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Theme Changer

 Topic: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?

 (Read 13885 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #30 - December 28, 2011, 08:54 PM

    BRB, I gotta ask my parents if any of my aunts/grandparents ever wore mini-skirts.
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #31 - December 28, 2011, 09:29 PM

    Most likely not
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #32 - December 28, 2011, 09:37 PM

    Colonel Q-Daffi
    "1. US, UK, and other imperialist nations have a history going back to at least just after WWII of undermining secular governments in the Middle East in the context of the Cold War and supporting religious reactionaries in that region as a counterweight to Soviet influence-- Afghanistan was merely the culmination of this policy, it started in 1953 with the CIA and MI6 orchestrated overthrown of the democratic regime in Iran and continued with Western policy towards Egypt (and to a lesser extent Syria, Algeria, and Palestine) until 1978 when the CIA intervened in Afghanistan to successfully provoke a Soviet intervention.
    2. After WWI when the European colonial powers (primarily the UK and France) divided up the old Ottoman Empire, borders were drawn which exist to this day on the basis of political expediency rather than traditional tribal or sectarian boundaries. This in turn led to deformed national development in the region.
    3. The result of (1) and (2) above was the following:
    (a) Hostility and resentment towards foreign intervention, which was easily then framed by religious fundamentalists as the kuffar versus Muslims.
    (b) The weakening of secular regimes and progressive movements in the area.
    (c) The creation of reactionary organizations and movements to oppose these regimes.
    (d) The weakening of the development of a national, rather than religious, identity for many in the region, as well as a deformation of the governing structures themselves"

    ===============


    Much better now. Thanks a lot. I’m sure you know that the passive voice creates inter alia, ambiguity and a professorial air which explains less the more abstract it gets. Now that you have spoken in an active voice, I see that it took you geopolitical accounting to elucidate your initial first point. Some of what you described earlier, at least in the historical sense, has had a long-lasting effect on Muslism in general. But what I saw as missing, thus made me ask you a few questions, is that it does not fully account for the recrudescence of hijab in particular. In other words, they can be regurgitated to support any and almost all developments pertaining to Muslim countries between 1909-2000 and cannot be narrowed and directly linked to dress codes and 'miniskirts'.


    ==================
    You said: "2. Corruption and authoritarianism of secular regimes in the region leading to a perception that secularism (and along with it Arab nationalism) had failed, thus leading to a reawakening of Islamic fundamentalism and universalism to fill the void."  And I wondered "Local factors: Does it have to be either secular or religious? In other words, is there any human normative purity or absolutism?" to which you said the following: "And you're complaining about "plain English?"

    "While I'm not sure I understand your question, I will attempt to divine its meaning and answer anyways-- most people tend to engage in binary thinking thus it's very easy for Muslim clerics and political activists to say "Well see how corrupt and useless secular government is? We must return to Islam to clean up the corruption and make life better for people""
    ====================


    Yes, you have understood my question. But again, you were descriptive and I wanted you to be proscriptive i.g. to hear your ideas on what is seen as mutually exclusive. As for me, I disagree with the presentation of norms and values as either religious or secular because that is a false dichotomy. Religion when buttresses modesty it does not become its own property. Similarly, when secularism tolerates bikin and mankini, it does not become its quintessence. This is what you explained as two ideologies replacing one another in a mechanical term which, though I thank you for, was more concerned with external material realities as opposed to human notions/norms.

    ==========================
    "Again, not sure I understand the question, BUT, I'm just looking at this as an organizational/historical analysis of the global Islamic "reawakening" which is spoken of here-- its organizational components and historical causes, I'm not willing to speculate any further than that at this time."
    ==============


    Fair enough.
    The question was whether the permeation of hijab which could be linked to literalism/radicalism - or the absence of mini-shirks- is a mere reaction to a historical/geopolitical context OR a textual Islamic reality that is abstract and divorced from all local grievances and external interferences. If the latter is true, radicalism when manifests in dress or otherwise cannot be explained by the events you mentioned. If the former is true, a swift read in Islamic history would show how the modest dress code - full or but the face- has been present during the time when Islam was at least a quasi-unified and strong ummah.  
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #33 - December 28, 2011, 09:44 PM

    I remember my mum's mini skirt days, as I got older her skirts became longer and longer, she became a full hijabi woman by the time I was at high school.

    Teach us to care and not to care / Teach us to sit still.
    What do we live for; if it is not to make life less difficult to each other
    You are the music while the music lasts.
    T.S.Eliot
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #34 - December 28, 2011, 09:51 PM

    i was in a hardcore pentecostal cult for ten years  wacko
    I know EXACTLY where you are coming from!  How did YOU
    get out?  Wasnt easy for me lol.


    Studied sociology at university.  Actually statistics are showing that is by far the best subject to deconvert people.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #35 - December 28, 2011, 09:52 PM

    But what I saw as missing, thus made me ask you a few questions, is that it does not fully account for the recrudescence of hijab in particular.


    I make no claim to possess a "full accounting" of the causes, I simply listed those within my field of knowledge that I think may have had a strong impact on the general resurgence of hardline/literalist/fundamentalist/reactionary/pick your adjective Islam since the 1980s.

    Quote
    In other words, they can be regurgitated to support any and almost all developments pertaining to Muslim countries between 1909-2000


    Not sure that's true but the historical circumstances I mentioned were certainly powerful enough to effect several aspects of the development of Muslim societies for many decades or more.

    Quote
    and cannot be narrowed and directly linked to dress codes and 'miniskirts'.


    Directly? No. Indirectly, yes. I really don't have much interest in a microanalysis of hijab trends honestly.

    fuck you
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #36 - December 28, 2011, 09:59 PM

    - I simply listed those within my field of knowledge that I think may have had a strong impact on the general resurgence
    -  but the historical circumstances I mentioned were certainly powerful enough to effect several aspects of the development of
    - Directly? No. Indirectly, yes. I really don't have much interest in a microanalysis of hijab trends honestly.

    I was hopeful to read on the particularities, quiddities and whatnesses of the topic here. Thanks a lot.
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #37 - December 28, 2011, 10:00 PM

    I remember my mum's mini skirt days, as I got older her skirts became longer and longer, she became a full hijabi woman by the time I was at high school.

    Therefore, there must be a causal relationship between your height and the size of your mother's attire.  Wink
    How are you Fara7, long time you too!
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #38 - December 28, 2011, 10:00 PM

    k

    fuck you
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #39 - December 28, 2011, 10:04 PM

    Quote
    I really don't have much interest in a microanalysis of hijab trends honestly.


    Gestalt - foreground and background.  It is a very important indicator of someone's self identity.  It is definitely worth studying.  We are having the beginnings of some fascinating family sociological studies - why did people go hijab for example over several years around going to high school?  What photos and movies do people have?

    And on covering one's hair and it allegedly being modest, that tracks back over two thousand years to Greek medical thinking that hair was a semen storage device.

    Quote
    John Dart
    [Troy W. Martin's JBL article, "Paul's Argument from Nature for the Veil in 1 Corinthians 11:13-15: A Testicle Instead of a Head Covering," (JBL 123/1 [2004] 75­84) was discussed in the May 2004 issue of The Christian Century. Members may read the complete JBL article online by clicking Publications, Journals, then Journal of Biblical Literature.]

    Paul: Female hair too sexy to go unveiled

    The apostle Paul wanted women to cover their tresses while praying because he — like the rest of Hellenistic culture then — believed that the long hair of adult females was the sexual equivalent of male testicles, according to a newly published study.

    Citing writings from Aristotle, Euripedes and the disciples of Hippocrates, the "father of medicine," Troy W. Martin of St. Xavier University in Chicago said that Paul reflected the physiology of his time in believing that the hair of adult women "is part of female genitalia." Martin's article appears in the spring issue of the Journal of Biblical Literature.

    Modern commentators on the First Letter to the Corinthians have often confessed their confusion over exactly what Paul was telling the Greek church to do. Martin contends that is partly because Paul used a sexual euphemism in 1 Corinthians 11:15 for a word translated as "covering." The word means "testicle" in works by Euripedes and a second-century AD Greek novelist, he said.

    Ancient medical views of where semen comes from and where it goes help to explain Paul's convoluted argument in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16, Martin wrote. "Hippocratic authors hold that hair is hollow and grows primarily from either male or female reproductive fluid or semen flowing into it and congealing," he said. The brain is the place where this fluid is produced or at least stored, they thought. "Since hollow body parts create a vacuum and attract fluid, hair attracts semen," Martin said.

    Martin, a professor of religious studies at the Catholic university, is collaborating on a multivolume work aimed at using ancient medical texts to illuminate passages and concepts in the New Testament.

    When Paul tells the church in Corinth that "nature teaches" that it is "degrading" for men to wear their hair long, the apostle to the gentiles is alluding to once-common beliefs about the role of hair in sexual intercourse, he said. Men with long locks would divert too much semen from their scrotum where their pubic hair and testicles have become larger at puberty. Luxurious hair on women serves them well, however, because those long, hollow hairs add to the suction in her body.

    "Long feminine hairs assist the uterus in drawing semen upward and inward; masculine testicles, which are connected to the brain by two channels, facilitate the drawing of semen downward and outward," wrote Martin. The favorite Hippocratic test for fertility in women was linked to the belief about the strong suction power of their head of hair. "A doctor places a scented suppository in a woman's uterus and examines her mouth the next day to see if he can smell the scent of the suppository," said Martin. If he can, she is declared fertile; if not, she is termed sterile because channels to her head are blocked. "The male seed is therefore discharged rather than retained, and the woman cannot conceive," he wrote.

    "Informed by the Jewish tradition, which strictly forbids display of genitalia when engaged in God's service, Paul's argument from nature cogently supports a woman covering her head when praying or prophesying."

    Six-winged seraphim in Isaiah who take part in divine liturgy have two that reverently cover their face and two that cover the feet for modesty. "The term 'feet' euphemistically refers to the genitals of the seraphim," the scholar said. Hebrew priests approaching the altar are to wear linen breeches to cover their naked flesh, according to Exodus, but Martin said that "flesh" in that context means their genitals.

    A woman's hair is her "glory," says Paul, but he added that for the sake of decency her hair should be veiled during public worship. Inasmuch as conceptions of the body have changed, Martin added, "no physiological reason remains for continuing the practice of covering women's heads in public worship, and many Christian communities reasonably abandon this practice."

    Copyright 2004 The Christian Century. Reproduced by permission from the May 2004 issue of The Christian Century. Subscriptions: $49/year from P.O. Box 378, Mt. Morris, IL 61054. 1-800-208-4097


    ww.sbl-site.org/publications/article.aspx?articleId=271

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #40 - December 28, 2011, 10:11 PM

    What zee fuck?   wacko

    My hair is a sperm attractor?   Cheesy Cheesy

    Interesting article, but sounds far fetched.  If it was genitalia, then why did the ruling only apply to whilst they were in church/prayer rather than all the time?


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #41 - December 28, 2011, 10:14 PM

    Studied sociology at university.  Actually statistics are showing that is by far the best subject to deconvert people.


    Completely, 100% agree. Studying IGCSE Sociology is what probably gave me the final push out of Islam.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #42 - December 28, 2011, 10:16 PM

    Completely, 100% agree. Studying IGCSE Sociology is what probably gave me the final push out of Islam.


    You must mate with Moham Ali.

    fuck you
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #43 - December 28, 2011, 10:21 PM

    If a female's hair is the cause of sexual saturnalia, then I am the previous Pope.   
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #44 - December 28, 2011, 10:26 PM

    I used to offer strands of my hair in my rituals as a pagan LOL
    it seemed to work, too!  Tongue

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #45 - December 28, 2011, 11:30 PM

    Not far fetched at all - reality.  Google it, this is common knowledge.  You in fact still get imans and rabbis using it as the justification for "modesty".

    And not specific to xianity - the article I referred to was only using a classic xian text as an example.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #46 - December 29, 2011, 03:30 AM

    My uncle did, but only during our "special time".

    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #47 - December 29, 2011, 10:30 AM

    What zee fuck?   wacko

    My hair is a sperm attractor?   Cheesy Cheesy

    Interesting article, but sounds far fetched.  If it was genitalia, then why did the ruling only apply to whilst they were in church/prayer rather than all the time?




    Why are you looking for logic and consistency?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #48 - December 29, 2011, 10:47 AM

    My uncle did, but only during our "special time".

    Ha.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #49 - December 29, 2011, 10:55 AM

    Why are you looking for logic and consistency?


    because it's fun. 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #50 - December 29, 2011, 01:14 PM

    What zee fuck?   wacko

    My hair is a sperm attractor?   Cheesy Cheesy

    Interesting article, but sounds far fetched.  If it was genitalia, then why did the ruling only apply to whilst they were in church/prayer rather than all the time?



    Actually that was true to some extent, recently there was a picture of one of the royal women's which came out and she had alluring hair, at the time that picture was banned for being too spicy. I forgot the name of the princess though, she innocently was the guys first cousin too.
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #51 - December 29, 2011, 04:48 PM

    My mom and aunts didn't, they wore knee length skirts and sleeveless shirts though, and started wearing the hijab well into their 30s. My mom tells me other girls wore miniskirts when she was in uni, and sheer blouses that showed their bras. Nowadays in my stupid conservative university girls get leered at for wearing knee length skirts.

    Christianity: One woman's lie about having an affair that got seriously out of hand.
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #52 - December 29, 2011, 04:53 PM

    ^
    Is the media then to blame for this global awakening?
    the so-called glocalisation?
    The invention of cassette tapes?
    The mass re-printing of one particular form of classical books?
    The fall of the Ottoman Empire? The end of khilafa?   

    Discuss.



    Wainak ya zalameh???  Welcome back !!

    Teach us to care and not to care / Teach us to sit still.
    What do we live for; if it is not to make life less difficult to each other
    You are the music while the music lasts.
    T.S.Eliot
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #53 - December 29, 2011, 05:09 PM

    My mom and aunts didn't, they wore knee length skirts and sleeveless shirts though, and started wearing the hijab well into their 30s. My mom tells me other girls wore miniskirts when she was in uni, and sheer blouses that showed their bras.


    Are they in contact with their friends still?  Can you get their views?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #54 - December 29, 2011, 05:54 PM

    Are they in contact with their friends still?  Can you get their views?


    I could ask. I've been trying to get to the root of the islamic revival in the middle east myself, and from what I understand it's a combination of many political factors.

    Christianity: One woman's lie about having an affair that got seriously out of hand.
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #55 - December 29, 2011, 06:31 PM

    stifledoubt - me too thinks it was funding by the Saudi Arabia - the timeline would possibly suggest that, if I am not mistaken the mid-seventies was the time Saudi et al took control over their oil, raising prices and giving them surplus petro-dollars to influence the world and the middle east in particular.

    perhaps the entry of the mini-skirt into female fashion created a backlash in the middle-east. Perhaps prior to the mini-skirt, clothing in the middle-east and the west was basically 'modest', but the mini-skirt was deemed a step too far eventually.

    As for hair, in evolutionary terms it is seen as a sign of a females fertility, shiny and healthy being best. hence why billions is spent by women (and men) on hair-care products.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #56 - December 29, 2011, 06:48 PM

    Hmm.  Saudi Arabia.  Eighth wealthiest nation on the planet if you divide income by population.  Nowhere on human development index.  Is it correct Mecca has large numbers of homes without sewage and running water?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Saudi_Arabia

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #57 - December 29, 2011, 08:34 PM

    Quote
    Hmm.  Saudi Arabia.  Eighth wealthiest nation on the planet if you divide income by population.  Nowhere on human development index.  Is it correct Mecca has large numbers of homes without sewage and running water?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Saudi_Arabia


    Well, that is definitely true in Mecca. To be more specific, in Misfalah neihgbourhood which is peopled by Saudis and non-Saudis. When I visited Saudi Arabia for ummrah, back in 2009 before cutting Islam adrift, I went to see a few people I knew near Sharashif Mountain; there weren't the basic amenities in the houses I was invited to. Not continuously at any rate. Running water came one day every 2 weeks and people would get water from masajid. The neighbourhood, I believe, is now flattened and swept clear of houses so that the famous Jabal Omar Project is built on it.

    Poverty isn't only in Mecca, the southwest you go - into the deep hijaz towards jizan - there more you feel you were travelling back in time and it's more like Yemen than Saudi Arabia.  I'm not sure if you understand Arabic but this video report shows abject poverty in the Qunfudah province:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXMq_4kPm4k


    Feeding their own poor and needy does not seem to take precedent when it comes to, before 9/11, subsidising dawahganda in Africa and into my country of birth, Chad. It is an inescapable fact for Salafis that faith is more important than life. This may explain why the latest copy of the Qurran is freely distributed in Saudi whilst a loaf of bread isn't.

    When the so-called War in Darfur was beginning, lots of aid came into the region to cut the way on the so-called Christian missionary charities. It was faith-based charity. On one hand a bread, on the other Kitaab At-Tawheed and Hijab almarat by Ibn-flipping-taymiyyah
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #58 - December 29, 2011, 08:54 PM

    So Allah was asleep in the Moral Philosophy course?

    What society would you choose if you were born anywhere as anyone, as for example a disabled woman in Saudi Arabia?

    Quote
    Original Position
    First published Tue Feb 27, 1996; substantive revision Sat Dec 20, 2008

    The original position is a central feature of John Rawls's social contract account of justice, “justice as fairness,” set forth in A Theory of Justice (TJ).

    It is designed to be a fair and impartial point of view that is to be adopted in our reasoning about fundamental principles of justice.

    In taking up this point of view, we are to imagine ourselves in the position of free and equal persons who jointly agree upon and commit themselves to principles of social and political justice.

    The main distinguishing feature of the original position is “the veil of ignorance”: to insure impartiality of judgment, the parties are deprived of all knowledge of their personal characteristics and social and historical circumstances.

    They do know of certain fundamental interests they all have, plus general facts about psychology, economics, biology, and other social and natural sciences. The parties in the original position are presented with a list of the main conceptions of justice drawn from the tradition of social and political philosophy, and are assigned the task of choosing from among these alternatives the conception of justice that best advances their interests in establishing conditions that enable them to effectively pursue their final ends and fundamental interests.

    Rawls contends that the most rational choice for the parties in the original position are the two principles of justice. The first principle guarantees the equal basic rights and liberties needed to secure the fundamental interests of free and equal citizens and to pursue a wide range of conceptions of the good.

    The second principle provides fair equality of educational and employment opportunities enabling all to fairly compete for powers and prerogatives of office; and it secures for all a guaranteed minimum of the all-purpose means (including income and wealth) that individuals need to pursue their interests and to maintain their self-respect as free and equal persons.



    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/original-position/

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Did your parents, grandparents, aunts wear miniskirts?
     Reply #59 - December 29, 2011, 09:00 PM

    I am no longer a xian, and do not speak arabic, but a gut reaction for me is that it is hypocrisy of the highest degree to be religious without caring for the poor. 

    The New Testament is very strong about this, as is the Jewish Bible.

    Actually, it is possibly my commitment to honesty and truth that destroyed my belief in God.


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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