Sugar-coatted version of islam

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- Merry_Squirell
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Sugar-coatted version of islam
OP - February 22, 2012, 07:10 PM

Too often i've read that converts to islam were presented ''sugar-coated'' version of islam. What does it imply; they were told stories of islam by friends, boyfriends or imams..
Could someone please explain to me; do converts take an effort and read hadith and Qoran themselves? Why should someone believe nice words uttered by good-loking Arab boys, nice old blokes-imams or good friends who present their religion in the best light ?

I am a scientist by profession; whenever I am presented with a problem,eg. how a certain molecule causes growth of a cancer i literally go through hundreds of pages on PubMed , Cancer Research etc...because I want to see evidence and make my own decisions.

If I was intereste in islam, I would sit down and learn as much as possible about religion.

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Re: Sugar-coatted version of islam
Reply #1 - February 22, 2012, 07:21 PM

From my experiences, most converts convert for fickle reasons. I'm not saying this as an anti-Islamic sentiment, what I mean is they go for Islam for reasons such as (i) 'exotic' culture, (ii) community spirit (especially if they lack their own community or are marginalised) (iii) lapsed/former Christians looking to fill the void (iv) marriage/love (v) (not very common) political/ideological solidarity.

When a potential convert is searching to become a Muslim, they will usually go to Muslims/mosques which seem more open to questions, if they ask Muslims in these mosques about Islam, obviously all of the information they will hear will be positive or positively spun. This is not necessarily because the Muslims are bamboozling them to get numbers or because Muslims are taqqiya (deception) tactitioners as right-wing anti-muslim websites will have you believe (cough). The reason Muslims give them a positive picture of Islam is because those Muslims will have a positive impression of the religion-this is common to religious people of any faith, the positive aspects are highlighted/exagerated and the negative aspects are either ignored/justified/rationalised or downplayed. Christians will do the same thing, as will adherents of any other religion. Not because they are purposefully lying to potential converts-but simply because this is (in most cases) their genuine impression of the religion.

Unfortunately for converts however-leaving Islam when you become part of the Muslim community is not easy-as with Christianity-but there are more issues for an apostate in Islam.

Oh, and humans are generally lazy and ignorant, that's why they don't research the info more fully.

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- Coolred43
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Re: Sugar-coatted version of islam
Reply #2 - February 22, 2012, 07:24 PM

Personally speaking...when I started reading about Islam, I lived in a muslim country. The absolutely only thing available to me as sources of information were copies of the quran in english (translated by yousuf ali) and some booklets that basically spoke about hijab, how to pray, and why being a muslim was so wonderfu for women. That was it. Now I have no excuse for not digging deeper other than my state of mind at the time. I was married to an abuser, living on the "far side of the moon" as I called it...lonely and depressed. I needed something to hold on to, something to believe in and make my life at that time matter....because it seemed to me at the time that my life had very little meaning. Long story short...I fell for it hook, line, and sinker...just by reading the quran (no context, no history, no additional information...not even hadith at that time) because I wanted to. Allowed myself too....if I had had a bible back then I might have done the same for christianity...hinduism. Anything. I needed something to hold on to...and Islam happened to be it.

Over the years, as more information became available (bookstores opened up, the internet arrived etc)...I then did the research that I should have done at the beginning. This is when I started to realize just what I had willingly agreed to be apart of...the eventual shedding of islam from my life began. (it took awhile because islam has a way of becoming the central focus of your life...whether you wholly agree to it or not...so takes time to become less important and eventually not important at all)

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- BerberElla
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Re: Sugar-coatted version of islam
Reply #3 - February 22, 2012, 07:51 PM

People born into the religion also don't research it. Infact I'd say converts might research more and that is saying something if you go by the admissions that many of them don't.

Also love does many a crazy thing, like make women adopt a way of life that seems intolerable to them, all for the sake of love. But then people doing stupid things for love might not be understandable from a logical 'scientific' point of view, but from a historical POV, you know this is just part of humanity, to let emotion cloud reason.

Emotion such as love and faith, hope etc, are usually all a believer needs. Indeed it is all I am told I need. Just have faith they tell me, if I have faith, let go of reason, let go of logic, I could be a muslim again.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
- Merry_Squirell
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Re: Sugar-coatted version of islam
Reply #4 - February 22, 2012, 08:13 PM

Quote from: interested212 on February 22, 2012, 07:21 PM
From my experiences, most converts convert for fickle reasons. I'm not saying this as an anti-Islamic sentiment, what I mean is they go for Islam for reasons such as (i) 'exotic' culture, (ii) community spirit (especially if they lack their own community or are marginalised) (iii) lapsed/former Christians looking to fill the void (iv) marriage/love (v) (not very common) political/ideological solidarity.

When a potential convert is searching to become a Muslim, they will usually go to Muslims/mosques which seem more open to questions, if they ask Muslims in these mosques about Islam, obviously all of the information they will hear will be positive or positively spun. This is not necessarily because the Muslims are bamboozling them to get numbers or because Muslims are taqqiya (deception) tactitioners as right-wing anti-muslim websites will have you believe (cough). The reason Muslims give them a positive picture of Islam is because those Muslims will have a positive impression of the religion-this is common to religious people of any faith, the positive aspects are highlighted/exagerated and the negative aspects are either ignored/justified/rationalised or downplayed. Christians will do the same thing, as will adherents of any other religion. Not because they are purposefully lying to potential converts-but simply because this is (in most cases) their genuine impression of the religion.

Unfortunately for converts however-leaving Islam when you become part of the Muslim community is not easy-as with Christianity-but there are more issues for an apostate in Islam.

Oh, and humans are generally lazy and ignorant, that's why they don't research the info more fully.

Of course, it's not only the case with islam, but also other religions. I think people fall for ''exotic things'', for wish to be different than their background...Or people sometimes confuse their appreciation of culture (for example those who love India, might become Hindu or Buddhist)with religion.

Isn't it funny how cats can understand people without ever reading a single psychology book?
- lydialily
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Re: Sugar-coatted version of islam
Reply #5 - February 23, 2012, 12:36 AM

What I don't understand are the claims from converts who say they sat down one day and read the whole Quran and found it so enlightening that they immediately converted. And most of the converts I was around with had claims of that sort. I carried around a pocket translation for years trying to read a little at a time, trying to see this beauty they're all talking about. But I didn't. Even as a child rebelling against the stupid madrasah, I could see the bullshit they were teaching us. How do grown adults just manage to look over the ridiculous, disgusting parts and claim beauty everywhere?
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Re: Sugar-coatted version of islam
Reply #6 - February 24, 2012, 03:58 PM

well what happens is islamic missionaries give a filtered version of islam where they cherry pick the best quotes from quran & hadith to impress potential targets..

For example they'll say Mohammed said in his last speech that "everyone is equal". This might arouse someone whose been subject to discrimination/persucution.

But the islamic missionary wont tell you that mohammed considered blacks inferior & used deragatory tones towards them such as as "raisons" & "pug nosed slaves". This is hugely ironic as many young black folks convert to islam ............... What's even more hilarious is an idiot like malcolm X got his panties in a hunch over racism his whole life, then he converts to a religion whose founder was racist to blacks according to islamic sources themselves. Work that one out guys

another example is they'll say mohammed respected women and pull out the quote about your mum having 3 times more rights over you then your father to back up that statement, but then they won't mention the large amount of gynophobia that is prevalent throughout the quran and hadith.
- Mafooz
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Re: Sugar-coatted version of islam
Reply #7 - February 24, 2012, 04:59 PM

Quote from: lydialily on February 23, 2012, 12:36 AM
claims from converts who say they sat down one day and read the whole Quran and found it so enlightening that they immediately converted.

Wow, they really say that? I bet most of them actually de-convert after they've read it in a language they understand.

I used to believe in god when I was younger, I never liked Islam though. I suppose I was a Deist(?), I believed a god created us but doesn't interfere in our lives. I only did my prayers when father was at home, the alternative was being thrown around the house or the belt. Reading quran after school everyday for two hours was what I hated most. My imam told me I would read the quran in English soon but that time never came. I suppose deep down, he didn't want me knowing too much about Islam, because it's a joke.

Anyway I suppose most Muslim's who try to convert people, don't even know the contents of the quran themselves. The ones who do know the nature of Islam, won't tell them the bad bits of course. I suppose in Islamic countries they tell you the bad side after you've converted. And tell you it's too late to leave Islam, if you do, we will kill you.
- lydialily
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Re: Sugar-coatted version of islam
Reply #8 - February 24, 2012, 06:57 PM

Yes really. I was hanging out a lot among converts and curiously they all say the same thing. There's also the ever popular "I was a Christian, then a Buddhist but both never gave me inner peace the way Islam has" claim. I don't know if they de-converted as I've drifted away from that bunch but they do seem to know their Quran and hadiths well.

The sweetest Muslims, I find, are the earnest Quranists who seek to make their own completely different interpretations of the text using roots. They acknowledge that the bad parts are terrible but they seek to find the 'true' meaning of the words because people have 'misinterpreted' them.

Then there's reformists like thefatalfeminist.com who's doing some pretty interesting work. Are they sugar-coating? I'm not so sure. They present the disgusting parts and acknowledge that this is what the majority believes and then they show you how that understanding is wrong. Among reformist groups, I see quite a bunch of converts who drifted away from mainstream
- Homer
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Re: Sugar-coatted version of islam
Reply #9 - February 25, 2012, 07:21 AM

Quote from: lydialily on February 23, 2012, 12:36 AM
What I don't understand are the claims from converts who say they sat down one day and read the whole Quran and found it so enlightening that they immediately converted. And most of the converts I was around with had claims of that sort. I carried around a pocket translation for years trying to read a little at a time, trying to see this beauty they're all talking about. But I didn't. Even as a child rebelling against the stupid madrasah, I could see the bullshit they were teaching us. How do grown adults just manage to look over the ridiculous, disgusting parts and claim beauty everywhere?

Ya, I think I said this before, and didnt mean it in a condescending way although it came out that way......
but I never could understand converts (of any kind). Like the thought process just seems alien to me.
When I read the quran I just kind of though "Well, this is kind of out there and a bit scary", so how someone else can read it and think "This is totally beautiful and enlightening" is something I dont get. Kind of like how there are people who really think French Horror movies are smart and scary (they arent, Martyrs was stupid, you hear me reviewers on Netflix, ya you. 4 stars my ass).

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

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Re: Sugar-coatted version of islam
Reply #10 - February 25, 2012, 07:39 AM

People are generally a lot more receptive to what they hear from human beings around them then what they read from dry sources, you'll see it everywhere. You can much quicker convince someone of something if you give them an impassioned, emotional and baseless speech than if you send them some objective, rational reading material. Politicians know this and that's why they spend so much time given talks and debates rather than writing literature.

To get back to the matter at hand, it is for this reason that reading the Qur'an (or bible/any other religious text) wouldn't always put the interested customer off-the seed has already been planted with passionate words and the customer has maybe been given more convert friendly impassioned literature-it may raise questions which the customer will then seek answers to, not from trustworthy literature, but from the biased humans who interested him in the first place.

"Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

What apple stores are like.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
- Homer
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Re: Sugar-coatted version of islam
Reply #11 - February 25, 2012, 07:42 AM

Oh ya, true enough. I could see that.

one funny thing though, btw, in my experience like 80% of muslims I know well enough to know these kind of things, only read the quran in arabic....and they dont speak arabic. They just kind of think the words are magic. Only mention that to reenforce your point.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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