Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Gaza assault
by zeca
Yesterday at 07:13 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
November 22, 2024, 02:51 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
November 21, 2024, 05:07 PM

New Britain
November 20, 2024, 05:41 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
November 20, 2024, 09:02 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: ‘How do atheists find meaning in life?’

 (Read 4676 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • ‘How do atheists find meaning in life?’
     OP - January 19, 2012, 10:28 PM

    I just came across this article, and thought it might be of interest to some of you (see below). Reading it, I was reminded of a wonderful quote from the late Christopher Hitchens. Hitch writes:

    Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more.” (The Portable Atheist: Essential Readings for the Non-Believer, 2007)


    ‘How do atheists find meaning in life?’ Paula Kirby

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-faith/post/how-do-atheist-find-meaning-in-life/2012/01/18/gIQAbiFP8P_blog.html

    The correspondent was blunt: “Why don’t you atheists just go out and kill yourselves right now?”
    True, most Christians phrase it rather more delicately, but atheists are regularly informed by a certain kind of believer that our lives can have no value if we do not believe in their God. What is the point, they ask, of being kind or loving, caring about suffering or doing anything at all, if one day we just die?
    It is true that in the absence of a divine plan our lives have no externally determined purpose: an individual is not born for the purpose of becoming a physician or creating a spectacular work of art or digging a well in an arid corner of Africa. But are the sick less cured, the pleasure to the art-lover less intense, or the thirst of parched villagers less slaked, simply because a man sought his own purpose rather than following a diktat from on high? Do we really need a deity to tell us that a life spent curing cancer is more worthwhile than one spent drinking in the gutter?
    Why should we not find satisfaction in alleviating suffering or injustice, just because we’re all going to die one day? The very fact that this life is all we have makes it even more important to do everything possible to reduce the suffering caused by poverty, disease, injustice and ignorance. To describe such attempts as meaningless is to say that avoidable suffering does not matter, hardly a moral stance.
    Many Christians claim we have no reason to care about others if there is no God. But this is itself a religious claim, arising from the theological concept of Original Sin, which declares humankind fallen and corrupt. We can safely ignore it, for in reality we do not need childish stories of eternal reward or damnation to coerce us into being good: research shows that the least religious societies have the lowest incidence of social ills, including crime and violence. Healthy humans have empathy built in, and the explanations for this lie in psychology and evolutionary biology: no gods required.
    Life cannot be meaningless so long as we have the capacity to affect the well-being of ourselves and others. For true meaninglessness, we would need heaven.
    In the state of permanent, perfect bliss that is the very definition of heaven, ‘making a difference’ is ruled out. If the difference made an improvement, the previous state could not have been perfect. If it made things worse, the result would not be perfect. In heaven, neither is possible. Even being reunited with loved ones could not add one jot to their bliss or yours, for heaven would be, by definition, a state that could not be improved on.
    Just consider for a moment the hellish pointlessness of heaven. At least in our real existence our actions have an effect, for better or worse, and it is therefore worth trying to get them right. In an eternal life where we can have no effect whatsoever, we might as well be dead.
    If you have ever claimed that your life would have no meaning if it weren’t for your faith in God, do you really believe your family and friends have no worth in their own right? Can you really not see the point in striving to protect and nurture your children, even if there is no eternal life? Really?
    If you do, then it is you, not atheists, who debase humanity, and it is Christianity, not atheism, that diminishes the real value and meaning of life. We atheists find purpose in the world as it is, and in our real lives; we see living beings as valuable in their own right, deserving of our concern and compassion simply because they share our capacity for pain and pleasure. It is hard to imagine a position less moral, less conducive to empathy, than this inherently warped and uncharitable view of humanity proposed by Christianity.
    This is a perverse view of reality. After all, if the only valuable thing about existence is that God gave it to us, then that must mean the gift is not worth having in its own right. God’s creation would be the equivalent of a shapeless, baggy sweater of dubious color that you would never willingly wear but which you nevertheless can’t bring yourself to throw away because it was a gift from Granny. This approach in effect says you’re grateful for God’s gift, but you don’t actually like it very much; that, were it not for your belief that there’ll be an eternity in heaven to compensate you for having had to endure it, you can see no reason why you’d ever want it.
    Theistic religion reduces life to something that has no value other than as the creation of an imagined deity. It decrees that purpose and meaning can only be found in being that deity’s puppet, having no purpose but its purpose and no value other than as its handiwork. Theistic religion looks on all that is best and most noble in human impulse and endeavour and dismisses it as meaningless and worthless --or worse: corrupt --unless done in the name of God. It is time to abandon this baseless worldview. It is time to reject theistic religion and start viewing ourselves and others with real dignity, as beings with value in our own right and not just as the distorted shadows of a fictional creator.
  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #1 - January 19, 2012, 10:48 PM

    Thank you for posting this... I don't have much to add at the moment but this is a subject i have considered and discussed quite a bit in the past. The answer to the question seems a lot more obvious to me than if one were to ask "what is the meaning of a life lived only to obey a faceless god with a promise but no guarantee of eternal bliss?"



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #2 - January 19, 2012, 10:58 PM

    A mysterious, unexplained universe is so much more meaningful than any shallow, nebulous, impossible, incomprehensible, nonsensical, contradictory or redundant god hypothesis.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #3 - January 19, 2012, 11:01 PM


    The idea that religious people have 'meaning' whereas those who don't believe in their kind of divinity don't, is erroneous.

    The whole starting point is false to begin with.

    It suggests that 'meaning' resides in god-belief and religion.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #4 - January 19, 2012, 11:05 PM

    A central problem with the idea of 'finding' meaning is the assumption that meaning is external to us and that we must strive for it. The meaning of life is life itself and every moment spent finding something else is taking away from living that life.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #5 - January 19, 2012, 11:16 PM

    Quote
    A central problem with the idea of 'finding' meaning is the assumption that meaning is external to us and that we must strive for it. The meaning of life is life itself and every moment spent finding something else is taking away from living that life.


    I also sometimes wonder why is it so necessary to 'find meaning' in one's life.... isn't living meaningful in itself?



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #6 - January 19, 2012, 11:17 PM


    Yes, it is.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #7 - January 19, 2012, 11:18 PM

    ^indeed

    thank you simon..
  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #8 - January 19, 2012, 11:34 PM

    There is also the strange idea that things have to have cosmic meaning, or they don't have meaning at all.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #9 - January 19, 2012, 11:52 PM

    What I find deeply confusing is how they consider it meaningful to think that the universe holds some sort of special purpose for them and they go through most of their time that it's incomprehensible too.

    "I measured the skies, now the shadows I measure,
    Sky-bound was the mind, earth-bound the body rests."
    [Kepler's epitaph]
  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #10 - January 19, 2012, 11:59 PM

    There is also the strange idea that things have to have cosmic meaning, or they don't have meaning at all.

    I regard things as meaningless but not pointless. There's a difference, and some people (like many theists) seem to find it impossible to grasp.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #11 - January 20, 2012, 01:18 AM

    There is also the strange idea that things have to have cosmic meaning, or they don't have meaning at all.


    There is also this strange perception that things in our life are not valuable if we haven't obtained them in a hard way. So if we haven't suffered ,the final outcome has no meaning.
    I guess that's the result of Chistian influence on the world.

    Isn't it funny how cats can understand people without ever reading a single psychology book?
  • Re: ‘How do atheists find meaning in life?’
     Reply #12 - January 24, 2012, 10:50 PM

    i don't understand people who say that lol, if anything life is more valuable for atheists. my lack of belief has motivated me to try to have more fun in life before it's too late, not get sad because my life has "no meaning."
  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #13 - January 24, 2012, 11:20 PM

    .
  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #14 - January 24, 2012, 11:35 PM

    The idea that religious people have 'meaning' whereas those who don't believe in their kind of divinity don't, is erroneous.


    Yes. Just like atheists, people who believe in gods make their own purpose in life. How many times have you heard singers, writers, athletes, etc. thank god for giving them the ability to do what they do? It was god’s purpose to have you win a running competition? Please. That’s a purpose YOU’VE decided and thanked god for.

    Most religious people have no purpose, the same as us, but simply trust and have faith that somehow god will have a purpose for them, or vindicate their own existence in Heaven afterwards.
  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #15 - January 25, 2012, 12:08 AM

    .
  • Re: ‘How do atheists find meaning in life?’
     Reply #16 - January 25, 2012, 12:18 AM

    ^In the end there's no difference, everyone chooses their own purpose in the end even if someone is deluded enough to believe they were guided to it by a higher power. It's just religious people attribute god to the way they choose to live and whilst atheists don't.
  • Re: ‘How do atheists find meaning in life?’
     Reply #17 - January 25, 2012, 09:07 AM

    I was amazed to find that original sin is not a doctrine accepted by all xians.  I strongly recommend Martin Palmer Jesus Sutras, about how some monks arrived in seventh century China and how the Taoist Emperor allowed them to build a church on what was really a religious theme park.  It is still there!

    I want to respond to this thread with a few more books - Satre, Existentialism and Humanism, Dawkins, Magic of Reality, and Rachel Carlson Sense of Wonder.

    I strongly recommend some star gazing, and gaining a basic understanding of the size of this universe, that we are probably in a black hole producing universe, a side effect of this type of universe being life, and how we are here at the end of a 14 billion year process, stuck on the edge of a not particularly special galaxy, carrying around on our shoulders an incredibly "complex" piece of kit.

    And that this funny primate has evolved language, the ability to discuss and share and co-operate.

    And one of our inventions is religion, with fascinating structures and rituals and rules, with all sorts of wierd implications.

    And this strange concept that some form of imaginary friend (imaginary dictator?) will give structure and meaning, kind of freezing us instead of allowing appropriate phase changes between plasma, gas, liquids and solids.

    It is like arguing that an anchored ship, tied to a dock, is a true ship, when it is actually the Cutty Sark sailing at full speed.

    Is Islam an extreme puritan sect of xianity, zoroastrianism and Judaism, really into heaven and hell and sin?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #18 - January 25, 2012, 09:15 AM

    I don't see how theists still have that part in their ego telling them that it's either nihilism or absolute purpose when they're both the same thing. Most of them seem like lazy assholes who don't even put in the effort to understand the various alternatives to their dogmatic ideas that we have now.

    "I measured the skies, now the shadows I measure,
    Sky-bound was the mind, earth-bound the body rests."
    [Kepler's epitaph]
  • Re: ‘How do atheists find meaning in life?’
     Reply #19 - January 25, 2012, 10:46 AM

    Quote
    either nihilism or absolute purpose when they're both the same thing.


    Is religion a huge structure to not do or learn anything?  An excuse to be lazy writ large?


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #20 - January 25, 2012, 02:31 PM

    the question asserts that there has to be a meaning to life. This doesn't have to be the case
  • Re: ?How do atheists find meaning in life??
     Reply #21 - January 25, 2012, 04:51 PM

    Is religion a huge structure to not do or learn anything?  An excuse to be lazy writ large?


    I'm just talking about what they think and they officiously speak of it like there is no other option and I see it as a reflection of their own thoughts. They also see subjective meaning as a sort of nihilism but their ego baffles me sometimes.

    "I measured the skies, now the shadows I measure,
    Sky-bound was the mind, earth-bound the body rests."
    [Kepler's epitaph]
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »