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 Topic: Egypt : nudity against Islamism

 (Read 31717 times)
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  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #90 - November 24, 2011, 11:34 AM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 11:16 AM
    Nudity is not against Islam, it's against civilization.  


    Which civilization is it against?


    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 11:16 AM
    Nobody is right or wrong.


    ie: the comforting abandoning of any critical scrutiny or judgment, especially popularly invoked when such scrutiny pertains to aspects of Islam or Islamic culture. Good get out clause, and of course, the hypocrisy policing settles everything definitively.





    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #91 - November 24, 2011, 11:37 AM
    Quote from: billy on November 24, 2011, 11:31 AM
    So what have you learned from the tu quoque?


    Right and wrong is based on consensus. If most Egyptians think she's wrong, then she is.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #92 - November 24, 2011, 11:38 AM
    Unless of course, you believe in absolute morality. Smiley
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #93 - November 24, 2011, 11:41 AM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 11:37 AM
    Right and wrong is based on consensus. If most Egyptians think she's wrong, then she is.


    You only just 'learnt' this notion now? Wow.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #94 - November 24, 2011, 11:43 AM
    You seem to be ignoring the massive herd of elephants in the room. That almost everywhere on earth, being nude in public is wrong, to varying extents.

    Islam is not the reason.

    Try and think of what causes this, instead of taking the simple route in every argument you make.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #95 - November 24, 2011, 11:44 AM
    Did I say I learned that now?
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #96 - November 24, 2011, 11:55 AM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 11:43 AM
    You seem to be ignoring the massive herd of elephants in the room. That almost everywhere on earth, being nude in public is wrong, to varying extents.

    Islam is not the reason.

    Try and think of what causes this, instead of taking the simple route in every argument you make.


    The massive herd of elephants is the comparison you made which is frankly embarassing in its falsity - akin to the 'if she was a 12 year old girl' fallacy you drew as your tu quoque.

    If you walked into the street in the nude you would probably be arrested. If you took a nude picture and posted it on your blog you wouldn't be arrested. No comparison. Apples and oranges, again.

    That there are degrees of 'tolerance' and acceptance of the nude form is kind of obvious. That the ideas and assumptions the Egyptian blogger and artist is making a statement about are at least partly rooted in patriarchal ideas intertwined with Islam is also obvious.

    And you didn't mention which civilisation or civilisations nudity was 'against'.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #97 - November 24, 2011, 11:55 AM
    Quote
    Did I say I learned that now?


    You did say you were on a mission to 'learn', and I agree, 'learning' something as basic and crass as that would be amazing if it were only achieved now.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #98 - November 24, 2011, 11:55 AM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 11:43 AM
    You seem to be ignoring the massive herd of elephants in the room. That almost everywhere on earth, being nude in public is wrong, to varying extents.

    ... and for varying reasons. However, she isn't running around nude in public, which is the comparative example you've presented, an example that fails to prove your subsequent points since the equivalence isn't there.

    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 11:43 AM
    Islam is not the reason.

    To disregard the part religion plays in perpetuating a state of affairs so combustible that putting a nude photo on personal blog causes national and political outcry is to ignore reality.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #99 - November 24, 2011, 12:01 PM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 11:16 AM
    Nudity is not against Islam, it's against civilization.  Civilization is about being more than animal, animals are all nudists.

    However, animals are what we are. So there's a tension. It's why the most primitive people in the world today, are nudist. Not because of insight into extraordinary wisdom, they know the least about anything than anyone else. But because they are not civilized.


    Picking your nose is uncivilised. Burping after a meal is uncivilised. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #100 - November 24, 2011, 12:06 PM
    I'm an ex-Muslim, my argumemts no longer begin and end with Islam.

    By saying "it's on Facebook, she's not running around, and she's not 12."

    Is not addressing the point I made, it's just telling me what YOU think is ok and what isn't. The Muslim Brotherhood are doing the same.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #101 - November 24, 2011, 12:10 PM

    Ah yes, we are the same as the Muslim Brotherhood. Gotcha.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #102 - November 24, 2011, 12:14 PM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 12:06 PM
    I'm an ex-Muslim, my argumemts no longer begin and end with Islam.

    Hyperbole. Irrelevant.

    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 12:06 PM
    By saying "it's on Facebook, she's not running around, and she's not 12."

    Is not addressing the point I made, it's just telling me what YOU think is ok and what isn't. The Muslim Brotherhood are doing the same.

    Can you restate your main point please.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #103 - November 24, 2011, 12:17 PM
    I'm not saying you're the same, I'm asking you to demonstrate why you are different in the sense of claiming what is ok and what is not.

    If you are unable to, then stop typing, and allow someone else to try. I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER. I'm exploring it, but you want to end the discussion with "Islam bad, anyone against them good."  bedtime2

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #104 - November 24, 2011, 12:23 PM
    Because if someone asserts something is not ok, the onus is on them to show why it is not ok. Otherwise, why not permit it?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #105 - November 24, 2011, 12:24 PM

    Yes, we get it. All others have simplicity of thought and intent in contrast to your own expansive, philosophical, questing integrity - which in an irony I'm sure you miss, always ends with labelling everyone else definitively in manners that are not just tu quoque but false too.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #106 - November 24, 2011, 12:38 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on November 24, 2011, 12:23 PM
    Because if someone asserts something is not ok, the onus is on them to show why it is not ok. Otherwise, why not permit it?


    In Egypt the indecency laws are as such:

    Quote
    It applies only to aggressive genital exposure with intent to shock those who want not to see the genitals. The maximum penalty is two years' imprisonment.


    Nobody has to click, but that is not a valid argument against piracy, or child nudity etc. Again, not the same kinds of things I know, but the argument doesn't work as a solitary argument (not clicking).

    Oh and I lied, those are not Egyptian laws, those are OURS.

    So...aggressive is wrong. On a scale of one to ten, was she aggressive or passive, one being passive, ten being militant.

    It IS complicated, anyone simplifying it is not doing her any favours.

    Quote
    Yes, we get it. All others have simplicity of thought and intent in contrast to your own expansive, philosophical, questing integrity - which in an irony I'm sure you miss, always ends with labelling everyone else definitively in manners that are not just tu quoque but false too.


    Nope, just you.

    Note: I have no issues with her whatsoever, honestly don't care. I'm wondering though about her arguments, and the Muslim Brotherhoods, because clearly there is some bigger issue here that both her and they have missed or are unaware of.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #107 - November 24, 2011, 12:52 PM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 17, 2011, 12:23 PM
    She has more balls than the Brotherhood put together.

    Quote from: posthuman on November 17, 2011, 12:33 PM
    Geek I was being ironic.

    (She has no balls, yet has more. The Muslim Brotherhood are scared of one girl, buncha pussies...


    That was my original response and instinct.

    The reason I'm an ex-Muslim is for the same reason why I now raise this issue. I question everything, including myself.

    One interesting question: Why I used genitalia for swear words. And why most swear words are related to genitalia, but murder can be used to describe traffic.

    Fuck, shit, pussy, cunt, asshole, arse, wanker, cock.

    Why the above words have power is related to why nudity is a taboo almost everywhere.

    Must be because of Islam.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #108 - November 24, 2011, 12:56 PM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 12:38 PM
    It IS complicated, anyone simplifying it is not doing her any favours.

    Anyone willingly disregarding the greater injustices against women - the suppression and oppression of women, the segregation, the dehumanisation, the physical and psychological coercion, and the abuse and violence - from which acts of defiance like this are born is not only doing nobody any favours, but also laying down unnecessary conversational speed bumps.

    This personal act of protest is about a wider sense of those injustices. It is you who are over-simplifying this, if anyone, by not making reasonable distinctions between individual acts of nudity and maintaining that they are all equal for the sake of your argument regardless of place, circumstances, social and moral climate, age, etc.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #109 - November 24, 2011, 01:03 PM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 12:38 PM
    Nope, just you.


    Snide only works when its true, which is why this fails.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #110 - November 24, 2011, 01:10 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on November 24, 2011, 12:56 PM
    Anyone willingly disregarding the greater injustices against women - the suppression and oppression of women, the segregation, the dehumanisation, the physical and psychological coercion, and the abuse and violence - from which acts of defiance like this are born is not only doing nobody any favours, but also laying down unnecessary conversational speed bumps.

    This personal act of protest is about a wider sense of those injustices. It is you who are over-simplifying this, if anyone, by not making reasonable distinctions between individual acts of nudity and maintaining that they are all equal for the sake of your argument regardless of place, circumstances, social and moral climate, age, etc.


    Actually, it is about you. That post is not idealism, it is personal. What's going on? Huh?
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #111 - November 24, 2011, 01:13 PM

    Your response to Ishina is wilfully obtuse - I don't think you're debating in good faith.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #112 - November 24, 2011, 01:17 PM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 01:10 PM
    Actually, it is about you. That post is not idealism, it is personal. What's going on? Huh?

    What?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #113 - November 24, 2011, 01:17 PM
    Quote from: billy on November 24, 2011, 01:03 PM
    Snide only works when its true, which is why this fails.


    So when I said I was talking to you and no one else, it was false?

    You need to re-read the logical fallacies you love to cite, as you break them constantly.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #114 - November 24, 2011, 01:19 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on November 24, 2011, 01:17 PM
    What?


    I put myself in your shoes, what would make me write that post? Domestic abuse. In which case I'm sorry.

    But I havn't really experienced it, so you have more knowledge about it, but I can be more objective. Advantages and disadvantages etc. Both are needed.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #115 - November 24, 2011, 01:20 PM
    What?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #116 - November 24, 2011, 01:22 PM
    Otherwise men would be in concentration camps.
    Quote from: billy on November 24, 2011, 01:13 PM
    Your response to Ishina is wilfully obtuse - I don't think you're debating in good faith.


    You can call me obtuse, but don't question my motives again.
    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #117 - November 24, 2011, 01:24 PM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 01:17 PM
    So when I said I was talking to you and no one else, it was false?


    Another failure. You were indeed addressing it to me but thats not what I was getting at. I said your snide caricature fails because it is not correct, so it fails as a piece of rhetoric.

    Having said that, snide is as snide does, which I make an allowance for.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #118 - November 24, 2011, 01:26 PM
    Quote from: posthuman on November 24, 2011, 01:22 PM
    You can call me obtuse, but don't question my motives again.


    I wasn't talking about motive. 
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Egypt : nudity against Islamism
     Reply #119 - November 24, 2011, 01:30 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on November 24, 2011, 01:20 PM
    What?


    I think he's saying that because as a man he has never experienced the injustices and humiliations that a woman experiences (which he suggests is caused by you having been a victim of domestic abuse) he is capable of bringing an objective insight to the discussion that you are not able to bring, whilst your experiences and insights are possibly biased and conditioned and in some ways less objective.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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