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 Topic: Was the Creation of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?

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  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #30 - April 11, 2012, 11:50 PM
    The creation of every modern nation-state was a big mistake.
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #31 - April 11, 2012, 11:53 PM
    Quote from: moi on April 11, 2012, 10:19 PM
    I formally propose reunifying Pakistan with India.


    I do think that pakistan would have been better off staying with India. Don't think the Indians would agree to it now lol.
    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #32 - April 11, 2012, 11:56 PM
    Quote from: Aphrodite on April 11, 2012, 11:50 PM
    The creation of every modern nation-state was a big mistake.

    the modern state is a historical development that is a progress from what preceded it.
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #33 - April 12, 2012, 12:00 AM
    Quote from: Abood on April 11, 2012, 11:56 PM
    the modern state is a historical development that is a progress from what preceded it.


    +1

    That being said, I agree with Aphrodite's general anti-nation-state sentiment.
    fuck you
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #34 - April 12, 2012, 12:01 AM
    well i'm an anarchist, so... Tongue
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #35 - April 12, 2012, 12:04 AM
    Yeah but you sounded more like a Marxist in the previous post. Tongue

    You dropped your veganism, and I expect at some point you'll also come to the conclusion that anarchist theory, such as it exists, has some pretty fundamental flaws.
    fuck you
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #36 - April 12, 2012, 12:05 AM
    Quote from: Abood on April 11, 2012, 11:56 PM
    the modern state is a historical development that is a progress from what preceded it.


    The idea of a nation-state was imposed on most 'states' by colonial powers without taking into consideration what the people wanted, the likes of Ibn Saud and Ali Jinnah are the same IMO, elitists who sucked up to fuckers to gain power.
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #37 - April 12, 2012, 12:08 AM
    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on April 12, 2012, 12:04 AM
    Yeah but you sounded more like a Marxist in the previous post. Tongue

    You dropped your veganism, and I expect at some point you'll also come to the conclusion that anarchist theory, such as it exists, has some pretty fundamental flaws.

    oh i didn't tell you i'm going back to being vegetarian... Cheesy

    also, i've always been heavily influenced by marxism. actually i was a marxist before an anarchist. Tongue
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #38 - April 12, 2012, 12:09 AM
    The creation of Israel probably was a mistake, with hindsight.  But those who lose their marbles over it are stupid.  Try thinking back to 1945 and put yourself in the shoes of someone in a decision making position at that time.  They made mistakes, and so would the rest of you if you were in their shoes.

    Bottom line - Israel exists now, and its not going anywhere.  Deal with reality.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #39 - April 12, 2012, 12:12 AM
    Quote from: Abood on April 11, 2012, 11:56 PM
    the modern state is a historical development that is a progress from what preceded it.


    Yes but progress usually tends to mean a good thing.


    Quote
    The creation of every modern nation-state was a big mistake.


    Yes aphrodite, perhaps I should change the title to Isreal - the biggest mistake?

    I do have to reiterate that i don't think israel is a mistake per se just where it is geographical position lay.
    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #40 - April 12, 2012, 12:16 AM
    Quote from: Aphrodite on April 12, 2012, 12:05 AM
    The idea of a nation-state was imposed on most 'states' by colonial powers without taking into consideration what the people wanted,


    This is partially, if not mostly, true.

    Quote
    the likes of Ibn Saud and Ali Jinnah are the same IMO, elitists who sucked up to fuckers to gain power.


    This is bullshit, and is a fuckin insult to secular nationalists in the Third World-- it's effectively insisting they had no minds of their own. It also means that cultural relativism is correct and there are no universal principles, which, I would argue, as many have before me, is itself a universal principle, thus self-contradictory. Aphrodite, I've consistently defended you against unfair accusations that you haven't let go of your Muslim identity politics, but I think in this case it would be a fair accusation. That some backward, religious, tribal fucks resisted the efforts of the progressives from within their own people/culture is no more an indictment against the secular nationalist leaders than resistance from backwards fucks in the American South is an indictment against the Radical Republicans who tried "imposing" their values on them, and the numerous progressives who followed them until and including today.

    Long live the spirit of the PDPA and the Radical Republicans and those like them who stood and fought for principle and progress even when the majority resisted it.
    fuck you
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #41 - April 12, 2012, 12:22 AM
    Quote
    A document produced by the Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service entitled "The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947/- 1/6/1948" was dated June 30, 1948 and became widely known around 1985.
     
    The document details 11 factors which caused the exodus, and lists them "in order of importance":
     1.Direct, hostile Jewish [ Haganah/IDF ] operations against Arab settlements.
     2.The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations against nearby [Arab] settlements...... (... especially -the fall of large neighbouring centers).
     3.Operation of [Jewish] dissidents [ Irgun Tzvai Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael]
     4.Orders and decrees by Arab institutions and gangs [irregulars].
     5.Jewish whispering operations [psychological warfare], aimed at frightening away Arab inhabitants.
     6.Ultimate expulsion orders [by Jewish forces]
     7.Fear of Jewish [retaliatory] response [following] major Arab attack on Jews.
     8.The appearance of gangs [irregular Arab forces] and non-local fighters in the vicinity of a village.
     9.Fear of Arab invasion and its consequences [mainly near the borders].
     10.Isolated Arab villages in purely [predominantly] Jewish areas.
     11.Various local factors and general fear of the future.[6]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus

    In response to one of yeezevee's video links where some christian?? thinks the palestinians only left because they were told to do so.
    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #42 - April 12, 2012, 12:23 AM
    Pakistan was a mistake. it's a shame though that Pakistanis are far too brainwashed into worshipping the army to even contemplate how much better friendship with India would be compared to the current mindless standoff.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #43 - April 12, 2012, 12:26 AM
    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on April 12, 2012, 12:16 AM
    This is bullshit, and is a fuckin insult to secular nationalists in the Third World-- it's effectively insisting they had no minds of their own. It also means that cultural relativism is correct and there are no universal principles, which, I would argue, as many have before me, is itself a universal principle, thus self-contradictory. Aphrodite, I've consistently defended you against unfair accusations that you haven't let go of your Muslim identity politics, but I think in this case it would be a fair accusation. That some backward, religious, tribal fucks resisted the efforts of the progressives from within their own people/culture is no more an indictment against the secular nationalist leaders than resistance from backwards fucks in the American South is an indictment against the Radical Republicans who tried "imposing" their values on them, and the numerous progressives who followed them until and including today.

    Long live the spirit of the PDPA and the Radical Republicans and those like them who stood and fought for principle and progress even when the majority resisted it.


    If he was really secular he'd have been fine with Muslims living alongside Hindus and Sikhs in the same country, but no he wanted a Muslim majority state, where the Muslims that moved from India to what would be Pakistan were referred to as "muhajirs" ie migrants, the very same word the Muslims who migrated to Medinah used when they turned away from the "polytheists" of Mecca, really fucking secular isn't it?  Roll Eyes IMO, he's as secular the PPP party is, they're fine with having a secular liberal lifestyle and use all the right words but use Islam to influence politics in their way, fuck em. Part of me hopes that Balochistan, NWFP, Sindh and Kashmir all secede leaving Punjab on its own with its 'secular' elites, fuckers.
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #44 - April 12, 2012, 12:28 AM
    Quote from: z10 on April 12, 2012, 12:23 AM
    Pakistan was a mistake. it's a shame though that Pakistanis are far too brainwashed into worshipping the army to even contemplate how much better friendship with India would be compared to the current mindless standoff.


    India, like Iran is a neighbour. Saudi and the US aren't neighbours and aren't needed, fuck both. If Pakistan is to survive it needs to get rid of the generals who operate with impunity and the delusion that Pakistan is the protector of the ummah.
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #45 - April 12, 2012, 12:29 AM
    Quote from: Abood on April 11, 2012, 11:37 PM
    people care about issues they're exposed to, and the israel/palestine issue has huge momentum. it's not identity politics. i don't know a single person, neither online nor in real life, who says "israel is teh evil". that's just hyperbole.

    there's always going to be people bitter that their causes don't have as much support, but there's no need to bash other causes.


    I was not "Bashing" a cause. I was saying that some people use this one issue as the apex of all issues, and it's usually people from Muslim backgrounds who do, whether they believe in Islam or not. It's taught to us that this is OUR issue, whether we are Arab or not.

    And I do know people, online and offline who do tend to think with the "israel is teh evil" mindset. There are identity politics on the other side of this issue too. Don't worry I am not suggesting that only one side plays that.

    Quote from: Abood on April 12, 2012, 12:08 AM
    oh i didn't tell you i'm going back to being vegetarian... Cheesy


    Me too Smiley

    Quote from: Cheetah on April 12, 2012, 12:09 AM
    The creation of Israel probably was a mistake, with hindsight.  But those who lose their marbles over it are stupid.  Try thinking back to 1945 and put yourself in the shoes of someone in a decision making position at that time.  They made mistakes, and so would the rest of you if you were in their shoes.

    Bottom line - Israel exists now, and its not going anywhere.  Deal with reality.


    +1

    All nation states were formed out of violence and most involved displacing and/or killing lots of people.

    What is the problem in the IP conflict is the militarism, the aggression that Israeli govts have practised. The problem is also the biblical "greater israel" theory that many in and outside Israel believe in, whether they consider themselves "secular" or not.

    What my issue is with people like DA who believe the entire state is a "mistake". That's ludicrous and that kind of thinking is not helpful at all. It only polarizes everyone more.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #46 - April 12, 2012, 12:30 AM
    Quote from: z10 on April 12, 2012, 12:23 AM
    Pakistan was a mistake. it's a shame though that Pakistanis are far too brainwashed into worshipping the army to even contemplate how much better friendship with India would be compared to the current mindless standoff.


    Agreed. Good luck trying to get most Pakistanis to understand this basic reality, though.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #47 - April 12, 2012, 12:31 AM


    There isn't a single nation whose narrative or history hasn't been compromised morally at some point. Saying a country is a 'mistake' marks it as unredeemable and makes a pathology out of its existence. Unless you're using that critique to try to improve its well being, you can lapse into a dark fatalism over this.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #48 - April 12, 2012, 12:34 AM
    Quote from: allat on April 12, 2012, 12:30 AM
    Agreed. Good luck trying to get most Pakistanis to understand this basic reality, though.


    I would like to know what your experience of the Pakistan education system was because I was shocked to see that from the very first classes children attended they were already being taught how the Pakistan army is always heroic, always right and that India is a cartoon villain that is part of a conspiracy led by the kaffir to subdue the ummah that is just waiting for Pakistan to throw off these evil influences and lead the muslims into a brighter future.
    By the time they are adults they refuse to even contemplate that the threat of India may be manufactured by those whose interests coincide with a rich military and a deluded public. The army is the sacred cow of Pakistan, and India is needed to keep it relevant.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #49 - April 12, 2012, 12:36 AM
    Quote from: billy on April 12, 2012, 12:31 AM

    There isn't a single nation whose narrative or history hasn't been compromised morally at some point. Saying a country is a 'mistake' marks it as unredeemable and makes a pathology out of its existence. Unless you're using that critique to try to improve its well being, you can lapse into a dark fatalism over this.




    While this is true, I think the more fundamental pathology is identifying with an artificial construct like a 'state' and allowing its fate to dictate our individual moods. Pakistan was a mistake but the greater mistake of Pakistanis is identifying unquestioningly to it.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #50 - April 12, 2012, 12:39 AM
    Quote from: z10 on April 12, 2012, 12:34 AM
    I would like to know what your experience of the Pakistan education system was because I was shocked to see that from the very first classes children attended they were already being taught how the Pakistan army is always heroic, always right and that India is a cartoon villain that is part of a conspiracy led by the kaffir to subdue the ummah that is just waiting for Pakistan to throw off these evil influences and lead the muslims into a brighter future.
    By the time they are adults they refuse to even contemplate that the threat of India may be manufactured by those whose interests coincide with a rich military and a deluded public. The army is the sacred cow of Pakistan, and India is needed to keep it relevant.

    What are Indians taught?
    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #51 - April 12, 2012, 12:49 AM
    Quote from: z10 on April 12, 2012, 12:36 AM
    While this is true, I think the more fundamental pathology is identifying with an artificial construct like a 'state' and allowing its fate to dictate our individual moods. Pakistan was a mistake but the greater mistake of Pakistanis is identifying unquestioningly to it.


    I'd say the mistake is the mentality of 'my country right or wrong' and that can apply to every state.

    However I'm not disputing the urgency for a re-think of ideology through criticism and scrutiny on the proviso of improving the lot of the people. For example Aphrodite has said that she'd like to see a carving up of Pakistan, but what good would that serve in an already volatile region, where the common people are already struggling? What good would more partitions serve, especially the history of partition in that part of the world?

    The questioning of national narratives leads to introspection and progression and that is a good thing, but with the end in mind of transforming the state into as benign a framework for the betterment of its people as possible.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #52 - April 12, 2012, 12:53 AM
    Quote from: z10 on April 12, 2012, 12:34 AM
    I would like to know what your experience of the Pakistan education system was because I was shocked to see that from the very first classes children attended they were already being taught how the Pakistan army is always heroic, always right and that India is a cartoon villain that is part of a conspiracy led by the kaffir to subdue the ummah that is just waiting for Pakistan to throw off these evil influences and lead the muslims into a brighter future.
    By the time they are adults they refuse to even contemplate that the threat of India may be manufactured by those whose interests coincide with a rich military and a deluded public. The army is the sacred cow of Pakistan, and India is needed to keep it relevant.


    Yep... The army and Islam are taught as the pinnacle of Pakistani identity. Hyper nationalism combined with religious supremacism. "We are better than them and they are out to get us." They=India, Israel and sometimes the US (nowadays, the US is probably more so in there, largely because of their own militarism and ongoing mistakes in the region). Almost every Pakistani has said at some point, "Pakistan needs a strong hand; martial law is what works best in Pakistan." They've bought worship of their military whole and soul. And the religion is of course the core of the nation's very reason for being. There is no hope for that country, IMO. Cry And yet every Pakistani I know, esp. outside Pakistan, thinks they should be spending their time hating Israel.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #53 - April 12, 2012, 12:58 AM
    Quote from: Aphrodite on April 12, 2012, 12:26 AM
    If he was really secular he'd have been fine with Muslims living alongside Hindus and Sikhs in the same country, but no he wanted a Muslim majority state, where the Muslims that moved from India to what would be Pakistan were referred to as "muhajirs" ie migrants, the very same word the Muslims who migrated to Medinah used when they turned away from the "polytheists" of Mecca, really fucking secular isn't it?  Roll Eyes


    1. Jinnah was a popular politician.

    2. Popular politicians suck up to their base, it's a function of who they are.

    3. Jinnah's base included a lot of religious Muslims.

    4. Jinnah's Pakistan was what I would call "quasi-secular" in that it identified a particular religious group also as a national group and was formed on that basis even while having an otherwise secular state structure. Not that much different than Israel and those who founded it.
    fuck you
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #54 - April 12, 2012, 01:23 AM
    I did think it was shocking that on a visit to pakistan cica 2000 the closiung down of the national tv station was portended by the playing of the national anthem, no big deal, the bbc did the same in years back, but instead of the BBC logo (the globe doing orbits) pakistan tv had film of nuclear missiles on show and streaking through the air.

    I thought these people were mad.

    But as far as the military being a sacred cow, you dont have too look much further than the Americans.
    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #55 - April 12, 2012, 01:41 AM
    Err, I thought there was a modify option on ones own posts, just wanted to insert a sentence to my previous post but unable??

    Anyways would have written after the bit about people being mad that ...You can be patriotic without expressing blind jingoistic nationalism.
    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #56 - April 12, 2012, 02:03 AM
    Quote from: chepea on April 12, 2012, 12:39 AM
    What are Indians taught?


    I don't know, I've never been there. I only speak of Pakistan because I've lived there for months on end and have seen all my cousins study these same ideas from childhood on without any objective stance. According to the Pakistan history text books for instance, Pakistan won all three wars with India. I have a cousin in his mid twenties that refuses to think otherwise. It's absurd.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #57 - April 12, 2012, 09:24 AM
    Quote from: Aphrodite on April 11, 2012, 11:50 PM
    The creation of every modern nation-state was a big mistake.

    well there were so many mistakes and they continue to happen until we understand where we come from or where other living things come from Aphrodite..  

    If creation of Modern state was mistake., would you and people like you prefer to live Under A Caliph sitting some where in middle east driving the policies to solve local problems of people in Spain or in Indonesia??
     
    If creation of Modern state was mistake., would you and people like you prefer to live Under A king/Queen   sitting some where in  Greece or Italy  driving the policies to solve local problems of people in South America or to Russian northern lands? ??

    If creation of Modern state was mistake., would you and people like you prefer to live Under hindu/buddhist king/queen   sitting some where in  Sri Lank/Nepal/India/Pakistan   driving the policies to solve local problems of people in  African continent  or in Australian aboriginal  lands? ??

    No At that time it was indeed necessary
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #58 - April 12, 2012, 09:26 AM
    Quote from: devilsadvokat on April 12, 2012, 01:41 AM
    Err, I thought there was a modify option on ones own posts, just wanted to insert a sentence to my previous post but unable??

     

    what is the problem of modifying  your own  post  devil??  Off course you should be able modify your posts and YOUR THINKING..   I do that all the time..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Was the Creation of of Modern Israel a Big Mistake?
     Reply #59 - April 12, 2012, 09:29 AM
    Quote from: devilsadvokat on April 12, 2012, 01:23 AM
    I did think it was shocking that on a visit to pakistan cica 2000 the closiung down of the national tv station was portended by the playing of the national anthem, no big deal, the bbc did the same in years back, but instead of the BBC logo (the globe doing orbits) pakistan tv had film of nuclear missiles on show and streaking through the air.

    I thought these people were mad.

    But as far as the military being a sacred cow, you dont have too look much further than the Americans.

    You are WRONG., In America, Military personal are NOT sacred cows  unlike land of pure or for that mater in many totalitarian regimes.  What Americans may do is spend some of their tax payers money for protecting their nations. That is different from Military personal  being sacred cow 
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
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