Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Do humans have needed kno...
Yesterday at 06:32 AM

New Britain
January 21, 2025, 11:54 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
January 20, 2025, 05:08 PM

Gaza assault
January 18, 2025, 03:31 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
January 18, 2025, 03:28 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
January 17, 2025, 06:22 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
December 29, 2024, 12:03 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
December 29, 2024, 11:55 AM

News From Syria
by zeca
December 28, 2024, 12:29 AM

Mo Salah
December 26, 2024, 05:30 AM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
December 25, 2024, 10:58 AM

What's happened to the fo...
December 25, 2024, 02:29 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam

 (Read 44174 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 4 ... 7 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #30 - March 27, 2012, 12:44 PM

    Yes Billy but the relative number of incidents compared to the number of high level publications critcal of Islam/negatively portraying Muslims is fairly low. I would say public reactions aren't generated by the criticism of Islam itself nor the ideology per se, but rather the level of hoopla that's created and how much attention its given. This may be a controversial comparison, but the reaction of mob violence/murders/boycotts/rise of extremism and rhetoric we saw around the world after the Danish cartoons incident is not too different from that of 9/11. I'm not of course comparing these incidents nor am I playing tit for tat (otherwise known as 'I know we are but what are they') but I'm just showing that people make the mistake of thinking Muslims do this most or exclusively while in actual fact it's a worldwide phenomena.

    Anyway sorry to divert, I just wanted to say why I agree with what he tweeted, looking forward to your review.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #31 - March 27, 2012, 12:53 PM


    And yet, the truth is that perceptions like that are grounded in the threat, coercion, censoring, bullying and self-censorship that emanates from significant parts of the ummah when certain subjects are broached. Its an argument of degree, if you want to make that argument at all.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #32 - March 29, 2012, 03:38 PM



    Review in The Spectator

    ++++++

    In the Shadow of the Sword: The Battle for Global Empire and the End of the Ancient World
     

    The subject here is colossal, covering a substantial stretch of the later Roman empire, the last years of the Persian empire, the conversion of the Arabs, the spread of Christianity and what happened to Judaism. The time span runs, effectively, from the death of Jesus to the moment in the eighth century when the Abbasids acquired through violence the vast empire of the Umayyads, stretching from the Loire to the Hindu Kush, and founded Baghdad. The title of Tom Holland’s book is rather studiously general, but his central topic is unmistakable: the founding and establishment of Islam and its political and martial setting.

    If Holland didn’t want to make a point of this in his title, one couldn’t blame him. The traditional account of the first days of Islam, the revelation of the Qu’ran to the Prophet Mohammed from 610, the unbroken line of authentic hadiths, or sayings, from the Prophet’s time to this, the details of the Prophet’s autobiography — all these are still strenuously upheld by most Islamic scholars.

    There may be a reason for this. Scholars in recent years who have raised questions about the Prophet, or who have suggested that the Qu’ran has changed over time, or who have even discussed the sources in detail have found themselves driven into exile, defenestrated, or subjected to death threats. People have said since the 11th century AD that Moses could not possibly be the author of the first five books of the Bible. Suggesting anything remotely similar now about the Qu’ran is to condemn you to an existence where the gendarmerie have to accompany your children to school every day.

    Actually, there is much evidence in support of some aspects of the traditional narrative, including for the Prophet’s existence. We know that the Arabs started numbering their years from the moment of revelation from documentary evidence from very soon after the Prophet’s recorded death.

    There is internal evidence in the Qu’ran that it was, indeed, composed during the period of the Prophet’s lifetime — sura 30, verse 1 alludes to the loss of Palestine to the Persian emperor Khusrow II in 614. There is some basis for Ernest Renan’s claim in the 19th century that ‘Islam was born, not amid the mystery which cradles the origins of other religions, but rather in the full light of history.’

    There are, however, some gaps and uncertainties, which have been energetically suppressed by some of the faithful. The hadiths were only set down many decades — sometimes centuries — later, and grew in number and specificity. The sayings of the Prophet had legal force, so it was tempting to announce that a useful one had just been found. It took centuries to winnow out the real ones from the spurious, and some scholars, such as Joseph Schacht, have declared that the idea that ‘there existed originally an authentic core of information must be abandoned’.

    As for the Prophet himself, biographies had a tendency to expand, and the direct link with his life is one, after a certain point, of oral history. As Holland puts it with brave Gibbonian irony:

        Fresh evidence — wholly unsuspected by Mohammed’s earliest biographers — would see him revered as a man able to foretell the future, to receive messages from camels, and palm trees, and joints of meat, and to pick up a soldier’s eyeball, reinsert it, and make it work better than before. The result was one yet additional miracle: the further in time from the Prophet a biographer, the more extensive his biography was likely to be.

    It was all very much like those mad Gnostic gospels, such as the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, about Jesus turning clay sparrows into real birds in his childhood, like a juvenile magician.

    The difficulty is suggested by an interesting archaeological discovery in Yemen. Forty years ago, a stash of old Qu’rans was found preserved in the ceiling of an ancient Sana’a mosque. They turned out to include fragments of the oldest Qu’rans in existence. When a German palaeographer called Puin declared that, after examining them, he had concluded that the text of the Qu’ran had evolved over time like any other text, the authorities in Yemen withdrew all permission to study the fragments further.

    For the most part, students of Islam’s earliest period have the tendency to couch their arguments in extremely guarded terms, verging on a sort of code. Holland is to be congratulated on setting out the terms of the argument with clarity. His central point about the emergence of Islam as a political and cultural force is that it does not appear from the desert like a clean wind, as the tradition asserts. Its culture comes through at a specific historical point, and it can be shown to rest on the ruins of previous civilisations. It learnt from the successes and failures of other great movements.

    But it does not seem at all appropriate to the Islamic historian to suggest that the spread of Islam owed anything to the hated Roman empire — which had appeared quite happy to have a whore like Theodora as empress in Constantinople. Still less does it seem fitting to mention the way the Umayyads leapt in to fill the gap left by the collapse of the Persian empire, with its love of silk, perfumes and luxury. But, as Holland shows in a grand tour d’horizon of the empires which preceded and rivalled the great Islamic moment, this blazing new civilisation drew on, as much as it obliterated, its rivals, and brightly coloured Persian silks were soon all the rage in the new metropolis of Baghdad.

    It was an age of curious spiritual experiments, such as St Simeon Stylites on his pillar in Syria — the column’s still there, in a most romantic spot — and St Helena’s archaeological excavations in Jerusalem. Mortal sins were not always agreed upon — Islamic scholars believed that Sodom and Gomorrah had been destroyed because of their inhabitants’ habit of farting in public. Different sets of belief fought, then as now, over the same ground — the pre-Islamic Arabs worshipped their pagan gods at the same tree, just south of Jerusalem, that Christians and Jews revered as a favourite of Abraham’s.

    Nor were the first Muslims always quite free from the temptation to carry out their own experiments in belief. They imported from Zoroastrianism, for instance, the idea of praying five times a day — the Qu’ran only indicates three times. They changed their mind about their initial idea that the footprint at the Dome of the Rock was God’s, at the beginning of creation, and decided in the 11th century that it must have been Mohammed’s, ‘who was supposedly transported from Mecca to Jerusalem’, Holland says, ‘specifically for the purpose’. An early Caliph like Mu’awiya, later much reviled, was perfectly happy to ‘pray at the site of the crucifixion, or to restore Edessa’s cathedral after it had been toppled by an earthquake, or to have the odd public inscription on a bath-house adorned with a cross.’

    Tom Holland is a writer of clarity and expertise, who talks us through this unfamiliar and crowded territory with energy and some dry wit. He should remind himself of the meaning of the word ‘oblivious’, and avoid the expression ‘beg the question’ altogethe. But the emergence of Islam is a notoriously risky subject, so a confident historian who is able to explain where this great religion came from without illusion or dissimulation has us greatly in his debt.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/books/7746568/prophetic-times.thtml


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #33 - March 29, 2012, 03:48 PM

    Not available for the Kindle yet. Not even for preorder.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #34 - March 29, 2012, 04:05 PM


    Available for pre-order on Kindle on Amazon UK

    Both hard copy and digital available from April 5th now




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #35 - March 30, 2012, 09:59 AM


    Another review from the Independent by Barnaby Rogerson

    +++++

    This is a book of extraordinary richness. I found myself amused, diverted and enchanted by turn. For Tom Holland has an enviable gift for summoning up the colour, the individuals and animation of the past, without sacrificing factual integrity. He writes with a contagious conviction that history is not only a fascinating tale in itself but is a well-honed instrument with which we can understand our neighbours and our own times, maybe even ourselves. He is also a divertingly inventive writer with a wicked wit – there's something of both Gibbon and Tom Wolfe in his writing. Thus Theoderic... "for all the sheen of his classical education... had been given to murdering courtiers with his own hands, and sporting a moustache." I also relished the description of a shaman "vomiting up revelations".

    He possesses a falcon eye for detail, whether it's the royal Sassanian battle flag as it advances north towards its doom into the steppes of Central Asia, or the reported vision of the Avar Khan who knew Constantinople would survive his assault after he saw its walls defended by the Virgin Mary "a woman alone in decorous dress", or how Rabbinical scholars recommended anointing the scalp with the blood of a dead rooster as a cure against migraine. We catch a glimpse of a workaholic Byzantine Emperor burning the midnight oil in the recesses of his administrative palace just as we witness the repulsive retching death spasms suffered by the victims of the 6th-century bubonic plague. But Holland can also do the far horizons in a few telling brush strokes, skillfully colouring in our mental map of 'barbarian Western Europe' with Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks and Visigoths.

    The ostensible subject at the heart of In the Shadow of the Sword is the sudden and totally unexpected rise of the Arab Empire of the Caliphate in the seventh century. Holland charts its emergence out of the two Empires that preceded it: the Byzantine Empire of the eastern Mediterranean and the Sassanian Empire of Persia and Mesopatamia. To disentangle the nature of these two very particular states, Holland looks back over the centuries to identify their different spiritual legacies and political dynamics. But the core of the narrative starts in 480 AD and takes us on a roller–coaster of an adventure, ending with the mutually assured destruction of each others territory by Heraclius and Khusrow, which allows for the sudden emergence of an Arab Empire in around 650 AD. Over the next hundred years the Caliphate expands its dominions, indulges in civil war and gradually defines itself around a new culture. Holland's end date is around 750 AD – with the failure of the last great Arab attempt to storm Constantinople, the fall of the Ummayad dynasty (centred on Damascus) and the emergence of the Abbasid Caliphs of Baghdad. This is an understandable end-date for another reason, for this is when paper replaced parchment and when the first great Arab chronicles were penned, not to mention the vast corpus of Hadith sayings and Koranic exegesis by a new class of literate Muslim jurists.

    But running like a stream of molten lava beneath the narrative of Holland's history is an even more intriguing story. This is a history of the history as it were, telling how the warrior-dominated Empires of Antiquity were transformed into the first monotheistic states; how the old inclusive conquest states, with their comparatively simple desire for submission and tribute were replaced by states which imposed systems of total belief and demanded exclusive loyalty. As Holland reveals this was a slow, incremental achievement by literate and inventive clerics, teachers and jurists. On the one hand they are heroes, proving to the world that the pen is mightier than the sword, building a world dominated by passionate beliefs, schools, hospices and hospitals (rather than theatres, fora and amphitheatres) but they are also the villains, the crabby, jealous, legalistic men who forge prisons from the bricks of religion. We observe the Eastern Roman Empire morphing itself into Byzantium, first with the closure of the last pagan temples and schools of philosophy, then with a slow tightening of the definitions of Christian Orthodoxy, which will progressively condemn Jews and Samaritans before advancing to exclude the so-called Arian, Monophysite or Nestorian churches. In the same period the Talmudic schools of Mesopotamia create modern Judaism and Sassanian Iran becomes the homeland of a national, priest-ridden Zoroastrian orthodoxy. Many of its rituals, the habit of five daily prayers, of an obsessive dental hygiene and intolerance of dissent (which led to the martyrdom of such a God-loving individual as the prophet Mani) will be grafted into early Islam. This is wonderful, hard-hitting analysis, elegantly tied into the unfolding narrative of events, with each religious establishment exposed in all its glory and treacherous realpolitik.

    Holland has also set himself a third task, as judge of the traditional Muslim narrative. He explains that the traditional story of Islamic origins and the life of the Prophet was only written down a hundred years after the events occurred, and was edited by writers whose primary motivation was theological, and who needed to ground their own political and legal innovations by creating retrospective case history. This is true enough, and as he also demonstrates this happened all over the ancient world, but the craft of the historian is to surely sift and winnow, not to throw the baby out with the bath-water. But instead of interpreting the traditions, Holland follows the brilliant, challenging ideas that Patricia Crone threw into the goldfish bowl of Islamic scholarship a few decades ago to stir things. In essence the full deconstructionist interpretation of nascent Islam denies the existence of pre-Islamic Mecca, tries to divide the Prophet Muhammad into two characters (along the obvious fault line of the different tone of the revelations from Mecca and Medina) and imagines early Islam as a Jewish-Christian heresy aspiring to conquer the Holy Land. They also tend to site non-Muslim sources in preference to anything that can be seen to have been composed in Abbasid Baghdad. But interestingly enough, Holland's vivid selection of non-Muslim texts all prove broadly supportive of the traditional narrative of events – even the most remarkable chance find of them all, a humble receipt for sheep paid over to a very early Arab military detachment operating in Egypt.

    Despite this, Holland keeps rigidly to the deconstructionist interpretation, indeed pushes out the boundaries with some rather wild suggestions, such as placing the original homeland of Islam in a base-camp on the desert borders of Palestine, not to mention the creation of Mecca by an Ummayyad Caliph. I was intrigued to read these suggestions, but ultimately unconvinced. Take the issue of Mecca as an example. We know that the ritual actions of the Meccan Haj are pagan in origin, and can usefully be compared to the survival of other pagan rituals in this period, such as at Harran. No-one interested in creating a brand new, pure Islamic cult centre in the middle of the Arabian desert would have instituted ritual actions connected with the annual commemoration of the death and rebirth of the great Goddess! And of course the geographical location of Mecca allows us to understand the many Ethiopian and Red Sea influences that have been discerned in the language of the Koran. Even with these slight flaws In the Shadow of the Sword remains a spell-bindingly brilliant multiple portrait of the triumph of monotheism in the ancient world.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/in-the-shadow-of-the-sword-by-tom-holland-7600583.html

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #36 - March 30, 2012, 10:34 AM

    Hmm.  Two uncle Mo's!

    And what is up with this reviewer?  Truth is not necessarily in the middle!

    Quote
    Barnaby has written a biography of The Prophet Muhammad which was followed by the story of first four Caliphs of Islam,


    Got it!  His own book is being rubbished!   Should not reviewers declare interests?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #37 - March 30, 2012, 10:37 AM


    Its a generous, enthusiastic review. He disagrees on some things, but thats what debate is all about.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #38 - March 30, 2012, 10:41 AM

    Quote
    Despite this, Holland keeps rigidly to the deconstructionist interpretation, indeed pushes out the boundaries with some rather wild suggestions, such as placing the original homeland of Islam in a base-camp on the desert borders of Palestine, not to mention the creation of Mecca by an Ummayyad Caliph.


    Sorry, I read that as quite snide and belittling.  These are matters of evidence that can be shown.  Some of yevezzees links give very strong support to Holland's interpretation.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #39 - March 30, 2012, 10:55 AM

    How you can perceive what is basically a very enthusiastic review couched in the kind of language most authors would die to receive as snide and belittling because he disagrees with just one aspect of it I don't know.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #40 - March 30, 2012, 01:11 PM

    Preordered

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #41 - April 03, 2012, 01:16 PM


    Good review in the Sunday Telegraph by Michael Scott that provides a very good overview of Tom Holland's approach and insights

    +++++

    In the Shadow of the Sword by Tom Holland:

    Tom Holland's 'In the Shadow of the Sword' is an ambitious attempt to unearth the roots of Islam

    Readers may be familiar with the fundamental changes that took place in the Roman world as it converted from paganism to Christianity in the fourth century, and as its emperors sought to govern, through the turbulent times of the fifth to seventh centuries, as Christian rulers.

    This is the stuff of late antiquity as it would be recognised in any classics or history university department. It is, as Tom Holland points out in the opening pages of his latest book, a period of fundamental importance for the shape of our world, as it is the era in which religious monotheism, rather than political kingdom, comes to dominate history.

    In that context, Holland focuses on the birth of Islam through the prophet Mohammed in Mecca and Medina (modern-day Saudi Arabia) during the course of the seventh century, as it is told to us by one of Mohammed’s biographers, Ibn Hisham, in the ninth century. The faith of Islam, as Holland points out, is centred on the study and strict observation of both the divine revelations to Mohammed (the Koran), and how Mohammed acted during his lifetime (the Hadith and the Sunna).

    Yet, echoing what many (mostly non-Muslim) scholars have queried before, Holland points to the historical problem of the evidence: before 800AD, almost 200 years after Mohammed’s death in 632AD, the only “traces we possess” for the development of Islam “are either the barest shreds of shreds, or else the delusory shimmering of mirages”.

    The task Holland sets himself is to ask what can be done about that gap. His answer is to approach it from the opposite direction: to approach the origins of Islam from its recent past, from the world of fifth to seventh century late antiquity. “Is it possible,” he asks, “that Islam, far from originating outside the mainstream of ancient civilisation, was in truth a religion in the grand tradition of Judaism and Christianity – one bred of the very marrow of late antiquity?”

    Holland examines late antiquity not as an age of decline and fall, but of energy and inventiveness, setting the Arab world and Mohammed’s life in the context of the changing geographies, cultures and priorities of the empires of Rome around the Mediterranean, the Sassanians to the East, and the religious and cultural melting-pot of the “Holy Land”, which connected them. Holland identifies key events, places, ideas and decisions within the Persian and Roman systems which may have impacted upon the Arab world, and, in turn, on the birthplace of Islam in Mecca and Medina.

    In so doing, Holland argues for the forging of Islam in the political and military instability and opportunity of a world convulsed by a changing balance of power. The process, he continues, ensured that, by the ninth century, “a version of Islam’s beginnings that gave no scope for anyone to rule as a Deputy of God”, and in turn no room “for acknowledging the momentous role in the forging of Islam by countless others”, had gained acceptance, the continued presence of which, inevitably, makes Holland’s thesis difficult reading for an Islamic audience.

    Focusing on the wider context to unpick key moments in history is a classic Holland approach, echoing, for example, his study of the fifth century BC Persian invasion of Greece in Persian Fire (2005), which explored the context and prior history of the Persian and Greek worlds. Such an approach is now in vogue, because it demands that the historian break the often stifling disciplinary boundaries that have traditionally governed the study of worlds which knew no such boundaries.

    This is a handsome volume, tackling an important question from a novel perspective, backed by useful notes and written in an accessible and fluid style. But, as I am sure Holland would accept, in part because of the charged nature of the material and issues on which it dwells, and in part because of the vast developments and arenas it attempts to encompass, it is also bound to encounter the full spectrum of critical reaction.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/historybookreviews/9174113/In-the-Shadow-of-the-Sword-by-Tom-Holland-review.html


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #42 - April 04, 2012, 10:51 AM

    My copy arrived this morning. Just read through a couple of pages at random. Looks great.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #43 - April 04, 2012, 10:01 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnUrsmyKbnQ

    Nihal interviewing Tom Holland

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #44 - April 04, 2012, 10:14 PM


    Twenty pages in, the guy can write. Very talented author, page turning stuff.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #45 - April 04, 2012, 10:43 PM

    Billy, have you read Hagarism? I read that a couple of years ago and wasn't very impressed. I'm hoping this is better and will wait for your review before buying Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #46 - April 04, 2012, 10:47 PM

    I'd never heard of him before mate. Maybe its the subject matter that I find so fascinating and that is drawing me in. The stuff I've read or looked at on this topic has been academic in orientation so a little dry at times to plough through.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #47 - April 04, 2012, 10:59 PM

    Oh sorry, Hagarism is on the same subject. It was written by two historians in the 80s who had a similar thesis about Islam being an Arabian Jewish sect when it took over Jerusalem and then at a later date it created a history for itself to sever the link with the Jews. But, it wasn't very well supported so I was hoping that this one provides a better argument.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #48 - April 04, 2012, 11:03 PM

    Ah, yes I read Patricia Crone in some periodicals but it slipped my mind that that was her book. Yeah, that is one of the writers I was talking about. I haven't read that book or any of her stuff in depth, apart from overviews and essays by her in the Times Literary Supplement and things like that. Some of the reviews have suggested that this book is kind of in that stream, I'll let you know here my thoughts as I work my way through it.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #49 - April 04, 2012, 11:06 PM

    cheers fella

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #50 - April 05, 2012, 11:08 AM


    A rave review from the Guardian by Anthony Sattin. I half expected them to get Karen Armstrong to review it.


    ++++++

    In the Shadow of the Sword by Tom Holland – review

    The life of Muhammad and the rise of Islam are boldly re-examined in this brilliantly provocative history


    In 706AD the caliph al-Walid decided to commission a building as a centrepiece for his new capital, Damascus. Only 74 years had passed since the death of the prophet Muhammad; the Arabs' new empire was still in the making, and there was no such thing as imperial Islamic architecture. The caliph found inspiration for his mosque in both Christian and pagan temple architecture. And while he built it on the site of one of the greatest of all Roman temples, demolishing the Christian church that stood inside the precincts, he incorporated many of the Roman stones, as well as the tomb of John the Baptist. For decoration, he brought Byzantine craftsmen over to piece together the vast gold mosaics.

    The idea of borrowing is untroubling in architecture – we expect to see continuity and evolution in buildings. But the idea that religions evolve out of one another is more disturbing. Christians have choked on the notion that many of their rituals were borrowed from pagan rites. And heaven help the historian who dares to suggest that Islam might be a product of earlier religions and not, as the faithful insist, a revelation direct from God. Tom Holland has done exactly this in his brilliantly provocative new book – and we must hope that heaven is smiling on him now.

    Holland is the author of two extremely successful works of ancient history – successful in both the creative and the commercial senses. In Rubicon, he traced the end of the Roman Empire. In Persian Fire, he focused on the fifth-century BC conflict between the Persians and Greeks, between east and west. In the Shadow of the Sword is a more ambitious and more important book.

    The Roman and Persian empires are traditionally seen as collapsing into a void that our schoolbooks called the Dark Ages. Holland's thesis is that there was no void: depending on how you interpret the material, the decline of those empires led to the rise of the Arabs, or the rise of the Arabs led to their decline. To test this idea, Holland ranges around the centuries. Not content with bringing us the end of Rome, he mentions its foundation as well, something he also does with Judaism and the Israelites, with Jesus and Christians, with Zoroaster and the Persians. He is a restless wanderer across the ancient world, both geographically and intellectually. Abraham, Isaac and Moses have walk-on parts, as do the emperors Constantine and Valerian, the empress Helen, Saint Simeon the Stylite (both of them, for it appears there were two) and a dazzling range of other characters from late antiquity. There are so many of them – and few stay around long enough for a reader without prior knowledge to get a real grip on them – that the narrative risks being overwhelmed by the comings and goings. But Holland is a skilful and energetic narrator, and while he guides us along the more intricate twists and turns of the period, he also keeps our eyes on the bigger story – on the revolution that brought down the old order and ushered in the new. For this was the period, Holland says, when allegiance to land, tribe or state was superseded by devotion to one almighty deity.

    The assertion that Rome and Persia declined because of "the revelation of the word of God to His Prophet in far-off Mecca" is likely to be less controversial than Holland's examination of the details of the life of that prophet. He counters the widely accepted – and, to most Muslims, inviolable – view of Muhammad's life and the revelation of the Qur'an with what he calls "the traditions of secular scholarship". These traditions are based on an insistence on hard evidence and a demand that such evidence be scrutinised. The problem with the life of Muhammad is that there is almost no textual support for it until almost two centuries after his death. Holland is not going so far as to say that he never existed. Just that the account we have comes from the 800s, by which time Haroun al-Rashid was caliph over an empire that stretched from China to the Atlantic, and the 1,001 Nights was being compiled. The veracity of details and perhaps also some of the more important moments of the prophet's life were – are – impossible to prove.

    The same goes for the Qur'an. There is no written mention of it in the period immediately following Muhammad – nor any commentary on it until the eighth century. Holland does not, perhaps, give enough weight to the value of oral tradition, the route by which the Qur'an is said to have been received (Muhammad is widely held to have been illiterate) and initially preserved. But his investigation does turn up some exciting possibilities as to the origin of the text and also to the location of Mecca: Holland points out that "there is not a shred of backing" in the Qur'an for locating Mecca in the Hijaz. The first text-based claim for its location in what we now know as Mecca, written a century or so after the revelation of the Qur'an, was a preposition "taken wholly for granted". He might be right, he might be wrong, but there is no denying that the challenge is both stimulating and, in a world of increasingly rigid Muslim dogma, refreshing.

    The Qur'an anticipated the day of Holland's coming (or someone very like him). Sura 25 instructs Muslims to counter the claim that "these are fables of the ancients which he has got someone to write down for him" with the insistence that it was "revealed by Him Who knows every secret". For believers, these words are proof enough of the veracity of the Qur'an. Some have gone further and used them as justification for intellectual, legal and physical attacks on people who claim otherwise. The lives of some people who have dared to question the historicity of the prophet Muhammad and the Qur'an have been ruined, even ended. We must hope that Holland is spared their wrath and that his excellent book will be lauded, as it should be, for doing what the best sort of books can do – examining holy cows.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/apr/05/shadow-sword-islam-tom-holland-review




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #51 - April 05, 2012, 01:57 PM



    From page 8 Chapter 1

    +++++

    "Of all the various features of the modern world that can be traced back to antiquity - alphabets, democracy, gladiator films - none, perhaps, has been more globally influential than the establishment, for the first time in history, of various brands of monotheism as state religions. At the start of the third millenium since the birth of Christ, some three and a half billion people - over half the population of the world - identify themselves with one or other of the various religions that assumed something approaching their modern form in the 250 years either side of Yusuf's death"

    [referring here to Yusuf the king of the Red Sea kingdom of Himyar that fell to the Christians]

    "The period of late antiquity, then, unfamiliar though it may be to other epochs of history, is no less pregnant with relevance for that. Wherever men or women are inspired by a belief in a single god to think or to behave in a certain way, they demonstrate its abiding influence. The impact of the revolution that it witnessed still reverberates today.

    It is the ambition of this book to trace the origins and the progress of that same revolution. How was it that the patterns of people's thought, over the course of only a few centuries, came to be altered so radically and so enduringly?"






    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #52 - April 05, 2012, 02:03 PM



    Hopefully if Tom Holland ever alights on this thread he won't mind me quoting a useful or illustrative paragraph now and again.

    He does deal with Christianity, Rome and Persia, and late antiquity, unavoidably so, but really it looks that it is to contextualise his main interest - Islam and its construction and advancement and the production of the 'narrative' of Islam after the advancements of Arab imperialism.


    Page 14:

    +++++

    "The vast agglomeration of territories won by the swords of their forefathers, stretching from the shores of the Atlantic to the fringes of China, served as the ultimate monument to what God had demanded of them: their submission. 'Islam', they called it - shorthand for what had become, by the early ninth century, an entire civilisation"


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #53 - April 05, 2012, 08:21 PM


    Just finished Chapter 1.

    Wow, he goes in HARD.

    In 58 pages, as pure an outline dismemberment of the 'official' Muslim narrative of Islam and its origins as is available. He's an excellent writer, writes with clarity and feeling, and synthesises and shapes and brings insights to the collective work of many different perspectives.

    So much fascinating detail.

    Overall it accords with the way I have come to see things partly because I've been following the debates from a distance that he touches on - in fact most here will recognise it because we've discussed much of these kinds of ideas here. But its still energising to see them brought together in a book written by a historian with real insight and eloquence that popularises these ideas.

    If the BBC had any spine they would leave aside the hagiography and give this book a documentary series.

    It is an absorbing read, a page turner, and that is to his credit.

    Chapter 2 deals with Persia and how this shaped the late-antiquity that Islam fed upon.

    I'm already reccommending this book for the general reader, not just those specifically interested and who have a stake in the subject, get on Amazon and get on it.

     

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #54 - April 05, 2012, 08:38 PM


    Wow, he goes in HARD.


    That's what she said!  Afro
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #55 - April 07, 2012, 11:20 AM

    Cheesy
     
    Is the book an easy read Billy? I suck when it comes to reading things, even stuff I care about. This book sounds really interesting, I'm tempted to get it.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #56 - April 09, 2012, 05:21 PM

     

    Chapter 2 is about Persia, Zorastrianism, the ebb and flow of emperors and kingdoms, and the tensions and wars between Persia and Rome. You can see how the compact between Emperor and religion and state begins to become embedded, how empire and faith begin to go hand in hand, how the message of a prophet, a monotheistic message preaching a binary good versus evil worldview was established. Little details like Zoroastrianism teaching prayer five times a day.
     
    The sweep of the story in this Persian section is like something out of ‘Game of Thrones’ – royal houses fighting, killing, betraying each other, prophets, holy men, wars, treasures, massacres. A tale is recounted of a heretical prophet called Mazdak who taught about the need for the powerful to share their riches amongst the people. When a favoured son devoted to Zorastrianism gains power, he has Mazdak’s disciples buried alive upside down in the ground in a garden with only their legs sticking out from the earth, and he brings Mazdak to inspect the garden of his followers and see what his teachings have bloomed. Mazdak is then hung by a tree and used as target practice by the new emperor’s archers.
     
    It also describes the developments of Judaism and Judaic learning in Mesopatamia – the codification of God’s law in injunction on everyday life, the kinds of influence that are echoed in the codifications of Islam, not to mention the obvious things like circumcision and dietary laws.
     
    So the scene is set further for how Persia and its ideas and history and power and imperialism were at the time when Islam arose. The influences and context of the age is further illuminated, the cultures, impulses, the urge to imperial power, the refinement of religion and prophethood , the emergence of monotheism and the immense potential power of an empire allied to a singular prophet’s message – all this adds to the streams of the age that fed into Islam when it emerges.
     
    Next chapter deals with Rome, Byzantium, Constantinople.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #57 - April 09, 2012, 05:29 PM


    Is the book an easy read Billy? I suck when it comes to reading things, even stuff I care about. This book sounds really interesting, I'm tempted to get it.


    Get it! Its excellent. I think its quite accessible to a general readership. If you like ancient history you'll especially love it. Its actually rather profound at how it picks apart the claims of Islamic exceptionalism. And it spends as much time explaining the context out of which Islam arose, the vacuum of collapsed empires, as it does focussing specifically on the construction / fabrication of the Quran etc, to really place this repudiation of Islam's claims for itself in the fullest widescreen.

    Almost every sacred cow of Islam is repudiated here. I think it might actually be a landmark book in a way, not so much for what it says (it brings together much of what is already known whilst speculating on more), but for how it does it, his excellent insights, and the exposure this book is getting out there.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #58 - April 09, 2012, 05:47 PM



    The book has details, details, details.

    There is a part of the Quran that describes how when Mary was pregnant with Jesus, she sat down next to a palm tree and went into labour, and Jesus, from inside her womb, advised her to eat two dates to give her strength.

    This is some colour and detail that is not contained in Christian scripture and so it bolstered the Quran's claims to know Jesus better than the Christians did, that Jesus was simply therefore another inferior prophet to Mo who was one in a queue waiting for him.

    But this detail is in fact a Christian oral tradition and had been for hundreds of years, and was taken from the Greek Pagan myth of Apollo and Artemis, which also features a child in the womb advising his mother to rest by a palm tree and eat dates.

    In other words, the 'miraculous', 'inimitable', 'unique', 'perfect', 'original' Quran was influenced by or stole (depending on how you wish to describe it, given the vehemence of the claims made for it, the concept of it being a plaigarised concoction is useful to express) from not only Christian tradition, but further back from that from ancient Greek pagan mythology. A direct thread of recycling can be discerned.

    Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Pagan, it didn't matter where it came from, they wanted it in their pick and mix book!



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #59 - April 09, 2012, 05:50 PM

    Thanks billy. I will definitely get it using my next pay check at the end of the month!
  • Previous page 1 23 4 ... 7 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »