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Theme Changer

 Topic: Esperanto!

 (Read 10311 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #60 - January 03, 2012, 11:01 AM

    Oh, wow, that ^ was my 2500th post!

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #61 - January 03, 2012, 11:14 AM

    ^ And that's your 2501st! parrot

    07:54 <harakaat>: you must be jema
    07:54 <harakaat>: considering how annoying you are
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #62 - January 03, 2012, 11:18 AM

    lol

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #63 - January 03, 2012, 04:01 PM

    Again, the problem with your analysis is that you haven't actually tried learning Esperanto. If you had, you'd have noticed that in 95% of everyday speech, only 500 base morphemes are used. Using of a flexible and innovative system of suffixes and affixes, you can create new words from these. With Interlingua, you have to keep track of all the words, and in which form they appear (for example, you might feel like writing "developmento" when the correct word in Interlingua is "disveloppamento", you might remember "distachate" as something closer to the English "detached" or the French "detaché"). In Esperanto, as soon as you learn the word for "new", nova, you automatically know the word for "old", malnova. Also, you should keep in mind that, if you speak one of the Romance languages, you're one of the lucky few -- only around 15% of the people in the world speak a Romance language.

    No, the problem with my analysis is that it disagrees with your fanboy viewpoint.

    I am not arguing that Esperanto is not grammatically easier than Interlingua on paper.
    I am saying that writing Esperanto is not necessarily easier FOR EVERYONE than writing Interlingua.

    Besides, I could argue that syntactically easier languages require more and more symbols to convey the same amount of information of syntactically more complex languages.
    The amount of memorizing required for being able to convey the same detail of information in every language is probably identical.
    The easier the vocabulary and grammar are, the more you have to rely on idiomatic expressions to express details that in a more complex language could be exposed by using complex tenses/declensions/synonyms, etcetera...

    If you happen to also know computer languages, you should know that Assembly is, syntactically, a joke to learn compared to C++
    Yet, for most algorithms, writing a solution in Assembly is a pain in the ass compared to C++.

    So, after having read the structure of both languages, I don't disagree that Esperanto grammar is way easier than Interlingua.
    I disagree with you saying that it would require me less time to learn Esperanto than Interlingua for reaching a level of expression comparable to my native language (which is, syntactically, closer to Interlingua than Esperanto).
    Interlingua has the added bonus of being understood by hundreds of millions of people without having learned it.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #64 - January 03, 2012, 07:21 PM

    That was not at all the gist of the article...

    And... seriously? Klingon? That's what you're comparing Esperanto to?

    Yup. yes

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #65 - January 03, 2012, 11:20 PM

    No, the problem with my analysis is that it disagrees with your fanboy viewpoint.


    It may disagree with my fanboy viewpoint, but that's not why it's wrong.

    I am not arguing that Esperanto is not grammatically easier than Interlingua on paper.
    I am saying that writing Esperanto is not necessarily easier FOR EVERYONE than writing Interlingua.


    And you're saying this from the position of someone who has tried learning neither language.

    Besides, I could argue that syntactically easier languages require more and more symbols to convey the same amount of information of syntactically more complex languages.


    And you'd be wrong -- that's a complete non-sequitur. Much of the "information" that syntactically complex languages convey is grammatical, not semantic, and often superfluous. Take conjugation, for example. In French you have je suis, tu es, il est, elle est, nous sommes, vous êtes, ils sont, and elles sont. In Arabic it's even more complicated. In English you have just am, is and are. In Esperanto you have just one conjugation, with exactly zero ambiguity. Why? Because language works that way.

    The amount of memorizing required for being able to convey the same detail of information in every language is probably identical.


    No it isn't! Have you ever tried learning a language?!

    The easier the vocabulary and grammar are, the more you have to rely on idiomatic expressions to express details that in a more complex language could be exposed by using complex tenses/declensions/synonyms, etcetera...


    Again, you make such patently false claims that you would know are ridiculous if you had spent just a week trying to learn Esperanto (it helps to have tried learning other languages so you could compare.) Idiomatic expressions, while they do exist in Esperanto (it's a living language, after all), are not that common, and due to the design of the language are never necessary to express what you want to say. You're making the completely unfounded assumption that grammatical complexity carries with it semantic complexity, when this is very often not the case. For example, it would take you twice as many words to say "Ni biciklos urben" (We will go to the city by bike) in Arabic, a much, much more grammatically complex language, and almost THRICE as many words to express the same idea in English. And it requires grasping fewer linguistic concepts to express in Esperanto. Of course, this is only the tip of the ice-berg -- every DAY I see an Esperanto word, that due to Esperanto's unique system of morphology, astounds me with its expressive terseness.

    If you happen to also know computer languages, you should know that Assembly is, syntactically, a joke to learn compared to C++
    Yet, for most algorithms, writing a solution in Assembly is a pain in the ass compared to C++.


    You're right, but it's fallacious to propose that as a valid analogy. Assembly and C++ are different tools for different tasks. Assembly is good for its own thang, machine-level, memory-conscious tinkering, and C++ is good for its own thang, developing higher-level programs. But they're apples and oranges, unlike most languages. Take Python, for example -- its syntax is much, much, much easier than C++s, and for applications where you don't need the memory-management power of C++, it's often a better choice. If I asked you to write a prime-number generator, what language would you pick? Probably Python. Similarly, Esperanto, purely linguistically speaking, is often a better language for expressing complex thoughts than most national languages, because it was designed for optimum flexibility. And yes, there are languages that are even better than Esperanto in this domain, such as Ithkuil, but they tend to be conlangs too.

    So, after having read the structure of both languages, I don't disagree that Esperanto grammar is way easier than Interlingua.
    I disagree with you saying that it would require me less time to learn Esperanto than Interlingua for reaching a level of expression comparable to my native language (which is, syntactically, closer to Interlingua than Esperanto).


    You reach that conclusion without even trying to learn either language. Consider this table:

    Esperanto   Interlingua   English
    sana   san   healthy
    sano   sanitate   health
    malsana   malade   sick, unhealthy
    malsano   maladia   malady, illness, disease
    malsanulejo   hospital   hospital
    saniĝi   recovrar   to become healthy, recover
    sanigi   curar   to make healthy, cure
    malsaniĝi   cader malade   to become sick, fall ill

    You need to know at least FIVE different roots to express all those concepts in Interlingua. You need to know just ONE root in Esperanto, and how the affixes work. Also, good luck keeping track of all the right forms of the words (which were chosen using a painstaking methodology centered on intelligibility, and not consistency or ease of learning.) Again, this reflects how Interlingua was designed for ease of understanding. I'm not saying Interlingua is a bad language. I'm not even saying that Esperanto is better. I'm just saying that you're judging Interlingua by Esperanto standards, and here it clearly falls short.

    If you want to prove me wrong, go ahead and learn both Esperanto and Interlingua for two weeks each and tell us honestly which one you found easier to express yourself in. I promise I'll take your word for it.

    Interlingua has the added bonus of being understood by hundreds of millions of people without having learned it.


    That's true. And if that's something that appeals to you, then learn Interlingua.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #66 - January 03, 2012, 11:21 PM

    Yup. yes


    I'm too sleepy to be indignant.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #67 - January 04, 2012, 12:52 AM

    Also, regarding your "tragic" comment, the prefix "mal-" is sometimes used both in English and French to signify the opposite of the word it is attached to:

    Quote
    English

    Etymology
    From Old French mal- from the Latin adverb male from malus.
    Prefix
    mal-
    bad, badly as in maladjusted, malcontent - faulty, faultily as in malfunction
    not


    Quote
    Français

     Étymologie
    → voir mal.
    Préfixe
    mal- /mal/
    Préfixe signifiant que le mot signifie le contraire de son signifié normal ou, accolé à un verbe, que le verbe préfixé est mal fait.


    Yes, we should all tear our eyes out because it's so tragic that words evolve.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #68 - January 04, 2012, 12:55 AM

    As a side note, there is in Esperanto a suffix that indicates poor quality, -aĉ. Eg. domo = house, while domaĉo = hovel.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #69 - January 04, 2012, 01:35 AM

    I'm too sleepy to be indignant.

    Ok. Smiley

    And BTW, you shot yourself in the foot re the mal prefix. As the quote you posted makes clear, maladjusted means badly adjusted. It does not mean "not adjusted", and it is not the opposite of adjusted.

    lrn2english kthnx. Tongue

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #70 - January 04, 2012, 01:45 AM

    Did you miss the part at the end where it gives "not" as the second meaning?

    lrn2read

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #71 - January 04, 2012, 01:45 AM

    It's badly formatted, but the last two lines are the two different meanings.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #72 - January 04, 2012, 01:48 AM

    Did you miss the part at the end where it gives "not" as the second meaning?

    lrn2read

    Give an actual example from teh Ingerrish. Kthnx. Tongue

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #73 - January 04, 2012, 01:52 AM

    mal·a·droit   [mal-uh-droit]  Show IPA
    adjective
    lacking in adroitness; unskillful

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #74 - January 04, 2012, 01:54 AM

    Pfft. Just means badly adroit ffs. bunny

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #75 - January 04, 2012, 01:59 AM

    Quote
    Pronunciation
    (US) IPA: /ˌmæl.əˈdrɔɪt/
    [edit]Adjective
    maladroit (comparative more maladroit, superlative most maladroit)
    Not adroit; clumsy; inept; awkward.


    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #76 - January 04, 2012, 02:00 AM

    Ha. Americans. What would they know about English?  cool2

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #77 - January 04, 2012, 02:01 AM

     Cheesy

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #78 - January 04, 2012, 02:02 AM

    So I'm right then.  dance

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #79 - January 04, 2012, 02:03 AM

    Of course now you're faced with the issue of justifying why Australians would know more about English than Americans Tongue

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #80 - January 04, 2012, 02:04 AM

    At least we can spell it correctly. That would indicate a greater familiarity. Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #81 - January 04, 2012, 02:10 AM

    Anyway, I figured you would go for maladroit when I demanded an example. It's the only one I can think of offhand, but I was curious to see if you could come up with any others. 

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #82 - January 04, 2012, 02:15 AM

    At least we can spell it correctly. That would indicate a greater familiarity. Wink


    Frankly, anyone who writes "diarrhoea" deserves to be bludgeoned with an Indian club.

    Anyway, I figured you would go for maladroit when I demanded an example. It's the only one I can think of offhand, but I was curious to see if you could come up with any others. 


    There's also "malcontent", I guess.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #83 - January 04, 2012, 02:20 AM

    Yeah, that'd work.

    Ok, so now I get to be really annoying and claim that these two are the exceptions that prove the rule, and the rule is that the prefix "mal" means bad just like I said, so I win so there. Cheesy

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #84 - January 04, 2012, 02:22 AM

    FUCK, my mom does that ALL THE TIME!

    Mom: Jews suck.
    harakaat: But I know many really nice Jews!
    Mom: Oh, they're the exceptions that PROVE the rule! [as though what I said actually strengthened her point!]

    IT'S SO INFURIATING!!!

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #85 - January 04, 2012, 02:24 AM

    And the thing is, she usually says it in French, and in a really pretentious way!

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #86 - January 04, 2012, 02:24 AM

     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Ok, I'll concede that in rare cases, the prefix "mal" does mean "not" in English.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #87 - January 04, 2012, 02:35 AM

    Yay, I'm now halfway through converting you to the cause! I'll throw in 144 virgins and a couple of cookies as well.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #88 - January 04, 2012, 02:42 AM

    Meh. I'd still rather learn Na'vi. Avatar  was way cool and had flying lizards n shit. dance

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Esperanto!
     Reply #89 - January 04, 2012, 02:58 AM

    Yeah, Avatar was cool Tongue

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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