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 Topic: Was the Creation of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?

 (Read 35018 times)
  • 12 3 ... 7 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Was the Creation of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     OP - March 13, 2012, 02:03 PM

    With the vast majority of modern problems of the Middle East stemming from the creation of Israel I was wondering whether it should have never been formed in the first place. If the Jews wanted a home land the Western powers could have given them somewhere else; as suggested by the Wiki quote below. But the Zionists wanted Palestine because of the bogus claim that their God had promised it to them; as set out in some book.

    In the Wiki quote Weizmann is a Zionist and Balfour is the leader of the opposition, just after losing power as the British Prime Minister:-

    During the first meeting between Weizmann and Balfour in 1906, Balfour asked what Weizmann's objections were to the idea of a Jewish homeland in Uganda, (the Uganda Protectorate in East Africa in the British Uganda Programme), rather than in Palestine. According to Weizmann's memoir, the conversation went as follows:

    "Mr. Balfour, supposing I was to offer you Paris instead of London, would you take it?" He sat up, looked at me, and answered: "But Dr. Weizmann, we have London." "That is true," I said, "but we had Jerusalem when London was a marsh." He ... said two things which I remember vividly. The first was: "Are there many Jews who think like you?" I answered: "I believe I speak the mind of millions of Jews whom you will never see and who cannot speak for themselves." ... To this he said: "If that is so you will one day be a force."

    ‘Dr. Herzl was indifferent at first whether he led them to Argentina or to Palestine, he quickly perceived the commercial value of keeping the name of the old fi rm on his prospectus … And the promoters knew their public. Poor Jews, who would have preferred the fleshpots of Egypt to the unknown terrors of South America, jumped at the sound of Jerusalem.’
    Aspects of the Jewish Question by a Quarterly Reviewer with a Map
    (London: John Murray, 1902), p. 20

    ‘The Congo State has land enough which we can use for our settlement. We can take over part of the responsibilities, that is, pay an annual tax, which may be fixed later, to the Congo State, in return for which we naturally lay claim to self-government … If King Leopold turns a willing ear to the matter, I shall go to see him at once.’
    Theodor Herzl, 12 July, 1903 in Raphael Patai (ed.),
    The Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl, Vol. IV
    (New York: Herzl Press, 1960), pp. 1511–12

    ‘There is only one cure for this world-evil, and that is for all the Christian white races to combine and to repatriate to Palestine and the neighbouring territories every Jew, male and female, and to take the most drastic steps to see that, once they have founded their Zionist state in their own Promised Land, they permanently remain there.’
    The Jews’ Who’s Who: Israelite Finance. Its Sinister Influence,
    Popular Edition (London: The Judaic Publishing Co.,
    H.H. Beamish, Proprietor, 1921), p. 43

    ‘What the French could do in Tunisia, I said, the Jews could do in Palestine, with Jewish will, Jewish money, Jewish power and Jewish enthusiasm.’
    Dr Chaim Weizmann, Trial and Error
    (New York: Shocken Books, 1966), p. 244


    So why were the Jews not given some other land, and why did they end up in Palestine ? Was it because of anti-semitism in Britain? Was it because of imperialistic/colonial ambitions of Britain ? Was it because of this bogus claim of God and the christian disposition of the Western world ? And did the guilt of WW2 and Nazis tip the balance in their favour ?

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #1 - March 13, 2012, 08:09 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBwIRq_hmjg

    well something like that is needed there .. but i don't see the light at the end of tunnel as I don't see Jesus type of  figure head in Islam.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #2 - March 14, 2012, 12:52 AM

    I don’t consider Israel a mistake, just the method of its creation. However, it is here to stay so you have to accept it as legitimate. And if you don’t then you may as well disregard the legitimacy of places like Iraq, which was created by the British Empire divvying up bits of land.
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #3 - March 14, 2012, 02:00 AM

    Yeah, or umpteen other countries.

    The problem with Israel is not that it was created. It's that they keep wanting to make it bigger. To use the Iraq analogy, it's rather like when Iraq decided it wasn't big enough and needed to gobble Kuwait. That sort of thing pisses people off.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #4 - March 14, 2012, 02:05 AM

    people are the mistake.. we fuck everything up..
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #5 - March 14, 2012, 02:05 AM

    Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. yes

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #6 - March 14, 2012, 02:09 AM

     sloshed os its scarey how you can read minds..

    cheers darlin
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #7 - March 15, 2012, 02:27 PM

    I don’t consider Israel a mistake, just the method of its creation. However, it is here to stay so you have to accept it as legitimate. And if you don’t then you may as well disregard the legitimacy of places like Iraq, which was created by the British Empire divvying up bits of land.


    Imo it is nothing like Iraq or the other countries carved out of the Ottoman Empire (another western import - nationalism), it did not necessitate shipping in people from a different continent/areas of the world. I also don't think the creation of Israel was a mistake, but rather than just the method of its creation i think a jewish homeland should not be in the middle east. If anyhting they should have been given German territory.

    To have occupied the middle-East then given segments of it away to someone else was arrogance of collossal proportions on behalf of the Imperialist powers of the day, and although the people of the region have suffered ever since, the suffering is beginning to spread to other regions.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #8 - March 15, 2012, 02:32 PM

    Yeah, or umpteen other countries.


    Yeah but i believe none have been the cause of so much trouble than Israel. Vastly more trouble.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #9 - March 15, 2012, 02:37 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBwIRq_hmjg

    well something like that is needed there .. but i don't see the light at the end of tunnel as I don't see Jesus type of  figure head in Islam.


    Sometimes your projected persona is cryptic to read, i take it that you feel they should turn the other cheek. For starters even the palestinian christians who fought against the jewish homeland, whose religion did have a jesus type of figurehead could stomch the arrival of the newcomers.

    How would you like it if a foreign force kicked you out of your home and put some people there who claimed that their ancestors lived on your land 2000 years ago and was promised them it by some unknowable entity ?

    I see, you're pro Israel. Hence the bollocks you are talking. Don't lie to me yeezevee, if the new comers were taking away your livelihood, treating you as second class citizens and killing your people you wouldn't be so cool about it, would you ?





    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #10 - March 15, 2012, 04:48 PM

    I don’t consider Israel a mistake, just the method of its creation. However, it is here to stay so you have to accept it as legitimate. And if you don’t then you may as well disregard the legitimacy of places like Iraq, which was created by the British Empire divvying up bits of land.

    There are lots of places that have been 'created' unwisely because without the consent of the peoples forced to live there. But, what can be 'done' can also be 'undone'.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #11 - March 17, 2012, 02:40 AM

    Isn't this like the 10th thread on the Israel and Palestine issue Huh?

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #12 - March 24, 2012, 09:40 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yELNKEmigpE

    That is the problem with Islam...

    Quote


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #13 - April 11, 2012, 03:43 PM

    My teacher of Arabic said that it would be fair to transfer all Jews to Germany  because, the Germans are the most responsible for Holocaust , aren't they?

    And Germany should give  them a part of its territory to form a jewish state.  Well, why just pick Germany? Hitler was born in Austria. Maybe Austria should give them a piece of land.

    Jews were persecuted through centuries  in Russia and Poland. Should these countries also secede parts of territory to form a jewish state?


    Even if such thingg happened, that would serve as a Pandora box for all other injustices and ethnic conflicts. Armenia could ask Turkey for a part of territory because of genocide in 1915. Ukraine would demand a part of Russia because of Holodomor.



    Isn't it funny how cats can understand people without ever reading a single psychology book?
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #14 - April 11, 2012, 03:46 PM

    Let's imagine fora second that a jewish state is formed somewhere in Europe. I bet after some time muslims would start to complain about ''too many Jews in Europe'' and transfer to , let's say, South America. Or Antarctica.

    Isn't it funny how cats can understand people without ever reading a single psychology book?
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #15 - April 11, 2012, 04:31 PM

    Let's imagine fora second that a jewish state is formed somewhere in Europe. I bet after some time muslims would start to complain about ''too many Jews in Europe'' and transfer to , let's say, South America. Or Antarctica.


    Why do you think you might win this bet?
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #16 - April 11, 2012, 05:53 PM

    Quote
    My teacher of Arabic said that it would be fair to transfer all Jews to Germany  because, the Germans are the most responsible for Holocaust , aren't they?

    And Germany should give  them a part of its territory to form a jewish state.  Well, why just pick Germany? Hitler was born in Austria. Maybe Austria should give them a piece of land.

    Jews were persecuted through centuries  in Russia and Poland. Should these countries also secede parts of territory to form a jewish state?


    Even if such thingg happened, that would serve as a Pandora box for all other injustices and ethnic conflicts. Armenia could ask Turkey for a part of territory because of genocide in 1915. Ukraine would demand a part of Russia because of Holodomor.


    Why do you think you might win this bet?


    I am not sure who will win the bet but Merry_Squirell  should tell her teacher that    there should be ANOTHER JEWISH STATE IN SAUDI ARABIA.,  Without That Muhammad the  Prophet of Islam Juice would be living all over Arabia .. Who knows, Juice being smarter than Muhammad following Muslims they would have made the present Saudi Arabia as Mecca and Medina of Modern Scientific discoveries.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #17 - April 11, 2012, 09:28 PM

    Imo it is nothing like Iraq or the other countries carved out of the Ottoman Empire (another western import - nationalism), it did not necessitate shipping in people from a different continent/areas of the world.

     Cheesy Cheesy what??!
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #18 - April 11, 2012, 09:37 PM

    Isn't this like the 10th thread on the Israel and Palestine issue Huh?


    Yep.

    You see, having been raised Muslim, we are genetically bound to this issue over all other issues on the planet. We must go over it at least 5 times a day.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #19 - April 11, 2012, 09:43 PM

    Only if you're an Arab, really. Otherwise Kashmir or Chechnya or some other issue tends to be the singular political obsession to which you cling.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #20 - April 11, 2012, 09:57 PM

    Speaking from a Pakistani POV, it's really all about how much Israel sucks and secondly about how much India sucks (Kashmir related but also just in general).

    Hatred of Israel though unites Arab and South Asian Muslims almost as much as the oil trade.

    Chechnya and Kurdish areas, plus of course the Uyghurs come close. Then we can always all unite over how much life sucks for Muslims in the West because y'know we get treated almost as badly as blacks, aboriginals and latinos here.

    It must be in our DNA. Just cause some ex-muslims don't believe in allah, mohammed or the quran doesn't mean we have to re-examine anything else about what we believe. It just means we get to have sex and drink without as much guilt, whilst still holding the same exact views as the most regressive, tribalist and racist muslims about politics, gender, etc. This doesn't go for everyone, but it certainly applies to people who go on about how Israel was a "mistake" whilst ignoring the status of Iraq and Pakistan, both created by the same British empire and both a source of a lot of problems, arguably worse than anything Israel has done. Pakistani military killed hundreds of thousands of people in 1971 in Bangladesh. Today, Pakistan is one of the worst countries in the world for women. Christians are being forced to convert to Islam or face violence. Yet none of the muslim/ex-muslim types who tend to go "ZOMG ISRAEL IS TEH EVIL!!" can be seen holding Anti-Pakistani Apartheid rallies. Just goes to show, it's not about justice, it's about identity politics.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #21 - April 11, 2012, 10:19 PM

    Yeah but i believe none have been the cause of so much trouble than Israel. Vastly more trouble.


    Bollocks.  Pakistan?  Forgotten the Bangladeshi war and the various India Pakistan wars?

    I formally propose reunifying Pakistan with India.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #22 - April 11, 2012, 10:36 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBwIRq_hmjg

    well something like that is needed there .. but i don't see the light at the end of tunnel as I don't see Jesus type of  figure head in Islam.

    Sometimes your projected persona is cryptic to read, i take it that you feel they should turn the other cheek. For starters even the palestinian christians who fought against the jewish homeland, whose religion did have a jesus type of figurehead could stomch the arrival of the newcomers.

    How would you like it if a foreign force kicked you out of your home and put some people there who claimed that their ancestors lived on your land 2000 years ago and was promised them it by some unknowable entity ?

    I see, you're pro Israel. Hence the bollocks you are talking. Don't lie to me yeezevee, if the new comers were taking away your livelihood, treating you as second class citizens and killing your people you wouldn't be so cool about it, would you ?

    Well that is hard to answer but people did take away my livelihood but  they didn't move me,  I moved 1000s of miles of away from  them DEVIL.,  

    Yes, Devil   last last time I did the count 20% of Israeli citizens were Muslim Palestinians.  I said this many times to many people,  Take out Islam from that land and minds of people I will solve Palestine problem in 3months if not three days..  

    Any ways I can not put jokes out on Muhammad so let me do it on Jesus  for you.. my DEVIL..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivupasnulgs


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgrSyokK6H0


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8QA4C0Uu_M

    Enjoy Devil  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #23 - April 11, 2012, 11:08 PM

    it's not about justice, it's about identity politics.


    Like no one who wasn't a muslim/ex muslim could think that the creation of israel was not a big mistake. I suggest that it is you playing identity politics.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #24 - April 11, 2012, 11:12 PM

     Cheesy

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #25 - April 11, 2012, 11:16 PM

    Cheesy Cheesy what??!


    IMHO opinion Isreal is different to Iraq and Bangladesh. The other two did not involve the the shipping in of people from a different continent. In the case of India at least both parties on the ground agreed to the partition, in Iraq's case it was just a case badly drawn lines on a map, iirc nothing imploded at the time. The other reason why I think it was a bigger mistake is that it is going to fester for years, much longer than in the other two cases cited. I don't forsee any ongoing bangladeshi- pakistani trouble, no long term enmity.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #26 - April 11, 2012, 11:32 PM



    That is the problem with Islam...



    The problem of islam is that it has  been used by the zionist to turn the annexation/colonisation of palestinian from your common-or-garden land grab into the narrative of their powerful christian fundamentalist supporters in America.


    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #27 - April 11, 2012, 11:37 PM

    people care about issues they're exposed to, and the israel/palestine issue has huge momentum. it's not identity politics. i don't know a single person, neither online nor in real life, who says "israel is teh evil". that's just hyperbole.

    there's always going to be people bitter that their causes don't have as much support, but there's no need to bash other causes.
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #28 - April 11, 2012, 11:44 PM

    I bet after some time muslims would start to complain about ''too many Jews in Europe'' and transfer to , let's say, South America. Or Antarctica.


    Why would they? Historically Jews have had a much easier time living under muslims than they did living amongst christians. If 'they' were in Europe, then Israel-in-Palestine would not have happened and I would suggest that muslims and jews would now be living in more harmony than ever before. (I am talking about those in the West)

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #29 - April 11, 2012, 11:46 PM

    Let's imagine fora second that a jewish state is formed somewhere in Europe. I bet after some time muslims would start to complain about ''too many Jews in Europe'' and transfer to , let's say, South America. Or Antarctica.


    Yeah, but this isn't all about the perspective of the Muslims, especially those outside of Palestine-- it has an impact, but it's much less important than the rights of the Palestinians, which include Christians and secularists and atheists along with traditional Muslims.

    Just for the record I find all these comments of yours, coming from a Tudjman apologist, to be quite funny. Tongue

    fuck you
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