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Theme Changer

 Topic: Esperanto!

 (Read 10305 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #30 - January 02, 2012, 05:58 PM

    - Algerian Arabic
    - Modern Standard Arabic
    - Levantine Arabic
    - English
    - French
    - Esperanto (yeah, I can pretty much communicate in it now)

    any tips on how to master a language like English?
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #31 - January 03, 2012, 02:24 AM

    World population: getting on for seven billion.

    Number of Esperanto speakers: (optimistically) two million.

    Conclusion: Esperanto is a language that is particularly useful for international communication about 0.03% of the time.

    After a whole century of use, that's impressive. Smiley


    You completely misunderstood that statement. It did not imply that you could speak with everyone in Esperanto -- just that it was really, really useful when you wanted to speak to people internationally. And it is. Especially since these 1-2 million people are scattered all around the world. What does this mean? This means you can go to a Chinese town, find someone who speaks Esperanto, and converse with them as fluently and naturally as two native speakers of a national language might. And they'll show you around and tell you about their own culture. What's remarkable is that this holds in countries internationally, in countries from Lithuania to Brazil. I mean, did you have a look at the map I posted? And Esperanto is still growing.

    World population: getting on for seven billion.

    Number of Esperanto speakers: (optimistically) two million.

    Conclusion: Esperanto is a language that is particularly useful for international communication about 0.03% of the time.

    After a whole century of use, that's impressive. Smiley


    That's a very misleading calculation, and you know it. Ideally you would want to calculate the percentage of Esperanto speakers from the set of all people who could have but chose not to learn Esperanto, to gauge whether its growth is "impressive" or not (I mean, seriously, you're including poor African kids in that estimate). Second, take the Chinese language, for example. Learning it allows you to converse with a fifth of the world population. But because the speakers are concentrated in one geographical spot, you won't be able to do much with it internationally.

    Third, unlike Interlingua, Esperanto wasn't designed with immediate comprehension in mind. Obviously you wouldn't be able to speak to everyone in the whole wide world if you learned Esperanto. It was designed as a language that could in the future become a universal second language, be it by a UN resolution or otherwise. Change takes time. To stop plowing along just because change is slow is the height of pessimistic indolence.

    Sorry, but that's tragic. If you want to take things from Latin, malnova would mean "bad new", not "old".


    Ya habibi, ya osmanthus, Esperanto is not Latin. If you consider it "tragic" that it diverges from Latin, then... I don't know, Esperanto is not for you, I guess. Try Latino sine flexione.

    Also, knowing such words depends on having a grounding in certain other languages. For someone who was raised to speak (for instance) Thai, or other tonal languages like Chinese, learning Esperanto would not be as easy as learning another hypothetical language that was designed to provide international communication for speakers of Asian languages. IOW, Esperanto is very clearly designed by and for Europeans.


    Sure, it wouldn't be as easy, but it would be a hell of a lot easier than learning English. And in fact, China is one of the largest Esperanto hubs in the world (if not the largest), showing that this clearly isn't an impediment to learning the language. Also, you overestimate how easy it would be for Europeans -- the grammar is closer to Chinese and Turkish than to Romance languages.

    And of course, keep in mind that the "ESPERANTO IS NOT EUROPEAN ENOUGH!!!!11!one!!1!" argument is one of the primary raisons d'être of such constructed languages as, among others, Ido and Interlingua.

    Why lucky?


    I like Romance languages. I consider myself lucky because I've had the opportunity to study one. I think anyone who learns any other language is "lucky".

    Also, here's something you might want to have a look at, Oz:

    http://claudepiron.free.fr/articlesenanglais/reactions.htm

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #32 - January 03, 2012, 02:25 AM

    any tips on how to master a language like English?


    Read a lot, write a lot (and get your writing checked by a proficient speaker), read some more and then write some more! The best way to learn any language is to use it a lot.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #33 - January 03, 2012, 04:19 AM

    Fuck Esperanto.

    fuck you
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #34 - January 03, 2012, 04:52 AM

    Very good point, sir. I hadn't considered that argument before. Please excuse me while I try to formulate a counterargument.

    ...

    Okay, I'm done, here it is:

    You're a poopy head!

    ---

    But no, seriously, you of all people, our resident revolutionary, ought to appreciate the idea of an IAL.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #35 - January 03, 2012, 06:35 AM

    You completely misunderstood that statement.

    No, I didn't. Tongue

    Quote
    It did not imply that you could speak with everyone in Esperanto -- just that it was really, really useful when you wanted to speak to people internationally.

    Yes, as long as you only want to speak with 3 people out of every 10,000.

    Quote
    That's a very misleading calculation, and you know it.

    No, it isn't. It's dead accurate.

    Quote
    Ya habibi, ya osmanthus, Esperanto is not Latin. If you consider it "tragic" that it diverges from Latin, then...

    I don't consider it tragic that it diverges from Latin. What I consider tragic is the claim that if you know the word for "new" you will automatically know the word for "old", when the word for "new" is taken directly from Latin but the prefix (which is also taken directly from Latin) means "bad" rather than meaning "not" or whatever. It's inconsistent and confusing.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #36 - January 03, 2012, 06:51 AM

    Wow, it's like you didn't even read my reply. You just regurgitated the same arguments that I addressed.

    You might want to read that document I linked.

    At any rate, if you don't want to learn Esperanto, that's your business. I didn't create this thread to persuade people to learn Esperanto, but just to inform them about it. There's nothing I can do if you don't like Esperanto.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #37 - January 03, 2012, 06:54 AM

    Wow, it's like you didn't even read my reply.

    I did read it. All of it. I just happen to disagree with you on some points.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #38 - January 03, 2012, 07:08 AM

    Even if we agree that Esperanto is in and of itself useless, there's also this.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #39 - January 03, 2012, 07:17 AM

    Very good point, sir. I hadn't considered that argument before. Please excuse me while I try to formulate a counterargument.

    ...

    Okay, I'm done, here it is:

    You're a poopy head!

    ---

    But no, seriously, you of all people, our resident revolutionary, ought to appreciate the idea of an IAL.


    If you mate with Moham Ali, I will support Esperanto.

    fuck you
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #40 - January 03, 2012, 07:26 AM

    Even if we agree that Esperanto is in and of itself useless, there's also this.

    Meh. I'd rather learn Na'vi. Tongue

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #41 - January 03, 2012, 07:26 AM

    If you mate with Moham Ali, I will support Esperanto.


    Fine, but I've gotta be the top.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #42 - January 03, 2012, 07:27 AM

    Meh. I'd rather learn Na'vi. Tongue


    Do you just say that or would you actually consider learning Na'vi?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #43 - January 03, 2012, 07:29 AM

    Me, if I were to learn another conlang, it'd probably be Lojban.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #44 - January 03, 2012, 07:30 AM

    I'd consider it before I'd consider Esperanto.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #45 - January 03, 2012, 07:33 AM

    How many languages do you speak now?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #46 - January 03, 2012, 07:36 AM

    One. grin12

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #47 - January 03, 2012, 07:38 AM

    Fine, but I've gotta be the top.


    Well, we'll see what the professional breeders/geneticists recommend.

    fuck you
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #48 - January 03, 2012, 07:46 AM

    Cheesy

    One. grin12


    In that case, Esperanto is probably one of the few languages you can become fluent in at your age.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #49 - January 03, 2012, 07:51 AM

    Cheesy

    In that case, Esperanto is probably one of the few languages you can become fluent in at your age.

    Bollocks. I used to speak Indonesian years ago, so I know I could do that again if I wanted to. I'm sure I could pick up Italian or Spanish quite easily if I put my mind to it. In any case, I have no interest in learning Esperanto. The thing just feels so fake and all socks-and-sandals. Makes me want to vomit. If I was going to put the effort in, I'd choose a language that had soul and history rather than something that had been fucked up and dumbed down.

    ETA: Oh and I could do Maori as well if I wanted to. Had a basic working grasp of that one a while back.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #50 - January 03, 2012, 08:01 AM

    Bollocks. I used to speak Indonesian years ago, so I know I could do that again if I wanted to. I'm sure I could pick up Italian or Spanish quite easily if I put my mind to it. In any case, I have no interest in learning Esperanto. The thing just feels so fake and all socks-and-sandals. Makes me want to vomit. If I was going to put the effort in, I'd choose a language that had soul and history rather than something that had been fucked up and dumbed down.

    ETA: Oh and I could do Maori as well if I wanted to. Had a basic working grasp of that one a while back.


    But would you be able to speak any of those languages like a native speaker? No, definitely not, not at this age. There are native speakers (denaskuloj) of Esperanto, and even people who have learned it as adults speak Esperanto as fluently as they do.

    Anyway, your rhetoric aside, if you think the language has no soul and no history, and that it has been "fucked up and dumbed down", then clearly you know nothing about Esperanto or its history. I mean, to hate Esperanto is one thing, and it's perfectly okay, but to hate Esperanto based on wrong (or non-existent) knowledge thereof, is... well, not exactly very rational.

    It's clear from what you said that you didn't read the document I linked.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #51 - January 03, 2012, 08:04 AM

    But would you be able to speak any of those languages like a native speaker?

    So what? It'd be more rewarding to tackle a language that I wanted to tackle.

    And I wouldn't necessarily want a language that was all nice and neat and logical. I actually like the fact that English is an illogical mess. Can't see why I wouldn't enjoy the same in another language.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #52 - January 03, 2012, 08:11 AM

    It's clear from what you said that you didn't read the document I linked.

    Oh, and as already mentioned I did read that. I just wasn't at all impressed with it.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #53 - January 03, 2012, 08:14 AM

    So what? It'd be more rewarding to tackle a language that I wanted to tackle.


    True -- I was just pointing out that if one of your goals was to reach native-like fluency in another language, then Esperanto would be a good choice.

    And I wouldn't necessarily want a language that was all nice and neat and logical. I actually like the fact that English is an illogical mess. Can't see why I wouldn't enjoy the same in another language.


    That's fun too, I agree. I'm still working on perfecting my French, and I enjoy learning about all the quirks and eccentricities and idiosyncrasies of the language.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #54 - January 03, 2012, 08:18 AM

    Oh, and as already mentioned I did read that. I just wasn't at all impressed with it.


    It doesn't show. From what you said, it seems that you're not even aware of the counterarguments to your points, much less any rebuttals thereof.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #55 - January 03, 2012, 08:19 AM

    True -- I was just pointing out that if one of your goals was to reach native-like fluency in another language, then Esperanto would be a good choice.

    It probably would, but it's not one that would interest me.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #56 - January 03, 2012, 08:28 AM

    It doesn't show. From what you said, it seems that you're not even aware of the counterarguments to your points, much less any rebuttals thereof.

    It may not show, but I did read it. The whole fear thing may apply to some people, but has nothing to do with my lack of interest in Esperanto, and the gist of the article was that anyone who isn't keen on Esperanto must be scared of it. I don't find it scary at all. It just reminds me of Trekkies in skivvies raving about how cool Klingon is.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #57 - January 03, 2012, 08:32 AM

    That was not at all the gist of the article...

    And... seriously? Klingon? That's what you're comparing Esperanto to?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #58 - January 03, 2012, 10:30 AM

    - Algerian Arabic
    - Modern Standard Arabic
    - Levantine Arabic
    - English
    - French
    - Esperanto (yeah, I can pretty much communicate in it now)


    Sorry baby, that's only three languages, plus one pseudo-language you're learning, and a couple of dialects Tongue

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #59 - January 03, 2012, 10:59 AM

    Would you consider someone who speaks both Spanish and Italian to speak 2 different languages? How about someone who speaks Hindi and Urdu?

    Consider then, that those are mutually intelligible to a large extent (especially Hindi/Urdu), while these "dialects" are not, for the most part. And no one but pan-Arabist ideologues calls them "dialects", anyway. Usually the term linguists use is "varieties of Arabic",

    Quote
    In sociolinguistics a variety, also called a lect, is a specific form of a language or language cluster. This may include languages, dialects, accents, registers, styles or other sociolinguistic variation, as well as the standard variety itself.[1] "Variety" avoids the terms language, which many people associate only with the standard language, and dialect, which is associated with non-standard varieties thought of as less prestigious or "correct" than the standard.[2]


    And, as I mentioned previously,

    Quote
    Some linguists do argue that the varieties of Arabic are different enough to qualify as separate languages in the way that French and Italian or German and Dutch do. However, as Reem Bassiouney points out, perhaps the difference between 'language' and 'variety' is to some degree political rather than linguistic.


    And... really? "Pseudo-language"? I don't even know why I take the time to respond to these baseless, a priori yet unfathomably self-assured assertions, but here goes:

    Quote
    The Hungarian Academy of Sciences found that Esperanto fulfilled all requirements of a living language.


    Esperanto (with 1-2 million speakers) is just behind Arabic (with 300 million speakers) in terms of the number of articles in their respective Wikipedias. In most years, there does not pass a single day without some sort of Esperanto conference or meeting somewhere on the planet. People have found love through Esperanto -- the number of native speakers (who were usually taught Esperanto as their first language because it was the only common language between their parents) is estimated to be around 1,000. Great works of literature have been translated into Esperanto, and have been written in Esperanto -- in fact, one Esperantist writer was shortlisted for the Nobel Prize in literature just before he passed away. Esperanto is often more expressive than national languages by virtue of its flexible schematic grammar and morphology, and it's more homogeneous than English. So don't you try telling me that it's a "pseudo-language".

    And yes, I'm in the process of learning it, but I can already confidently speak it.

    At any rate, it's just a number -- it's far more impressive to be able to speak Hungarian, Chinese and Latin, than Spanish, Italian and Portuguese.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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