Sea barrier bullshit

1« Previous thread | Next thread »
- dr_sloth
- Pub Regular
- Orthodox Atheist
- offline
Sea barrier bullshit
OP - February 11, 2012, 08:33 PM

I have been trying to think of a way to recreate the water cycle, to show how this 'barrier' miracle isnt a miracle at all.
But i'm not really sure how to do it.

So far all I have managed to do is create a halocline (pycnocline), and I have to say I was suprised at the extent to which the two different salinity waters did not mix. it was pretty much stable, and stayed like this overnight. I put a drop of ink in the fresh water, and it did not extend below a sharp dividing line, where the salt water was.

http://s13.postimage.org/yab1a2y79/DSC04527.jpg
http://s18.postimage.org/d4rst3h07/DSC04548.jpg

So the halocline effect can be a lot stronger than I had imagined, but this also means that it is much more easy to observe. When you put your hand through this 'barrier' you can literally see it'
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Re: Sea barrier bullshit
Reply #1 - February 11, 2012, 09:37 PM

Cool experiment. It would be very easy to observe IRL given that river outflow frequently contains a fair bit of sediment, while ocean water generally doesn't. I've often seen rivers in flood against an incoming tide, and the line between the two types of water is quite distinct.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- nj7
- Member
- offline
Re: Sea barrier bullshit
Reply #2 - February 12, 2012, 12:49 PM

Check out verse 18:60, which is the only other context using the same Arabic word for "the two seas", albahrayni. Moses wishes to visit the junction of the two seas:

"Behold, Moses said to his attendant, "I will not give up until I reach the junction of the two seas or (until) I spend years and years in travel." 18:60

It sounds like this is meant to be a particular place that could (in principle) be visited. Not something that happens in places all over the world.

Here are two the sea barrier verses:

25:53 "And He it is Who hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set a bar and a forbidding ban between them."

55:19-20 "He hath loosed the two seas. They meet. There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other)."

http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Sea barrier bullshit
Reply #3 - February 12, 2012, 01:10 PM

Quote from: nj7 on February 12, 2012, 12:49 PM
Check out verse 18:60, which is the only other context using the same Arabic word for "the two seas", albahrayni. Moses wishes to visit the junction of the two seas:

"Behold, Moses said to his attendant, "I will not give up until I reach the junction of the two seas or (until) I spend years and years in travel." 18:60

It sounds like this is meant to be a particular place that could (in principle) be visited. Not something that happens in places all over the world.

Here are two the sea barrier verses:

25:53 "And He it is Who hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set a bar and a forbidding ban between them."

55:19-20 "He hath loosed the two seas. They meet. There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other)."

yes nj7., those verses are there, but it could be nothing to do Salt water/ fresh water. it could as well be a parable saying., That Two different type of people with different religious and philosophical background don't mix like fresh water/salt water example at the River/sea interface.

idiots in Islam take those parable pranks as real scientific fact and talk nonsense

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2IEvykdCpQ

Why don't these fools take some sea water and tap water, mix them and see what happens. In a large scale mixing of slat water and fresh water number of parameter such as winds,
waves, and speed of river runoff affect how fast and how good they mix but THEY MIX EVENTUALLY .

Fools need to do some 5th grade science experiments. These high school failed fools TWIST so much what is there in Quran and what has been said in modern science, they fool themselves and fool millions of Muslim kids around the globe.

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- dr_sloth
- Pub Regular
- Orthodox Atheist
- offline
Re: Sea barrier bullshit
Reply #4 - February 12, 2012, 01:16 PM

i dont actually believe it is referring to the pycnocline. there are plenty of simpler interpretations, but I am trying to be generous to the muslim argument.

If the pycnocline is observable, then the Muslim argument has literally nothing.

Nadir Ahmed uses the following quote to 'prove' that they are not observable

"The pycnocline forms an invisible boundary - between buoyant, downflowing river water and dense, inflowing saltwater."

But the pycnocline in question is a specific pycnocline at Chesapeake Bay, not pycnoclines in general. Even here it is not certain whether the author of the article really LITERALLY means invisible. It obviously wasn't the point of the sentence to state that you cannot see the pycnocline. Human authors do not have to mean every single word they say literally. It seems like Ahmed has more faith that humans mean what they say, than the author of the quran.

Anyway, let us assume that the pycnocline at Chesapeake Bay is invisible. There are still plenty of other pycnoclines that clearly are observable:

see how the rays of light refract at a different angle as they enter the saltier water

"Some two and a half feet below the surface of the Caribbean Sea at Tankah Bay, Mexico lies the undulating boundary between saltwater and freshwater. This boundary is visible as shimmering layer of water, similar to what cooking oil floating on top of water in a container might look like. This halocline is visible due to the different refractive indices of saltwater and freshwater."
- dr_sloth
- Pub Regular
- Orthodox Atheist
- offline
Re: Sea barrier bullshit
Reply #5 - February 12, 2012, 01:18 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on February 12, 2012, 01:10 PM

Why don't these fools take some sea water and tap water, mix them and see what happens.

Ahmed is reluctant to say that they dont mix. he just says that there is a barrier, and refuses to say what 'type' of barrier there is.
In fact, he is reluctant to really say anything meaningful at all.
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Sea barrier bullshit
Reply #6 - February 12, 2012, 01:24 PM

Quote from: dr_sloth on February 12, 2012, 01:16 PM
i dont actually believe it is referring to the pycnocline. there are plenty of simpler interpretations, but I am trying to be generous to the muslim argument.

Sorry ., I will never be generous to IDIOTS who argue that there are some modern scientific facts hidden in Quran, for that matter in any 2000 year old scriptures. I can be generous to some guy in a village who never went to school but only went to some Islamic school and dropped out but not to these educated fools who have the access to internet on their finger tips..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- dr_sloth
- Pub Regular
- Orthodox Atheist
- offline
Re: Sea barrier bullshit
Reply #7 - February 12, 2012, 01:29 PM

we should be generous to their arguments, because when we refute them, it is more comprehensive.

i.e, EVEN in the best case scenario for the muslims (it refers to a pycnocline), it is still bullshit
- Pertinax
- Member
- offline
Re: Sea barrier bullshit
Reply #8 - February 12, 2012, 05:40 PM

(a barrier) means a partition, which is dry land.
qtafsir.com

Compare

.... which have placed the sand for the bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it....
Jeremiah 5:22

Proverbs 8:29

http://www.metrum.org/deluge/delsumer.htm

Quote
A peculiar aspect of the story in the Qur'an is that Al-Khidir is found at a distant place called the "junction of the two seas." This is believed by secular scholars to be a reference to the end of the World, where the sun rises from the outer Ocean sea. The "junction of the two seas" is mentioned in several places in the Qur'an:

He [Allah] is the one who has let free the two bodies of flowing water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition. (Qur'an 25:53)

This has been compared to the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. It would follow that the "junction" of these two seas would be at the end of the World, at "the setting place of the sun," where Dhul-Qarnayn sees the sun setting into a body of water.[70] The Abzu freshwater sea was also depicted as a deity in the Babylonian creation myth, the Enûma Elish, where he was a primal being made of fresh water and a lover to another primal deity, Tiamat, who was a creature of salt water. The Enuma Elish begins:

When above the heavens did not yet exist nor the earth below, Apsu the freshwater ocean was there, the first, the begetter, and Tiamat, the saltwater sea, she who bore them all; they were still mixing their waters, and no pasture land had yet been formed, nor even a reed marsh...
Alexander the Great in the Quran
1« Previous thread | Next thread »