion that you are not able to bring, whilst your experiences and insights are possibly biased and conditioned and in some ways less objective.



    Well, it doesn't take experience of abuse to recognise abuse. Though why we suddenly shifted to that is a mystery.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #122 - November 24, 2011, 01:48 PM
    It takes experience of abuse to mistake "why is nudism effective? why is it taboo?" for being dismissive of injustices against women.

    Seperate her cause from her method. The reason I cited the UK law as Egyptian law was to show that it's beyond the confines of a particular religion. The NUDE aspect, nothing else.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #123 - November 24, 2011, 01:50 PM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 01:34 PM
    It is not a question of her protesting those things, it's why NUDE is a weapon?

    Because it's an affront to the nude-phobic lunacy that is surrounding her.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #124 - November 24, 2011, 01:56 PM
    ^^^The reason why nude is a weapon is because it's effective.^^^

    Sometimes, "I don't know" is the right answer. Because I for one, don't quite know.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #125 - November 24, 2011, 01:58 PM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 01:48 PM
    It takes experience of abuse to mistake "why is nudism effective? why is it taboo?" for being dismissive of injustices against women.

    I'm telling you that both the act of defiance and reaction to it are symptomatic of the wider evils involved, but you don't like that, or ignore that, and maintain that your question isn't being addressed. I don't know how to take that as anything else other than dismissive. I don't know what you expected the answer to look like.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #126 - November 24, 2011, 02:00 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on November 24, 2011, 07:15 AM
    There is no purer liberation that expressing yourself as openly and honestly as you feel. To hell with the reaction. To hell with gender expectations. If she was to sugar coat her individual expression it would defeat the object and pollute the message. She shouldn't have to jump through hoops to be able to express herself. She shouldn't have to tailor herself to any given audience. She shouldn't have to have any greater intention in mind or advance any other movement or argument or political motive. The message is what it is: a human being expressing herself freely. Why must it be anything else?

    Your disapproval is on entirely the wrong side. You should be unequivocally supporting her, no question, no ifs, no buts. Ask yourself why you are unable to accept her for who she is.


    There are going to be opposing opinions on this...mine just happens to be the opposite of yours. Every society has certain cultural norms and if someone wants to completely go against them they should expect opposition.  And yes Im also speaking as a father..I would not want my daughters doing the same thing (or my sons if I had any) so naturally I am going to not support it. My sense of right and wrong in this particular issue draws the line here. My stance on this has nothing to do with Islam. I was a non muslim for 20 years and definatly not a hardliner for the years I was one.

    Someone here said she is rehumanizing sexuality. Not with pictures like that she isnt...it looks crude and cheap in that particular photo. There is nothing sexy about that picture in my opinion. That picture just says "here I am naked.. deal with it".  To not expect a backlash is stupid... if there was no backlash then wouldnt her action be pointless? I dont think she should be fined or arrested because this was on her blog and not as if it was public nudity. If it was public then yes there should be some consequences.

    To say we all MUST or should support her sounds like one of those absolute things religion likes to do. We all draw the line at certain points. Some of you are ok with posing nude.. hell some are even ok with their kids being porn actors as long as no one gets hurt. To say we all must agree with your viewpoint makes you sound like the rigid moral absolutists we left to come to places like this forum. I might think that some of the opinions and stances here are fucked up but I believe in your right to believe what you believe. To say that we must all agree and have the same stance on a particular issue makes you dogmatic in your own way.
    -------------------
    Believe in yourself
    -------------------
    Strike me down and I'll just become another nail in your coffin
    -------------------
    There's such a thing as sheep in wolfs clothing... religious fanatics
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #127 - November 24, 2011, 02:03 PM
    Quote from: billy on November 24, 2011, 01:55 PM
    Mate, take a step back from time to time.


    I did, which is why I think Islam is not the cause of nude taboos. Whatever the cause is, caused Islam. Take your own advice.
    ----

    Ishina, why is there a nude taboo in Egypt, and why anywhere else? -_-

    Can't simplify the question anymore than that.

    If there wasn't a nude taboo, she wouldn't have done it. If it wasn't a weapon, she wouldn't have used it. My question is why is it a weapon?

    GOSH - how am I gonna approach an answer if the question is mindboggling? parrot
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #128 - November 24, 2011, 02:07 PM
    Quote
    I did, which is why I think Islam is not the cause of nude taboos. Whatever the cause is, caused Islam. Take your own advice.


    Even useless and erroneous advice should be accepted politely before being sent to the dustbin, so in keeping with that protocol I thank you for it, because I am polite.

    Now, just to point out that I suggested you take a step back from what caused you to just receive a smite - it was again, offered in a spirit of polite and benign caution.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #129 - November 24, 2011, 02:11 PM
    Quote from: Pepe on November 24, 2011, 02:00 PM
    Someone here said she is rehumanizing sexuality. Not with pictures like that she isnt...it looks crude and cheap in that particular photo. There is nothing sexy about that picture in my opinion. That picture just says "here I am naked.. deal with it".

    I think you're confusing sexuality with sexy. There is a significant difference between rehumanising her sexuality and trying to be sexually appealing. The fact that you don't naturally see this difference I think is an element of why sexual phobias are a broader social illness to begin with.

    Quote from: Pepe on November 24, 2011, 02:00 PM
    To say we all MUST or should support her sounds like one of those absolute things religion likes to do. [...] To say that we must all agree and have the same stance on a particular issue makes you dogmatic in your own way.

    This is like the new Godwin's law. Whenever someone feels strongly about an issue or cause and is vocal about it, BOOM! "You're as bad as the fundamentalists!"
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #130 - November 24, 2011, 02:17 PM
    Quote
    The fact that you don't naturally see this difference I think is an element of why sexual phobias are a broader social illness to begin with.


    Finally Afro, some attempt to get to the core of it by someone. Rght or wrong I don't know, but it's progress nonetheless.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #131 - November 24, 2011, 02:26 PM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 02:03 PM
    I did, which is why I think Islam is not the cause of nude taboos. Whatever the cause is, caused Islam. Take your own advice.

    I don't think anyone here will argue that Islam isn't simply a convenient man-made instrument of abuse, contrived as a means to subdue and abuse people and support deeper-rooted pathology. I don't know why you feel the need to labour this point.

    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 02:03 PM
    Ishina, why is there a nude taboo in Egypt, and why anywhere else? -_-

    Can't simplify the question anymore than that.

    If there wasn't a nude taboo, she wouldn't have done it. If it wasn't a weapon, she wouldn't have used it. My question is why is it a weapon?

    Because it reveals the bogus authority of men, delicately preserved by keeping dissent in check, as weak and defiable, and ultimately defeatable. It is the authority figures and seats of power who are laid bare here, and they don't like it.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #132 - November 24, 2011, 02:40 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on November 24, 2011, 02:11 PM
    This is like the new Godwin's law. Whenever someone feels strongly about an issue or cause and is vocal about it, BOOM! "You're as bad as the fundamentalists!"


    Umm no. Im saying you can have your opinion and I can have mine. YOU are saying I must agree with your opinion and support this girl unequivocally. Thats the difference. Im not telling you how to think I am stating my stance. You however are telling me how to think.

    The the way "sexuality" is a very broad term and "sexiness" can be a big part of that definition: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sexuality
    -------------------
    Believe in yourself
    -------------------
    Strike me down and I'll just become another nail in your coffin
    -------------------
    There's such a thing as sheep in wolfs clothing... religious fanatics
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #133 - November 24, 2011, 02:43 PM
    Quote from: Pepe on November 24, 2011, 02:40 PM
    Umm no. Im saying you can have your opinion and I can have mine. YOU are saying I must agree with your opinion and support this girl unequivocally. Thats the difference. Im not telling you how to think I am stating my stance. You however are telling me how to think. .

    I'm sure you'll get over it.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #134 - November 24, 2011, 02:48 PM
    I was over it before it started. Im just saying your argument is flawed and I just proved it. Im sure you might come to terms with that.  Roll Eyes
    -------------------
    Believe in yourself
    -------------------
    Strike me down and I'll just become another nail in your coffin
    -------------------
    There's such a thing as sheep in wolfs clothing... religious fanatics
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #135 - November 24, 2011, 02:52 PM
    Cool. Now you can move on to the actual meat of my post and prove that wrong too.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #136 - November 24, 2011, 03:04 PM
    To be frank, I do not think I shall be suggesting that my Egyptian comrades get involved in this thread.

    Well done.
    Once all struggle is grasped, miracles are possible.

    Similar bollox and hijabi fashion tips, here: http://nilesider.wordpress.com/
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #137 - November 24, 2011, 03:23 PM
    Alright I'm splitting off posthuman's trolling and our reactions to it. Everyone, please get back to the thread topic.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #138 - November 24, 2011, 03:30 PM
    posthuman now has been granted Restricted status. Congrats Smiley His trolling and everything pertaining to that is now moved to his very own thread: megalomania.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #139 - November 24, 2011, 03:39 PM
    I tell you what, I will take off all my clothes and post my picture up, giving my real name and my address, in a Muslim-majority country with a strong Islamist presence... and then all you lot sitting thousands of kms away in states which at least have some notion of civil liberties can discuss whether it was a tactically wise thing for me to do.

    FFS.
    Once all struggle is grasped, miracles are possible.

    Similar bollox and hijabi fashion tips, here: http://nilesider.wordpress.com/
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #140 - November 24, 2011, 03:43 PM
    Abu Faris, I didn't realize that this was your blog. Good work Afro

    BTW, don't know if you're noticing, but some of us are very much supportive of Aliya’a.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #141 - November 24, 2011, 03:47 PM
    Quote from: Abu Faris on November 24, 2011, 03:39 PM
    I tell you what, I will take off all my clothes and post my picture up, giving my real name and my address, in a Muslim-majority country with a strong Islamist presence... and then all you lot sitting thousands of kms away in states which at least have some notion of civil liberties can discuss whether it was a tactically wise thing for me to do.

    FFS.


    I think overall people here are supportive of her and understanding of her actions. 
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #142 - November 24, 2011, 04:24 PM
    Quote from: Abu Faris on November 24, 2011, 03:39 PM
    I tell you what, I will take off all my clothes and post my picture up, giving my real name and my address, in a Muslim-majority country with a strong Islamist presence... and then all you lot sitting thousands of kms away in states which at least have some notion of civil liberties can discuss whether it was a tactically wise thing for me to do.

    FFS.

    Aliyaa has the unconditional support of almost the entire CEMB forums from what I can tell. There is only one or two people in this thread who are not completely supportive.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #143 - November 24, 2011, 04:48 PM
    I have signed to support her, and I leave the way she wants to protest to her. She is the one who can judge what's good for her.
    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #144 - November 24, 2011, 04:57 PM
    Quote from: Pepe on November 24, 2011, 02:40 PM
    The the way "sexuality" is a very broad term and "sexiness" can be a big part of that definition: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sexuality

    Oh, didn't notice you add this part.

    But anyway, I can't be bothered to try and unravel your bullshit sexual hangups.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #145 - November 24, 2011, 05:07 PM
    "bullshit sexual hang ups" because I don't happen to agree that posting naked pictures of yourself on the Internet is a good thing? A sense of decency is considered a sexual hang up? Fuck that.
    -------------------
    Believe in yourself
    -------------------
    Strike me down and I'll just become another nail in your coffin
    -------------------
    There's such a thing as sheep in wolfs clothing... religious fanatics
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #146 - November 24, 2011, 05:14 PM
    Don't get mad at me. It's not my fault you can't tell the difference between rehumanising her sexuality and trying to be sexually appealing.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #147 - November 24, 2011, 05:45 PM
    Eh, why people are criticising her method/object of expression when the point of the picture above all was to express... her right to express herself, I cannot fathom. It's like taking part in a gay pride march but telling everyone they should dress like most straight guys do. It was meant to be a nude photo, it's a nude photo. What is the fuss about. Huh?

    Nudity is frowned upon mostly because of children and residual (or fully fledged) religious/conservative sentiments. I can see an argument for the former, but not the latter. Which is probably why she posted her picture on a political blog and directed it at religious fundamentalists, rather than walking into a kindergarten and doing a strip-tease. I don't think she ever argued that women should be allowed to walk the public streets nude, so again I don't see why you'd bring that up.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #148 - November 24, 2011, 05:45 PM
    decency? okay, i can understand talking about "decency" in western society where girls are objectified and over-sexualized, but we're talking about a muslim-majority country here. one of the main points is to fight AGAINST values of decency.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #149 - November 24, 2011, 05:56 PM
    Rehumanizing her sexuality? She has to get naked to do that? Also stop trying to put words in my mouth. My stand on this is pretty straight forward... I support her cause but can't support her method. If ur not grown up to accept that people don't have to agree with your stance 100% then go ahead and get your knickers in a knot over it. Anyway enough of this thread... I can't be bothered getting into arguments with people who just lash out with accusations at those who disagree with them. Toodle loo.

    Abood the topic of decency came up because of the first comments I read iand heard on this subject about being hot and goodlooking. I think it cheapens the cause and turns it into a bit of a peepshow in some way. How many clicked for the cause and how many clicked for boobs?
    -------------------
    Believe in yourself
    -------------------
    Strike me down and I'll just become another nail in your coffin
    -------------------
    There's such a thing as sheep in wolfs clothing... religious fanatics
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