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Theme Changer

 Topic: Slavery in Islam

 (Read 8142 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Slavery in Islam
     OP - February 28, 2012, 12:20 PM

    I hate how some muslims try to twist their argument in favour of Slavery in Islam by saying "Mo encourages muslims to free their slaves,if one frees a slave they will be in paradise,So Mo hates slavery"


    Ok...

    - If Islam is against slavery and Mo doesnt like it, why didnt he ban it? That would have make him more humane if he has done that.

    -Encouraging muslims to free their slaves with a promise of getting into heaven is far from being regarded as a noble deed IMO,what they are trying to say is if there was no reward for deen points to get into heaven,they wouldnt have bother to even consider of freeing their slaves

    -Correct me if im wrong I learned that Slavery wasnt banned in Saudi Arabia until 50's. How true is that?


    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #1 - February 28, 2012, 12:30 PM

    1). Islam never banned Slavery,  at best one can say Islam moderated slavery for those who converted in to Islam

    2). Islam's approach to slavery  changed with time and place

    3). In  Islam it appears as if it greatly limited and those who could be enslaved  under a given circumstances are under some restrictions  (although these restrictions were often evaded)


    4). Islam treated slaves as human beings as well as property.


    5). Islam banned the mistreatment of slaves - unless slaves question their position and treatment., but in book  such tradition repeatedly stresses the importance of treating slaves with kindness and compassion
        

    6). Islam allowed slaves to achieve their freedom and made freeing slaves a virtuous act
      

    7).  Islam barred Muslims from enslaving other Muslims but infidels, Idolators and other non Muslim who question Islam  even if they are from earlier Abrahamic religions. IT IS A FAIR GAME to won them ., That is true in literature s well as in real life.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #2 - February 28, 2012, 12:52 PM

    1). Islam never banned Slavery,  at best one can say Islam moderated slavery for those who converted in to Islam

    .

    Moderate in what sense?

    Quote
    2). Islam's approach to slavery  changed with time and place


    Yes but if it wasnt for abolitionists, Slavery would still have exist.

    Quote
    4). Islam treated slaves as human beings as well as property.


    I disagree


    Quote
    5). Islam banned the mistreatment of slaves - unless slaves question their position and treatment., but in book  such tradition repeatedly stresses the importance of treating slaves with kindness and compassion


    This one is debatable, but still that doesnt make it better.
        

    Quote
    6). Islam allowed slaves to achieve their freedom and made freeing slaves a virtuous act


    Yes, it is a virtuous act because it will earn you a deen points enough to get you in Al-jannah
      

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #3 - February 28, 2012, 01:28 PM

    I hate how some muslims try to twist their argument in favour of Slavery in Islam by saying "Mo encourages muslims to free their slaves,if one frees a slave they will be in paradise,So Mo hates slavery"



    That's like saying just because Muhammad encourages muslim to give away for charity, it means Muhammad hates and forbids wealth.

    Freeing slaves is a lot less about abolishing slavery and more as an act of charity. Because slaves are considered as possessions that can be bought and given away.
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #4 - February 28, 2012, 01:32 PM


    The messenger of the master of all the universe, couldn't even unequivocally forbid slavery. Some master of the universe eh.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #5 - February 28, 2012, 01:59 PM

    Um slavery definitely still exists.  Mauritania?  Sudan?

    I recommend Ronald Segal Islam's Black Slaves.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #6 - February 28, 2012, 02:22 PM

    Um slavery definitely still exists.  Mauritania?  Sudan?

    I recommend Ronald Segal Islam's Black Slaves.




    Well let me give John Alembillah Azumah

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2237312499464971431


    Ronald Segal



    A great man .. but he is very juicy South Africans Owe him lot.. and finally he got the recolonization he deserves

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #7 - February 28, 2012, 02:45 PM

    From yevee link above

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2237312499464971431

    Quote
    While slavery only lasted 3 centuries in the west, it has lasted 14 centuries in the Middle East and exists today in many Muslim countries.

    Another interesting fact was that the Arabic-Islamic slave trade in the trans-Saharan and East African slave markets had mortality rates as high as 80-90%, where the trans-Atlantic slave trade with Europeans is estimated at 10%.

    Also, in the trans-Atlantic, there were 2 men for every woman that went to the Americas. However, it was reversed with the Arabic-Islamic slave trade in that it took 2 women for every man (where all men were castrated).

     We can easily imagine the reason the Arabs demanded these gender ratios. With the men already being castrated, the children born to the women were regularly killed at birth, which explains why there is not African/Black population in West Asia, like that in Brazil and the United States. The death toll of Africans from the trans-Saharan and East African Islamic slave trade may be upwards of 140 million souls.


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #8 - February 28, 2012, 03:25 PM

    erm didnt mohammed buy and sell slaves?
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #9 - February 28, 2012, 04:47 PM

    Lol,Yes, but the usual answer would be "But he treats his slave nicely" and dont forget they will also bring an example of his adopted son that married his cousin; Zainab.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #10 - February 28, 2012, 05:08 PM

    I've heard the reasoning that Mohammed couldn't have outright abolished slavery because it would have greatly disrupted the economy at the time. So instead he just encouraged everyone to free their slaves. So Islam doesn't condone slavery, but it has rules for it in case it is socially acceptable Roll Eyes

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #11 - February 28, 2012, 05:25 PM

    One thing i can testify is that Mo is a clever person, in fact i will say he is the cleverer amongs the Ibn Hisham family.Its similar to women rights, where he forbid female infanticide that occurs during Jahiliyya period and that is enough for an average muslimah to believe that Mo is a feminist.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #12 - February 28, 2012, 05:46 PM

    Quote
    The Moors, starting in the 8th century, raided coastal areas around the Mediterranean and Atlantic Ocean, and became known as the Barbary pirates. It is estimated that they captured 1.25 million slaves from Western Europe and North America between the 16th and 19th centuries.[32][33]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery

    Wiki is a bit naughty as it does not point out that male slaves were castrated, nor the huge death rate.  The US in 1800 was paying 20% of its revenue to North African states to stop them sending pirate ships.  Britain in the early 1600's lost 400 ships to barbary pirates!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #13 - February 28, 2012, 05:51 PM

    There is something very strange here

    Quote
    Relations between the Kingdom of Morocco and the United States date back to the earliest days of U.S. history. On December 20, 1777, Morocco formally recognized the colonies as a unified sovereign nation.[1] Morocco remains one of America's oldest and closest allies in the Middle East and North Africa, a status affirmed by Morocco's zero-tolerance policy towards al-Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood and their affiliated groups. Morocco also assisted the U.S. CIA with questioning al-Qaeda members captured in Afghanistan, Iraq, Indonesia, Somalia and elsewhere during the administration of George W. Bush, 2001-2009.

    Formal U.S. relations with Morocco date from 1787 when the United States Congress ratified a Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the two nations.[2] Renegotiated in 1836, the treaty is still in force, constituting the longest unbroken treaty relationship in U.S. history, and Tangier is home to the oldest U.S. diplomatic property in the world. Now a museum, the Tangier American Legation Museum is also the only building on foreign soil that is now a National Historic Landmark.[3]


    Quote
    According to Robert Davis between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by Barbary pirates and sold as slaves in North Africa and Ottoman Empire between the 16th and 19th centuries.[52] The coastal villages and towns of Italy, Portugal, Spain and Mediterranean islands were frequently attacked by them and long stretches of the Italian, Portuguese and Spanish coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants; after 1600 Barbary pirates occasionally entered the Atlantic and struck as far north as Iceland.[53]
    In 1544, Hayreddin Barbarossa captured Ischia, taking 4,000 prisoners in the process, and deported to slavery some 9,000 inhabitants of Lipari, almost the entire population.[54] In 1551, Turgut Reis (known as Dragut in the West) enslaved the entire population of the Maltese island Gozo, between 5,000 and 6,000, sending them to Libya. When pirates sacked Vieste in southern Italy in 1554 they took 7,000 slaves. In 1555, Turgut Reis sailed to Corsica and ransacked Bastia, taking 6,000 prisoners. In 1558 Barbary corsairs captured the town of Ciutadella (Minorca), destroyed it, slaughtered the inhabitants and carried off 3,000 survivors to Istanbul as slaves.[55] In 1563 Turgut Reis landed at the shores of the province of Granada, Spain, and captured the coastal settlements in the area like Almuñécar, along with 4,000 prisoners. Barbary pirates frequently attacked the Balearic islands, resulting in many coastal watchtowers and fortified churches being erected. The threat was so severe that the island of Formentera became uninhabited.[56][57][58]

    In Portugal for instance, the coastal city of Nazaré was raided several times during until the 16th century when the local fortress was built (according to Pedro Penteado and his book based in the historical ecclesiastic diaries of Nazaré). The city of Lisbon built the Torre de Belém to defend the capital against these pirates.

    Between 1609 and 1616 England alone had a staggering 466 merchant ships lost to Barbary pirates. 160 English ships were captured by Algerians between 1677 and 1680.[59] Slave-taking persisted into the 19th century when Barbary pirates would capture ships and enslave the crew.[60] Even the United States was not immune. In 1783 the United States made peace with, and gained recognition from, the British monarchy, and in 1784 the first American ship was seized by pirates from Morocco. Payments in ransom and tribute to the Barbary states amounted to 20% of United States government annual revenues in 1800.[13] It was not until 1815 that naval victories in the Barbary Wars ended tribute payments by the U.S., although some European nations continued annual payments until the 1830s.[46]

    Among the most important slave markets where Pirates operated in Mediterranean Europe were the ports of Majorca, Toulon, Marseille, Genoa, Pisa, Livorno and Malta. In Africa, the most important were the ports of Morocco, Tripoli, Algiers and Tunis.[61]
    [edit]


    above and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco–United_States_relations


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #14 - February 28, 2012, 05:58 PM

    http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/whtslav.htm

    Quote
    WHEN EUROPEANS WERE SLAVES: RESEARCH SUGGESTS WHITE SLAVERY WAS MUCH MORE COMMON THAN PREVIOUSLY BELIEVED

    COLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before.


    Robert Davis
    In a new book, Robert Davis, professor of history at Ohio State University, developed a unique methodology to calculate the number of white Christians who were enslaved along Africa’s Barbary Coast, arriving at much higher slave population estimates than any previous studies had found.

    Most other accounts of slavery along the Barbary coast didn’t try to estimate the number of slaves, or only looked at the number of slaves in particular cities, Davis said. Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.

    Davis’s new estimates appear in the book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800 (Palgrave Macmillan).

    “Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”

    “Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe,” Davis said. “Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”

    Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.

    “One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature – that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” Davis said. “We cannot think of slavery as something that only white people did to black people.”

    During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.

    “Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.




    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #15 - February 28, 2012, 06:48 PM

    Wow, Thanks for the links Moi, im glad to have read this Afro

    I became aware of Europeans being enslaved when i read Candide and this proves that contrary to what most muslims are claiming, its obvious that Islam has encouraged slave trade to an inhumane level

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #16 - May 06, 2012, 08:43 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rhuUqr-k1g&feature=player_embedded#!


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV45kb92T7k&feature=player_embedded





    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #17 - May 06, 2012, 08:43 AM


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOPD7_SCFNA&feature=player_embedded


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1j8D1j9mEc&feature=player_embedded

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #18 - May 06, 2012, 08:54 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su9eKoCAjBU&feature=related


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDSO2E1SXiQ&feature=related

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #19 - May 11, 2012, 02:35 PM

    what if muslims said "mo encourages people to not rape", would that be acceptable ?

    or should he have said "never rape"

  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #20 - May 11, 2012, 03:07 PM

    I've heard the reasoning that Mohammed couldn't have outright abolished slavery because it would have greatly disrupted the economy at the time. So instead he just encouraged everyone to free their slaves. So Islam doesn't condone slavery, but it has rules for it in case it is socially acceptable Roll Eyes


    It really is a reasonable thing to do.  Much like the Islamic view on alcohol.  First people were just told not to be drunk at the mosque, but drinking was okay.  Then later, the general view that alcohol is bad (possibly a sin) is brought in.

    It is very practical to have started the process of getting rid of slavery by bringing in laws to treat them well and encouraging the freeing of slaves.  What is missed of course... is the final verse saying... slavery is now forbidden completely.

    'God' in the koran seems to have no problem doing this for drinking... but apparently.... not for slavery.  Now that is a bit perverse.
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #21 - May 11, 2012, 03:24 PM

    .

    'God' in the koran...............

    god of koran is nothing but god of every religion that was there before Islam including Arabian paganism .   Koran is nothing to do with Muhammad the alleged  character depicted in Koran and Hadith

    what if muslims said "mo encourages people to not rape", would that be acceptable ?

    or should he have said "never rape"



    the Character   "mo"  that gives the impression of encouraging war mongering Muslims to  rape/kill/loot those who question the early Islamic onslaught " was nothing but Islamic rulers and Islamic preachers., it is very little to do with 95% Muslims that lived and are living now...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #22 - May 11, 2012, 03:30 PM

    what if muslims said "mo encourages people to not rape", would that be acceptable ?

    or should he have said "never rape"


    Its well known that Mo has raped tons of women, also why are you trying to stir some shit up. Mate Tongue

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #23 - May 11, 2012, 04:14 PM

    Cato tell that to a friend  of mine who calls himself a communist.He is very free-minded, open to talk about anthing...yet the moment i said that Mo wasn-t the best guy that ever walked the Earth he told me, noooo, Mo was a man of peace....

    A commie who thinks that Mo is man of peace and equality.

    Isn't it funny how cats can understand people without ever reading a single psychology book?
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #24 - May 11, 2012, 04:16 PM

    The most perverted and disturbed "argument" i have heard from Muslims (I will presume you guys have also?): "In Islam there is no slaves, but servants." mysmilie_977

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #25 - May 11, 2012, 04:18 PM

    Cato tell that to a friend  of mine who calls himself a communist.He is very free-minded, open to talk about anthing...yet the moment i said that Mo wasn-t the best guy that ever walked the Earth he told me, noooo, Mo was a man of peace....

    A commie who thinks that Mo is man of peace and equality.


    I am familiar with dumbass leftists like that. But than again its a commie! Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, should I keep on? Maybe Mo becomes a "nice" person if you compare him to those guys?  Cheesy

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #26 - May 11, 2012, 06:40 PM

    4). Islam treated slaves as human beings as well as property.

    That's contradictory.

    Quote
    5). Islam banned the mistreatment of slaves - unless slaves question their position and treatment., but in book  such tradition repeatedly stresses the importance of treating slaves with kindness and compassion

    Is it kind and compassionate to force someone into a life of labour that they do not desire or and are unable to choose otherwise? That what of that screams of good treatment?
    And what about sex slavery? Was that kind and compassionate?
    What about the fact that under Islamic law, non-muslim marriages are invalid and therefore allow the separation of husband and wife slaves against their will. Is that kind?

    (Reference for all those points are documented in my Unethical hadiths/surahs thread which is linked in my sig).

    Quote
    6). Islam allowed slaves to achieve their freedom and made freeing slaves a virtuous act

    A person should not have 'achieve' freedom from the very people that forcibly took it away from them in the first place!
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #27 - May 11, 2012, 08:42 PM

    I have forgotten already that term for no change!  Therefore Islam should be encouraging slavery.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #28 - May 11, 2012, 08:46 PM

    The most perverted and disturbed "argument" i have heard from Muslims (I will presume you guys have also?): "In Islam there is no slaves, but servants." mysmilie_977


    I've never heard that....

    I've heard it from Christians though (old testament)

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Slavery in Islam
     Reply #29 - May 11, 2012, 08:49 PM

    One of the more interesting sleight of hands is how slave is translated as servant.  

    http://www.demonbuster.com/slaves.html

    Beware music!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »