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Theme Changer

 Topic: Tariq Ali-- where's the love?

 (Read 3446 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Tariq Ali-- where's the love?
     OP - April 12, 2012, 12:46 AM

    So we got a lot of Desi secularists from the UK on this forum, but when we speak of high-profile secularists, the name Tariq Ali rarely comes up. What does it say when on an ex-Muslim forum composed mostly of Britons of Pakistani, Bengali, and Indian heritage that people like Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens, and Murray get 10 times the attention of a high-profile Pakistani-British secularist who's been active since the 60s? Why are we looking to white British academics mostly from well-to-do backgrounds for leadership? It's not like Desi, Arab, African, Persian, and working-class secular leaders aren't out there-- granted most aren't that high-profile, but Tariq Ali is-- hell he was even reportedly the inspiration for Rolling Stones song "Street Fighting Man"-- how much more high-profile do you need to get beyond having a classic song by the preeminent band of the 20th century named after you to get some respect here?

    What's my point? Um, not sure I got one. More a rant. And a hope that Tariq Ali and those like him will get a bit more attention, respect and love here.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_Ali

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_Fighting_Man







    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUO8ScYVeDo

    I think this may be one of the Tariq Ali related videos that have already been posted already:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxeeDDedI1g


    fuck you
  • Re: Tariq Ali-- where's the love?
     Reply #1 - April 12, 2012, 12:51 AM

    Never been a fan of Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens, and Murray. Why doesn't Tariq Ali get more attention? Maybe I'm stereotyping here but I find that a lot of desi secularists also happen to suffer from the mentality that I refer to as "white is right" so they turned people like Hitchens and Murray into idols and forget that occasionally a desi can be right too.  Tongue

    EDIT: Unlike Hitchens and co. Tariq isn't an apologist for western intervention, being Pro-Palestine doesn't help too. And there are a few desis on here that are anti-Palestinian/freedom.
  • Re: Tariq Ali-- where's the love?
     Reply #2 - April 12, 2012, 12:54 AM

    speaking of "white is right" where did HO disappear off to? Grin
  • Re: Tariq Ali-- where's the love?
     Reply #3 - April 12, 2012, 12:55 AM

    I'm a fan of Hitchens because I'm a fan of Hitchens. It's got nothing to do with the colour of his skin or ethnicity.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Tariq Ali-- where's the love?
     Reply #4 - April 12, 2012, 12:55 AM

    speaking of "white is right" where did HO disappear off to? Grin


     Cheesy

    On his way to Afghanistan, I hope.
  • Re: Tariq Ali-- where's the love?
     Reply #5 - April 12, 2012, 01:03 AM

    EDIT: Unlike Hitchens and co. Tariq isn't an apologist for western intervention, being Pro-Palestine doesn't help too. And there are a few desis on here that are anti-Palestinian/freedom.


    And yet the same can be said for the founder of the CEMB. Though come to think of it, we've always (since I've been here) had a good number of members who think Maryam Namazie is wrong on those counts too. Cheesy

    Cheesy

    On his way to Afghanistan, I hope.


    Nope. We had this discussion and he's of the belief that he can better serve the war effort by having a good job and thus paying higher taxes and voting for pro-war politicians than actually serving in combat.  Roll Eyes Yeah, he really believes that.

    fuck you
  • Re: Tariq Ali-- where's the love?
     Reply #6 - April 12, 2012, 04:29 AM

    Never been a fan of Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens, and Murray. Why doesn't Tariq Ali get more attention? Maybe I'm stereotyping here but I find that a lot of desi secularists also happen to suffer from the mentality that I refer to as "white is right" so they turned people like Hitchens and Murray into idols and forget that occasionally a desi can be right too.  Tongue

    EDIT: Unlike Hitchens and co. Tariq isn't an apologist for western intervention, being Pro-Palestine doesn't help too. And there are a few desis on here that are anti-Palestinian/freedom.


    I doubt it's a simple as 'white is right'.  Ali doesn't get much play in the states because his left leaning politics is more upfront than his atheism. The same is true of Chomsky so classifies himself as an atheist as well.  Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennitt, and Harris put their atheism first in their speaking points and left a lot of the politics ( Hitchen's aside ) by the way side.  That makes it a lot easier to link some youtube clips of Hitchens or Dawkins hitting the atheism ball out of the park instead of wading though the mix of religious politics and geo politics that make up a lot of less bombastic, more politically oriented commentators that happen to be atheists as well. Also Hitchens et all mostly come from privileged backgrounds which makes their lives of hitting the speaking circuit, being widely educated and being able to pump out books a lot easier.  The racism part mostly comes from the selection, white atheists can afford to be more outspoken and to put out books, while many atheists, even outspoken atheists in other parts of the world don't have the support network or the education background or the finances to be an upfront touring speaker. 

    The same happened in US history.  Many atheists know of Ingersol who probably was the first outspoken traveling speaker for atheism in the US and Mark Twain, the satirist who mocked religion, but when it comes to the nitty gritty of atheism in practice, of seeing people without religion act in supremely moral ways you'd have to turn to the communists and socialists who worked in the South to overturn slavery, segregation, lynching, and Jim Crow laws.  They were just as well spoken as Ingersol and immensely moral facing down mobs and gulfs of prejustice.  But their atheism was tied to their politics, socialism and communism in this case, which Americans in general and American atheists in particular try to avoid because there is a stigma attached to those political theories. 


    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Tariq Ali-- where's the love?
     Reply #7 - April 12, 2012, 04:30 AM

    I still have 3 of Ali's books sitting on my bookshelf unread :(

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Tariq Ali-- where's the love?
     Reply #8 - April 12, 2012, 06:10 AM

    People here are more concerned with religion than politics and so a figure like Tariq Ali (political) is going to be swept aside in favour of Harris, Dawkins and Hitchens (religious). Personally, I prefer someone who deals with both but has a stronger attraction towards politics, and for me I'm often attracted to someone who is against religious fascism rather than religion per se, like Chris Hedges. Anyway, Tariq Ali seems solid, but I don't know much about him, thanks for pointing him out.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Tariq Ali-- where's the love?
     Reply #9 - April 12, 2012, 03:22 PM

    I doubt it's a simple as 'white is right'.  Ali doesn't get much play in the states because his left leaning politics is more upfront than his atheism. The same is true of Chomsky so classifies himself as an atheist as well.  Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennitt, and Harris put their atheism first in their speaking points and left a lot of the politics ( Hitchen's aside ) by the way side.  That makes it a lot easier to link some youtube clips of Hitchens or Dawkins hitting the atheism ball out of the park instead of wading though the mix of religious politics and geo politics that make up a lot of less bombastic, more politically oriented commentators that happen to be atheists as well. Also Hitchens et all mostly come from privileged backgrounds which makes their lives of hitting the speaking circuit, being widely educated and being able to pump out books a lot easier.  The racism part mostly comes from the selection, white atheists can afford to be more outspoken and to put out books, while many atheists, even outspoken atheists in other parts of the world don't have the support network or the education background or the finances to be an upfront touring speaker. 

    The same happened in US history.  Many atheists know of Ingersol who probably was the first outspoken traveling speaker for atheism in the US and Mark Twain, the satirist who mocked religion, but when it comes to the nitty gritty of atheism in practice, of seeing people without religion act in supremely moral ways you'd have to turn to the communists and socialists who worked in the South to overturn slavery, segregation, lynching, and Jim Crow laws.  They were just as well spoken as Ingersol and immensely moral facing down mobs and gulfs of prejustice.  But their atheism was tied to their politics, socialism and communism in this case, which Americans in general and American atheists in particular try to avoid because there is a stigma attached to those political theories. 


    People here are more concerned with religion than politics and so a figure like Tariq Ali (political) is going to be swept aside in favour of Harris, Dawkins and Hitchens (religious). Personally, I prefer someone who deals with both but has a stronger attraction towards politics, and for me I'm often attracted to someone who is against religious fascism rather than religion per se, like Chris Hedges. Anyway, Tariq Ali seems solid, but I don't know much about him, thanks for pointing him out.


    Thing is though, I think secularism/atheism divorced from a larger political context isn't very useful. Any serious headway secularists and atheists have ever made in social/political policy has always been part of a larger political package-- in the 18th and 19th centuries it was Classical Liberalism, in the 20th it was Socialism, Social Democracy and Communism. I think the idea that some atheists have that they're gonna turn this into a civil rights struggle for those who identify as non-religious is nonsense-- it's not gonna happen. Actually, maybe this deserves its own thread.

    fuck you
  • Re: Tariq Ali-- where's the love?
     Reply #10 - April 12, 2012, 04:14 PM

    I do not know much about the guy, I have only read one of his books: Clash of Fundamentalisms. My own humble opinion of that book is that it does more harm than good.

    Firstly, it practically defends Osama Bin Laden, painting him as some sort of Marxist defender of the oppressed peoples of the world, but if Osama had his way he would have rounded up all Leftists (Tariq Ali included) and had them shot. Secondly, comparing Islamic fundamentalism with Christian fundamentalism is dangerous, it's only effect is to hide the true danger of Islamic extremism from the West. The reason why you only ever hear criticism of Islam on right-leaning media outlets such as Fox News is precisly because of the work of people like Tariq Ali. If Westerners are led to believe that Islamic Fundamentalism can be ignored and dismissed in the same way that Christian fundamentalists can then the Left in the West will never rally behind the cause of secularism in the Middle East, they simply wont consider it an important enough issue.
  • Re: Tariq Ali-- where's the love?
     Reply #11 - April 12, 2012, 04:18 PM

    Firstly, it practically defends Osama Bin Laden, painting him as some sort of Marxist defender of the oppressed peoples of the world, but if Osama had his way he would have rounded up all Leftists (Tariq Ali included) and had them shot.


    Care to offer some actual text from the book supporting this characterization?

    fuck you
  • Re: Tariq Ali-- where's the love?
     Reply #12 - April 12, 2012, 10:33 PM

    Well you cannot quote him as defending Osama, because he doesn't. I said he "practically defends him" but does not actually defend him. It is more the general feel of the book which is overall a polemic against American Imperialism, hence Osama is framed as an inevitable response. Maybe I am being too harsh on him but I feel that the Islamic world needs more Leftist intellectuals that are willing to take on Islam head on instead of focusing on America. The West has plenty of it's own Leftists already criticizing America.
  • Re: Tariq Ali-- where's the love?
     Reply #13 - April 12, 2012, 10:37 PM

    America is a big part of it, regardless of where you stand, it is an unavoidable topic of discussion given it's impact and power.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Tariq Ali-- where's the love?
     Reply #14 - April 12, 2012, 11:46 PM

    Actually, I am rereading his book now, I had not looked at it for about 8 years. I am quite enjoying it now. It is very critical of America but it also has a lot of interesting stuff about the history of Islam.  Afro
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