kalam cosmological argument

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- Azdaha ExMuslim
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kalam cosmological argument
OP - February 01, 2012, 07:53 PM

if i m not wrong this is kalam cosmological argument

1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause
2) Universe beings to exist
3) Universe has a cause and that is god

I argue with them like this

"Okay I agree that universe begins to exist , but not everything in this universe we observe begins to exist , as we have a law 'energy can neither be created nor destroyed'

1) why the cause of universe cannot be energy ?
2) why it has to be a conscious being to be the cause of universe?
3) why it has to be only one cause and not multiple that can exists in parallel ?

are my arguments right ?

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- sturmgewehr
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Re: kalam cosmological argument
Reply #1 - February 02, 2012, 01:07 AM

Here you go something very good I found recently:

http://angramainyusblog.blogspot.com/2012/01/kalam-cosmological-argument-once-again.html
- yeezevee
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Re: kalam cosmological argument
Reply #2 - February 02, 2012, 01:31 AM

Quote from: Azdaha ExMuslim on February 01, 2012, 07:53 PM
if i m not wrong this is kalam cosmological argument

1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause
2) Universe beings to exist
3) Universe has a cause and that is god

I argue with them like this

"Okay I agree that universe begins to exist , but not everything in this universe we observe begins to exist , as we have a law 'energy can neither be created nor destroyed'

1) why the cause of universe cannot be energy ?
2) why it has to be a conscious being to be the cause of universe?
3) why it has to be only one cause and not multiple that can exists in parallel ?

are my arguments right ?

The origins of Kalam/Discussions/discourses/debates is nothing to do with Islam/Quran/Hadith that was allegedly started or alleged words of Muhammad. This Kalam started at least 100 years after the death of Muhammad. It is nothing to do with Islam. In fact Muslim folks with common sense started it Inspite of Islam not due to Islam.

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- sturmgewehr
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Re: kalam cosmological argument
Reply #3 - February 02, 2012, 11:02 AM

@ yeezeve:

Do you have that book in PDF format?
- yeezevee
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Re: kalam cosmological argument
Reply #4 - February 02, 2012, 11:13 AM

Quote from: sturmgewehr on February 02, 2012, 11:02 AM
@ yeezeve:

Do you have that book in PDF format?

you seem to read lots of stuff dear sturmgewehr.

down load it from here..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- sturmgewehr
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Re: kalam cosmological argument
Reply #5 - February 02, 2012, 12:23 PM

@ yeezeve:

You are the man and you know it

Thanks a lot
- yeezevee
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Re: kalam cosmological argument
Reply #6 - February 02, 2012, 12:51 PM

Quote from: sturmgewehr on February 02, 2012, 12:23 PM
............

Thanks .................

This thread is discussing a very important subject that is often neglected to discuss and tell the truth to the world dear sturmgewehr. Very few know about this subject including those intellectual Muslims. The point is it is very important for Muslims, Non-Muslims, Zebras, Dogs, cats and baboons with beards learn about the subjects like origins of Kalam in Islam or Gold - Golden times-Golden Science of early Islam after the Caliphs the son in-laws and father in-laws of Muhammad... The in-breeding heroes of Islam get killed.

Muslim intellectuals consider Quran is from Kalam of Allah, that means Allah penned the Quran. But with reference to Abrahamic religions the origins of Kalam is actually from Judaism. Off course by default our Muslim Intellectuals making Abraham, Moses, Jesus as Prophets of Islam, they consider "Kalam" is from Quran/Muhammad/Islam. That is so funny to think, not only Muslims/Islam usurped philosophical thoughts of other religions, (they still doing it) but also they took over THE REAL ESTATE such as Mosques in Jerusalem. Muslims/Islam considering Islam as Abraham religion by default, they can take over/convert All Judea-Christian lands in to Islamic nations and their churches/Jewish temples in to Mosques. Islam is a total package to take over books , men, women and property in the name of Allah for the sake of Allah.. lol..

Usurping good stuff and philosophical thoughts of other religions is OK, but when you start aiming at women and real estate of other religious folks and you do that in the name of Allah/God then wars/problems human genocides sets in ., well that is real life., Any ways going back to Kalam, let me add few links here from Islamic perspective.

The Classical Islamic Arguments for the Existence of God by Majid Fakhry

Tawhid: Kalam cosmological argument, Early Islamic philosophy

Time in Islamic Kalam

well that is enough to start with ...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- sturmgewehr
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Re: kalam cosmological argument
Reply #7 - February 02, 2012, 11:42 PM

^^

Are those Pro KCA or Against the Kalam Argument? I don't think I am willing to read another pro KCA paper, the KCA is flawed anyways.
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Re: kalam cosmological argument
Reply #8 - February 04, 2012, 06:44 PM

demise one is factually incorrect. People really need to learn about quantum mechanics.
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Re: kalam cosmological argument
Reply #9 - February 06, 2012, 09:40 PM

Quote
demise one is factually incorrect. People really need to learn about quantum mechanics.

not everyone can do that eh ?..... and I assume you are talking about Virtual particals ?

Lost somewhere between immensity and eternity is our tiny planetary home. [carl sagan]
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Re: kalam cosmological argument
Reply #10 - February 07, 2012, 12:46 AM

I am no physicist, but from my own layman research I gathered there are so-called "stochastic" (random) processes in quantum physics. Radioactive decay, for example; it's impossible to predict when a particular atom will decay. Whether or not such processes constitute enough support for the notion of 'uncaused events' is debatable though, I think.

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Re: kalam cosmological argument
Reply #11 - February 12, 2012, 09:41 PM

It doesnt matter because the conclusion is inherently faulty.
It's just a cosmological 'god of the gaps' argument. Nothing more, nothing less

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
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Re: kalam cosmological argument
Reply #12 - February 12, 2012, 09:57 PM

It doesn't matter because the initial premise is flawed, before you even get anywhere near the conclusion.

"1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause"

There is no possible way that you can definitively prove that this will be true in all possible cases. It's an attempt to extrapolate our everyday notions of cause and effect far outside of the realms in which we can prove they apply.

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Re: kalam cosmological argument
Reply #13 - February 12, 2012, 10:03 PM

You are correct.

The universe has a cause (this does not imply said cause was space ghost....but anyway), that is largely accepted.
However, that everything has a cause is not, especially given that "everything" includes things outside of this universe.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: kalam cosmological argument
Reply #14 - February 12, 2012, 10:33 PM

anyway,
I prefer the Kazam cosmological argument instead

and that cause was a Shaq Attack!

why not, makes as much sense

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
- sturmgewehr
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Re: kalam cosmological argument
Reply #15 - March 25, 2012, 03:09 PM

this is interesting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9DLcTfYBcQ&feature=player_embedded
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