thought on classical greek's influence on islam

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thought on classical greek's influence on islam
OP - December 18, 2011, 10:39 PM

it's well known that islam is influenced by classical greek thought, but i was talking to a friend about aristotle's 'unmoved mover', and he pointed out that one of god's names in islam is as-samad (الصمد), which literally translates to 'the unmoved'. could this be another instance of greek philosophy's influence on islam?
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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #1 - December 24, 2011, 09:56 PM

Yes! All abrahamic faiths tried to incorporate god of the philosophers into god of theology.

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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #2 - December 24, 2011, 10:37 PM

Quote from: Abood on December 18, 2011, 10:39 PM
it's well known that islam is influenced by classical greek thought, but i was talking to a friend about aristotle's 'unmoved mover', and he pointed out that one of god's names in islam is as-samad (الصمد), which literally translates to 'the unmoved'. could this be another instance of greek philosophy's influence on islam?

I don't know if it was a direct copy and paste, but it is true that many ancient religions produced long lists of Divine Attributes or Divine Names (certainly this is the case for Zoroastrianism and the ancient Vedics) so I won't be surprised if those names were recycled through the region. It is probably also the case that there are only so many great names that one can think of for God and that these were probably used by different cultures even if there was no direct communication between them.

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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #3 - December 24, 2011, 11:33 PM

I cant understand how i missed this post!

I will write a post later!

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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #4 - December 31, 2011, 06:11 PM

Quote from: z10 on December 24, 2011, 10:37 PM
I don't know if it was a direct copy and paste, but it is true that many ancient religions produced long lists of Divine Attributes or Divine Names

Such as?

Quote
(certainly this is the case for Zoroastrianism and the ancient Vedics)

The list of the names of Ahura Mazda was made by Parsees of India. And the etymology of the names all correspond strongly to the Sanskrit, Vedic names of God.

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It is probably also the case that there are only so many great names that one can think of for God

Please elaborate more on this.

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and that these were probably used by different cultures even if there was no direct communication between them.

Okay. So you say these "different" cultures not only all had the concept of the Supreme Being by themselves but also had different Great Names to refer and extol?
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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #5 - December 31, 2011, 06:19 PM

It is logical to posit a supreme being. Darius actually did it for political reasons - see Tom Holland Persian Fire.

The Greek influence I love is about modesty.

http://www.sbl-site.org/publications/article.aspx?articleId=271

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The apostle Paul wanted women to cover their tresses while praying because he — like the rest of Hellenistic culture then — believed that the long hair of adult females was the sexual equivalent of male testicles, according to a newly published study.

Citing writings from Aristotle, Euripedes and the disciples of Hippocrates, the "father of medicine," Troy W. Martin of St. Xavier University in Chicago said that Paul reflected the physiology of his time in believing that the hair of adult women "is part of female genitalia."

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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #6 - December 31, 2011, 06:25 PM

Quote from: Gladfly on December 24, 2011, 09:56 PM
Yes! All abrahamic faiths tried to incorporate god of the philosophers into god of theology.

Is the God of philosophy seperate and distinct from the God of theology? Is philosophy mutually seperate and unrelated to theology?

What you are saying is true however. Because Abrahamic religions on the very first instance and front up are "theistic" in a ritualistic and law-abiding sort of way. Less concerned with the individual's spirituality, quest for truth and whether he actually is able to realize it and more on "conversion", "being in a religion", "promise of heaven", "having salvation" etc
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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #7 - December 31, 2011, 06:26 PM

Quote from: passingaround on December 31, 2011, 06:11 PM
Such as?

The list of the names of Ahura Mazda was made by Parsees of India. And the etymology of the names all correspond strongly to the Sanskrit, Vedic names of God.

You're quite right, it is not surprising that the Persians and the Vedics share etymological roots.

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Please elaborate more on this.

Okay. So you say these "different" cultures not only all had the concept of the Supreme Being by themselves but also had different Great Names to refer and extol?

I think there are certain human ideas that are universal, probably because they were formed when we were all in trees together. No matter where you are in the world you have a concept of beauty and strength and intelligence etc. It is not difficult to go from there to thinking of the Most Beautiful or The Strongest. Whether you call her Sophia or Athena or Isis, you are still refering to the same concept of the Goddess of Wisdom.

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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #8 - December 31, 2011, 07:19 PM

Really good and interesting discussion. Hope you dont mind me opining my thoughts.

Quote from: z10 on December 31, 2011, 06:26 PM
I think there are certain human ideas that are universal, probably because they were formed when we were all in trees together. No matter where you are in the world you have a concept of beauty and strength and intelligence etc.

Yes. But having worldy experiences and conceptions remain at that.

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It is not difficult to go from there to thinking of the Most Beautiful or The Strongest.

This is semantics.

Yes its true that Polytheism and Monotheism are similar in that the worshipped and the worshipper are not one. And that the worshipped is external. And worship is to appease or make request to the deity. But the psychology behind Polytheism and Monotheism though correlated is not exactly same. To deify beauty and strength i.e attributes which we admire etc is something ubiquitous in all of humanity yes. Otherwise we wouldnt have been worshipping Gods. But this is more like attributing supernatural status to something wordly. Its more like those who worshipped these things were in awe of them. And as a result made up personalities of these things. That is one way to go about polytheism.

There is also claiming external entities that specialize and have powers over certain things. This more of a human nature/desire to think that there is something external that has certain powers and can control something. Therefore by worshipping these entities, humans can make circumstances favourable for them. This is done out of a lack of understanding of a Supreme Being.
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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #9 - January 28, 2012, 04:46 PM

Quote from: z10 on December 31, 2011, 06:26 PM
You're quite right, it is not surprising that the Persians and the Vedics share etymological roots.
.....
Whether you call her Sophia or Athena or Isis, you are still refering to the same concept of the Goddess of Wisdom.

I haven't got instant access to all the scholars I want to quote to back up my suggestion which is that The feminine aspect of the divine was the basis of most scriptural texts of the Abrahamic traditions.

For Islam I need only quote Rabia who put the male sufis to shame with, "If I worship The God only to gain entry to heaven bar me from heaven. If I worship the Divine to save me from hell then cast me into hell." Then of course there are all the women that surrounded Mohammad. No need to say more.

For Christianity, the development of the teachings and the writings of some of the gospels was due to the efforts of the same women Paul thanks at length in Romans 16; 1-16. But that was Gnostic Christianity. Then Literalist Christianity came along in the form of the misogynistic "Church Fathers" typified by Tertullion, with an agenda to put women back in their place;
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It is not permitted for a woman to speak in church, nor is it permitted for her to teach, nor to baptise, nor to offer the eucharist, nor to claim for herself a share in any male function - not to mention any priestly office. .... You are the devil's gateway. You are she who persuaded him whom the devil did not dare attack. Do you not know that everyone of you is an ve? The sentence of God oin your sex - lives on in this age, the guilt as well.

Tertullion, "On the ? of Women", 1.1.2

For Judaism, according to Shmuley Boteach, Judaism is based on the transcendence of female spirituality.

Does any of that prove my original suggestion?

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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #10 - January 28, 2012, 06:13 PM

Was Islam influenced by the very strong atheistic tendencies in Greek thinking?

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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #11 - January 28, 2012, 06:13 PM

and i was taught that one of the root meanings of "elohim" was the breased one.

I do believe ALL religions originated with the goddess in some form or another.

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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #12 - January 30, 2012, 05:20 PM

I found those quotes which I wanted but couldn't find, but they are only the opinion of a Rabbi who teaches in Oxford who was absolutely trounced in a debate with the Hitch.

This quote was my favourite, from the chapter addressed to women, in his book "An Intelligent Person's Guide to Judaism"

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Men require physical signs of spirituality in order to bring out their religious devotion. For women this occurs more intuitively. And so men may need to wear a yarmulka to remind them that God accompanies them at all times, while women don't need an external symbol as they experience the divine presence more inwardly.

another quote from the same chapter;
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The common denominator of all these names [descriptions?] of the divine is that they either convey Awsome Might and Vengence or nuturing and mothering.

he also writes;
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Rabbi Issac Luria, a famous mystic, even wrote in the 15th century that the Messiah would not come until husbands started listening to their wives, by which he meant that the Messiah would not come until men began worshipping God as women do.

And this quote from where he is summing up the arguments of the chapter;
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Women, hailing from the infinite, are not bound by time the way that men are. Their spirituality transcends the confines of spatio-temporal existance and they are thus obligated only in those commandments which apply at all times and places.

These are some quotes I copied from his book years ago, so they may not be quite verbatim but I think I was true to the intended meaning when I copied them.

Quote from: moi on January 28, 2012, 06:13 PM
Was Islam influenced by the very strong atheistic tendencies in Greek thinking?

I think so. I think this influence was there right from the begining since Mecca was not the home of ignorance before Mo appeared even though Mo says it was. I think the Greek influence was already there in the Gnostic Xtians who were refugees from persecution by the emerging Literalist Xtianity, but I haven't got all the quotes handy which justify that thought.

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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #13 - January 30, 2012, 05:56 PM

Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on January 28, 2012, 06:13 PM
and i was taught that one of the root meanings of "elohim" was the breased one.

I do believe ALL religions originated with the goddess in some form or another.

All religions may have originated from goddess That may be true in all higher species including human beings.. but was that ?? "elohim" was the breased one.?? You mean GREASED ONE??

That is a funny statement Jinn., Well that is what I expect from Jinns after drinking "TONIC".. lol...

any ways Peaceheretic was never a GOOD MUSLIM.. How can he say this??

Quote from: peaceheretic on January 30, 2012, 05:20 PM
............... I think this influence was there right from the begining since Mecca was not the home of ignorance before Mo appeared even though Mo says it was. ...........

Mecca was filled with Ignorance young girls were buried in the sand because they were girls.. Lucky Prophet found 45 year old Khadija, other wise he would have never got any woman to marry him.. Forget Meccans you are ignorant Peaceheretic

what Sheila Musaji says is right "Don’t Confuse Islam and Muslims *

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Go to the source. Study the Qur’an. If anyone tells you something about Islam demand proof from the source. Don’t assume that because someone was born a Muslim they are an authority Islam. (In fact, they may know less than you do!) Don’t assume because some practices are widespread in the Muslim community that they are Islamic, this is not necessarily true, there is a lot of culture masquerading as Islam. Be very suspicious of anything that sounds unreasonable, unjust, or leads to distress and confusion instead of to peace and harmony.

So peace heretic I don't know where you got that information but go to the source Read Quran..

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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #14 - January 31, 2012, 12:28 AM

Quote from: moi on January 28, 2012, 06:13 PM
Was Islam influenced by the very strong atheistic tendencies in Greek thinking?

What were these atheistic tendencies? I don't think any ancient Greek philosopher or intellectual considered themselves or their ideas to be atheistic in any sense.
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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #15 - January 31, 2012, 12:29 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on January 30, 2012, 05:56 PM
All religions may have originated from goddess That may be true in all higher species including human beings.. but was that ?? "elohim" was the breased one.?? You mean GREASED ONE??
So peace heretic I don't know where you got that information but go to the source Read Quran

Was it not "Breasted One"? - J&T is allowed to make typos just like I am. Or maybe I am missing your joke and you already know that?

Did I not say that I was given my Qur'an 20 years ago? Whatever makes you think I never read it? No, I hadn't read the Sira and the Hadiths then back in those days (apart from the carefully chosen Hadiths that Idries Shah used to quote), but then I hadn't been guided there by the lovely Wafa Sultan. And yes I have got Robert Spencer's book on the life of Mohammad.

Got any more doubts or questions Yeezevee?

About me, I mean. Because I know who I am, I'm just not sure who you are - at least not as sure as I was before you started your first (well first that I've ever seen) sock-puppet. Maybe I might learn to trust you again, if I don't catch you at it again.

I was, after all, the founder of MSN's InterfaithUnderstanding Group/forum and co-manager along with the wonderful and wise "Femi94ce" back in the old MSN-group days. That is where my ID comes from. I have no reason to deny my past. Yes, there were some idiots (people with an agenda to discredit me) posting in various variations of that ID. That is why I got into the habit of making hard copy of most of my posts.

But you carry on thinking that I am dumb and know nothing - if you wish - because, after all, I am still very slow at typing and make loads of typos and grammar mistakes. I am happy with you thinking whatever you want.

"And you, you are a fantasy, a view from where you'd like to think the world should see, just be true, and you will likely find a few building a vision, doing justice to our times."
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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #16 - January 31, 2012, 12:57 PM

Quote from: peaceheretic on January 31, 2012, 12:29 PM
Was it not "Breasted One"? - J&T is allowed to make typos just like I am. Or maybe I am missing your joke and you already know that?

Did I not say that I was given my Qur'an 20 years ago? Whatever makes you think I never read it? No, I hadn't read the Sira and the Hadiths then back in those days (apart from the carefully chosen Hadiths that Idries Shah used to quote), but then I hadn't been guided there by the lovely Wafa Sultan. And yes I have got Robert Spencer's book on the life of Mohammad.

Got any more doubts or questions Yeezevee?

About me, I mean. Because I know who I am, I'm just not sure who you are - at least not as sure as I was before you started your first (well first that I've ever seen) sock-puppet. Maybe I might learn to trust you again, if I don't catch you at it again.

I was, after all, the founder of MSN's InterfaithUnderstanding Group/forum and co-manager along with the wonderful and wise "Femi94ce" back in the old MSN-group days. That is where my ID comes from. I have no reason to deny my past. Yes, there were some idiots posting in various variations of that ID.

But you carry on thinking that I am dumb and know nothing - if you wish - because, after all, I am very slow at typing and make loads of typos and grammar mistakes. I am happy with you thinking whatever you want.

peaceheretic you are a serious guy., The fact I made that word "breased" in to greased should have given you hint that i was joking junkie, and you are taking every word of that post as serious junkie. I have absolutely NO doubt on any person in CEMB and ffi., I tell you this, suppose there is a riot in the town, I being Zebra every one wants to eat me. To save my self I will run in to the home of a long time reader of CEMB or FFI irrespective of their religious background instead of running in to the homes of Muslims or other religious folks to save my self.. Take it easy, I don't doubt any one who reads and writes in to these forums like CEMB and FFI for a long time irrespective of their religious background/their support to particular group/culture/religion.

Any ways Many people also use my ID and my nick name yeezevee in various forums. in fact initially some one used in cemb. The point is take it easy. By the way I have NOT READ ANYTHING on Islam(BOOKS) that is written after 1970., All books I read on religions are 16th, 17th 18th and 19th century off course along with scriptures of respective religions. So I never read any book from Wafa Sultan or Robert Spencer., I only watch them on tube or read their articles.

So please take it easy., I don't doubt you and I never doubted you., It is true I do heckle a bit in posts when ever I think is needed irrespective of their religious background and some times I may go wrong a bit.

with best wishes
yeezevee

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #17 - January 31, 2012, 01:00 PM

"And you, you are a fantasy, a view from where you'd like to think the world should see, just be true, and you will likely find a few building a vision, doing justice to our times."
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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #18 - January 31, 2012, 01:22 PM

Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Greeks_accused_or_listed_as_atheists

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Centuries before the supposed resurrection of Christ, Greek philosophers were applying healthy skepticism to the idea of a divine omnipotent being(s). In the 4th century B.C., Plato posed what has come to be known as the “Euthyphro Dilemma” which questioned whether God commands something because it is morally good or whether something is morally good because it is commanded by God. These choices are seen as horns of a dilemma. The first horn arises from the fact that, if something is good just because God commands it, He could command genocide and such nasty commands would necessarily be seen as good. Of course, God does just that several times in the Bible, most notably in 1 Samuel 15 (NIV) where He directs: “Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys”. They never read this verse to kids in Sunday school and Christian apologists go blue in the face trying to explain it. Suffice it to say that slaying infants offends our innate human moral sensibilities, regardless of whether God supposedly said to do it or not.

The second horn of the Euthyphro Dilemma arises if God commands things because they are morally good. If moral goodness is a standard separate from God and merely followed by God, then moral standards become like eternal mathematical truths and God becomes an irrelevant follower of pre-existing rules.

Believers in the Judeo-Christian God try to get around the Euthyphro Dilemma in several ways. The first is to suggest that things are good because God wills them and that He only wills good things. However, this is just playing with words because, if God is literally goodness, why waste time differentiating between goodness and God? Let’s just ignore the supposed supernatural being and give thanks to the concept of goodness! [Your local humanist society awaits you] Another way around the dilemma is to suggest that God cannot command what is repugnant to his benevolence (again, there are a few Amalekite infants who might question that benevolence). Finally, a few fundamentalists are willing to grab the horn of the first dilemma and admit that whatever God wills is good. He’s the big guy so he gets to call the shots. This is what is referred to as divine command theory. The problem with divine command theory is that a similar defence failed at Nuremburg.

Another Greek philosopher who was centuries ahead of his time was Epicurus who lived in the third century B.C. Epicurus is said to have presented the first argument in support of atheism when he wrote:

“God either wants to eliminate bad things and cannot, or can but does not want to, or neither wishes to nor can, or both wants to and can. If he wants to and cannot, then he is weak - and this does not apply to god. If he can but does not want to, then he is spiteful - which is equally foreign to god's nature. If he neither wants to nor can, he is both weak and spiteful, and so not a god. If he wants to and can, which is the only thing fitting for a god, where then do bad things come from? Or why does he not eliminate them?”

The questions posed by Epicurus, which have come to be known as the Epicurean Riddle, are essentially a summation of the problem of evil. The problem of evil remains a tricky problem for anyone who believes in an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-loving deity. At this point, it is common for religious believers to play the mystery card by suggesting that God allows suffering for a greater good that is beyond our understanding. Ironically, I agree with the mystery card to the extent that I am certain that there are things beyond human comprehension (and which may always be beyond human comprehension) in much the same way as an insect will never be able to comprehend Einstein’s Theory of Special Relativity. However, this is precisely the point where atheists and religious believers part ways. Religious believers play the mystery card to fill in the cracks of their beliefs while continuing to hold unwavering beliefs in metaphysical truths incapable of proof. On the other hand, atheists prefer unanswered questions to unquestioned answers.

Suggested follow-up reading: Glenn Peoples "A New Euthyphro" Think, Vol. 9, No. 25 (2010), pp. 65-83.

http://www.atheistmissionary.com/2011/09/irreligiosity-greek-atheist-golden.html

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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #19 - February 01, 2012, 11:21 AM

Quote
Religious believers play the mystery card to fill in the cracks of their beliefs while continuing to hold unwavering beliefs in metaphysical truths incapable of proof. On the other hand, atheists prefer unanswered questions to unquestioned answers.

Yup. But doesn't that dichotomise between atheists and all the rest?

What do I mean? Well imagine that there is only the atheist position - as the "Mutazilites" who took power in Baghdad [way back whenever] did. You will recall that they were so extreme in their "Createdness of the Quran" rule that they werwe putting to death clerics who (in the, Fundie, Literaslist, way they do) were insisting on the "Uncreatedness" of the Qur'an (as Sunni Islam and orthodox Shia Islam still insists on today). And this premature "reformation" went a bit wrong there if you can recall without references.

That's what I mean by dichotomise - there's no middle ground to stand on. Like when Ayatollah Khomeni thanked all the left-wingers who had helped his "revolution" by killing them. I suppose you could say they were standing on the wrong middle ground.

The only answer that makes any sense to this polarising of positions is Maryam's call for secularism. But your post confirms, I think, that this dichotomy will last as long as organised religions are demanding public space and special treatment. But chopping off the heads of incorrigable believers wasn't really a good reformation of Islam, was it?

"And you, you are a fantasy, a view from where you'd like to think the world should see, just be true, and you will likely find a few building a vision, doing justice to our times."
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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #20 - February 01, 2012, 11:26 AM

But the middle space is what the French do - lacite. Do what you like, believe what you want, but in private and with no harm unless consenting adults.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #21 - February 01, 2012, 04:40 PM

Quote from: moi on February 01, 2012, 11:26 AM
But the middle space is what the French do - lacite. Do what you like, believe what you want, but in private and with no harm unless consenting adults.

Lacite? Was not successful with French at school.

But French friends tell me that what they do is realise that we don't live in a bi-polar world, not even in a world that can be described as if confined along a straight line which lies between right-wing and left-wing.

They insist that few issues can be reduced to a scale between left and right with extremism at the limits. Going further, they also insist that trying to describe a multi-dimensional reality, whether political, social, educational, cultural or sociatal is American typical over-simplification. And the Anglophone world, lacking decent philosophers, need their facile, bi-polar view of everything to be moderated by a more cultured civilisation.

Maybe I won't bother learning French. Us and them was good enough for me when I was at school.

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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #22 - April 12, 2012, 01:13 PM

Quote from: Frollo on January 31, 2012, 12:28 AM
What were these atheistic tendencies? I don't think any ancient Greek philosopher or intellectual considered themselves or their ideas to be atheistic in any sense.

There were many Greek Philosophers that exercised Atheistic ideas. During the Hellenistic Age, but centuries before Christianity got going, the belief in a single supreme diety began to get popular amongst the Greeks. Both Plato and Aristotle had hinted at it, "The Prime Mover". But there were many others that rejected the notion.

Here's what Epicurus (341– 270 BC) had to say about it:

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Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?

(Source)

Then there was Strato of Lampsacus who denied the need for an active god to construct the universe, preferring to place the government of the universe in the unconscious force of nature alone.

Finaly there was a Greek guy from Cyrenecia (modern Libya) called Theodorus the Atheist.

What's interesting about all these guys is they all lived at round about the same time (330-270 BC): the first generation of the Hellenestic Age, when Greeks were first getting exposed to alternative religious ideas through their control of an empire in the Middle East (Alexander's conquests). Atheism is perhaps the natural result of hearing about so many conflicting religious ideas and the origin of the world, if they all disagree then perhaps none of them are right. It seems like there was an Atheist movement at this time which later faded, perhaps due to increasing Jewish influence at Alexandria.

But back to the original question of the thread, the Koran says somewhere that Allah created all living things from water (forget where exactly). This was an idea expounded by Thales of Miletus back in the 7th Century BC.
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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #23 - April 12, 2012, 04:18 PM

Quote
Men require physical signs of spirituality in order to bring out their religious devotion. For women this occurs more intuitively. And so men may need to wear a yarmulka to remind them that God accompanies them at all times, while women don't need an external symbol as they experience the divine presence more inwardly.

he also writes;
Quote
Rabbi Issac Luria, a famous mystic, even wrote in the 15th century that the Messiah would not come until husbands started listening to their wives, by which he meant that the Messiah would not come until men began worshipping God as women do.

Does he mean like this?

http://navfin.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/st-teresa-of-avila.html

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Re: thought on classical greek's influence on islam
Reply #24 - April 12, 2012, 04:22 PM

Actually, it cannot have had much of an influence because they banned the human image...

http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com/235.html

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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