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 Topic: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah

 (Read 5560 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     OP - January 19, 2012, 04:55 PM
    i get the impression that it's not really a strong argument against Islam, and that the only people who bring it up are the haters.

    is this accurate?
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #1 - January 19, 2012, 05:16 PM
    It is a genuine tactic of lying to either further the cause of Islam, such as when a  muslim leader says one thing to a western audience, and then immediately states the opposite to fellow muslims, or to prevent a muslim from coming to harm (primarily a shia thing).

    Other than the genuinely weasly leadership (sadly too common), it is nowhere near as common as the likes of Robert Spencer would have us believe.
    I've been driven mad trying to prove my sanity
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #2 - January 19, 2012, 05:19 PM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on January 19, 2012, 04:55 PM
    i get the impression that it's not really a strong argument against Islam, and that the only people who bring it up are the haters.

    is this accurate?


    Not at all. They act like they just prance around with halos on their head as if everyone is just out to shoot them with a gun when they actually think like that. It's absolutely childish and it's even more difficult to control the rage at them when they do something wrong. They don't realise their position in humanity.
    "I measured the skies, now the shadows I measure,
    Sky-bound was the mind, earth-bound the body rests."
    [Kepler's epitaph]
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #3 - January 19, 2012, 05:19 PM
    People lie. There is no special type of Muslim lie.

    The reason why it's a stupid argument is because the Quran strictly forbids lying. It is one of the big sins.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #4 - January 19, 2012, 05:29 PM
    The problem with stating that the quran forbids lying is that, in the quran's usual self-contradictory manner, it also appears to condone it (towards us infidels at least)
    I've been driven mad trying to prove my sanity
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #5 - January 19, 2012, 05:31 PM
    Where?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #6 - January 19, 2012, 05:46 PM
    Lying is explicitly sanctioned by the Sunnah in three cases: in marriage, in resolving disputes, and in war.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #7 - January 19, 2012, 05:54 PM
    The majority of Muslims don't know WTF Taqiyah is, and they don't practice it either. I've noticed that certain "evangelical Christians/Atheists" bring up Taqiyah to make Muslims look bad, which is stupid and ignorant of them.
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #8 - January 19, 2012, 06:02 PM
    Quote from: harakaat on January 19, 2012, 05:46 PM
    Lying is explicitly sanctioned by the Sunnah in three cases: in marriage, in resolving disputes, and in war.

    You're not telling the whole story, though. Ironically.

    Lying in war is only permitted under duress, when your life is threatened for example. That's a point in favour of Islam. Lying to secure peace isn't exactly a good point of attack either. You're essentially arguing against a good thing. As for marriage, that's all you've got really. And it's more nuanced than simply 'lying is permitted in marriage'. It's something specific about slaves, but I can't be arsed to look it up.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #9 - January 19, 2012, 06:04 PM
    Read the tafsirs for quran 3:28 for a pretty solid concensus that lying is permissable to unbelievers if they fear danger. That could quite easily be considered danger of being prevented from planning acts of terrorism etc obviously. It seems to have been appropriated in dawah as well though.
    I've been driven mad trying to prove my sanity
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #10 - January 19, 2012, 06:11 PM
    Well, here's 3:28

    Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

    What's your opinion on it? Does it support what you just said?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #11 - January 19, 2012, 06:17 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on January 19, 2012, 06:02 PM
    You're not telling the whole story, though. Ironically.

    Lying in war is only permitted under duress, when your life is threatened for example. That's a point in favour of Islam. Lying to secure peace isn't exactly a good point of attack either. You're essentially arguing against a good thing. As for marriage, that's all you've got really. And it's more nuanced than simply 'lying is permitted in marriage'. It's something specific about slaves, but I can't be arsed to look it up.


    Uh, not really, I practically translated the hadeeth word for word.

    Quote
    سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول: ليس الكذاب الذي يصلح بين الناس فينمي خيرا أو يقول خيرا. وفي رواية: ولم أسمعه يرخص في شيء مما يقول الناس إلا في ثلاث: تعني الحرب، والإصلاح بين الناس، وحديث الرجل امرأته، وحديث المرأة زوجها.


    (Sahih Bukhari and Muslim)

    Anyway, I wasn't "attacking" Islam, just pointing this stuff out -- not making any judgments. There's another hadeeth that says, quite pithily, "War is deceit". And there's a third hadeeth that's used to justify lying in that situation that talks about how when Muhammad was travelling, and some dude from some opposing tribe saw him and asked him where he was from, he answered with a double-entendre that made the dude think he was from Iraq, when Muhammad "meant" that he was created "from water".
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #12 - January 19, 2012, 06:25 PM
    But read onwards from that hadith...

    Sahih Muslim
    Book 032, Number 6306:
    'Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported that Muhammad (may peace be upon him) said: Should I inform you that slandering, that is in fact a tale-carrying which creates dissension amongst people, (and) he (further) said: The person tells the truth until he is recorded as truthful, and lie tells a lie until lie is recorded as a liar.

    Book 032, Number 6307:
    'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Truth leads one to Paradise and virtue leads one to Paradise and the person tells the truth until he is recorded as truthful, and lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell, and the person tells a lie until he is recorded as a liar.

    Book 032, Number 6308:
    'Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Telling of truth is a virtue and virtue leads to Paradise and the servant who endeavours to tell the truth is recorded as truthful, and lie is obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell-Fire, and the servant who endeavours to tell a lie is recorded as a liar. Ibn Abu Shaiba reported this from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him).

    Book 032, Number 6309:
    'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: It is obligatory for you to tell the truth, for truth leads to virtue and virtue leads to Paradise, and the man who continues to speak the truth and endeavours to tell the truth is eventually recorded as truthful with Allah, and beware of telling of a lie for telling of a lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell-Fire, and the person who keeps telling lies and endeavours to tell a lie is recorded as a liar with Allah.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #13 - January 19, 2012, 06:32 PM
    I wonder if Muslims ever take verses this seriously..
    "I measured the skies, now the shadows I measure,
    Sky-bound was the mind, earth-bound the body rests."
    [Kepler's epitaph]
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #14 - January 19, 2012, 06:35 PM
    Reading Islamic scripture is the number one cause of apostasy.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #15 - January 19, 2012, 06:48 PM
    al-taqiya

    Al-taqiya is well known and well accepted with-in Islamic  sects such as Shia, Islamailis in Pakistan and Afghanistan., Off course  they support it  using Quran as well as hadith., It is irrelevant and it is not known/ that common in Sunni Dominated Islamic nations and irrelevant in fighting rubbish in Islam through websites..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #16 - January 19, 2012, 06:52 PM
    I am only going by the way it is applied by some of the most slimy individuals, not the everyday average muslim, and by ibn Kathir's commentary. You have to remember that islamic texts are ridiculously contradictory and just about every angle of every situation (at least as was known about in the 8th century) is both banned and justified in either the quran and/or hadiths if you look hard enough . This one is just one that is used by some muslims, but nowhere near as much as it is implied by haters.
    I've been driven mad trying to prove my sanity
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #17 - January 19, 2012, 06:56 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on January 19, 2012, 06:25 PM
    But read onwards from that hadith...

    Sahih Muslim
    Book 032, Number 6306:
    'Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported that Muhammad (may peace be upon him) said: Should I inform you that slandering, that is in fact a tale-carrying which creates dissension amongst people, (and) he (further) said: The person tells the truth until he is recorded as truthful, and lie tells a lie until lie is recorded as a liar.

    Book 032, Number 6307:
    'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Truth leads one to Paradise and virtue leads one to Paradise and the person tells the truth until he is recorded as truthful, and lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell, and the person tells a lie until he is recorded as a liar.

    Book 032, Number 6308:
    'Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Telling of truth is a virtue and virtue leads to Paradise and the servant who endeavours to tell the truth is recorded as truthful, and lie is obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell-Fire, and the servant who endeavours to tell a lie is recorded as a liar. Ibn Abu Shaiba reported this from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him).

    Book 032, Number 6309:
    'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: It is obligatory for you to tell the truth, for truth leads to virtue and virtue leads to Paradise, and the man who continues to speak the truth and endeavours to tell the truth is eventually recorded as truthful with Allah, and beware of telling of a lie for telling of a lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell-Fire, and the person who keeps telling lies and endeavours to tell a lie is recorded as a liar with Allah.



    I don't see why you're quoting those hadeeths; it's not like I said lying in general wasn't frowned upon in Islam.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #18 - January 19, 2012, 06:56 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on January 19, 2012, 06:35 PM
    Reading Islamic scripture is the number one cause of apostasy.


    +1
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #19 - January 19, 2012, 07:01 PM
    It's actually something that scares me sometimes. What if Islam wasn't as obviously immoral as it is? What if it wasn't so patently patriarchal, homophobic, and science incompatible? I might still be following it, not realizing it was man-made, and that's a frightening prospect. We're lucky it happens to be at such odds with modern knowledge and modern ethics.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #20 - January 19, 2012, 07:27 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on January 19, 2012, 06:35 PM
    Reading Islamic scripture is the number one cause of apostasy.


    Sig worthy!
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #21 - January 19, 2012, 07:29 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on January 19, 2012, 06:35 PM
    Reading Islamic scripture is the number one cause of apostasy.


    But it's not that simple. Imam's/Mullahs/Scholars have a rationalization for everything in the Quran, and Muslims will believe them.
  • Re: Can anybody briefly summarise the deal with taqiyah
     Reply #22 - January 19, 2012, 09:13 PM
    ^ Only intellectually dishonest/disinterested ones.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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