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 Topic: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran

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  • which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     OP - April 17, 2012, 06:40 PM

    i read on this website that the quran does actually say that the heavens are 'expanding', rather than just big. If this is true, then this example, although still unimpressive, isn't completely laughable.

    I was also suprised that it was possible to get anywhere near the speed of light using the (faulty) calculations comparing a day to the distance the moon travels in a year.

    Please dont mistake me for somebody who is softening up to Islam. I just like to know which points I can concede.

  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #1 - April 18, 2012, 12:15 AM

    i read on this website that the quran does actually say that the heavens are 'expanding', rather than just big. If this is true, then this example, although still unimpressive, isn't completely laughable.

    It isn't true.  The Quran just speaks about the "vastness" of the heavens.

    .
  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #2 - April 18, 2012, 12:25 AM

     
    which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran



    those words are odd words dr_sloth.,  .. If it is Scientific  it can not be miracle., and there is neither science nor miracles in Quran.,

    So the questions on Qur'an should go like this..


    which are the  least  harmful verses ' in Quran?
    which are the  least  stupidest  verses ' in Quran?
    which are the repetitive verses in Quran?
    what verse did Prophet of Islam use for his needs??
    what are good verses that are useful for humanity??


    Such  questions are sensible questions in Quran

    So you have to modify your question dr_sloth...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #3 - April 18, 2012, 09:55 AM

    I also think it is talking about the vastness of the universe and not expanding it.

    The Most laughable ones are the ones where they say that the quran is trying to say the earth is made as an ostrich egg, I made a pretty deep research about it and it doesn't really say that but even if it did, it will be wrong, the embryology stuff is laughable.

    That word in that verse where they claim to say expanding actually says Vast extent but of course using lies to change the meaning of the word helps them, that would could mean expanding but in the context of that verse it means vast extent.

  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #4 - April 18, 2012, 05:15 PM

    I have never found anything in the Koran that seems like a scientific miracle. However there is something in the Hadiths that, if authentic suggests that Muhammad was capable of seeing into the future:

    Quote
    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 179:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks; people with small eyes, red faces, and flat noses. Their faces will look like shields coated with leather. The Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose shoes are made of hair."

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 180:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    The Prophet said, "The Hour will not be established till you fight with people wearing shoes made of hair. And the Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose faces look like shields coated with leather. " (Abu Huraira added, "They will be) small-eyed, flat nosed, and their faces will look like shields coated with leather.")

     
    It almost seems like Muhammad was predicting the Turkish and/or Mongol invasions and migrations into the Middle East circa 1100-1400 AD (about 600 years after his lifetime). This is undoubtably the most significant major event that has occurred in the Middle East since the time of Muhammad and would indeed be an appropriate thing for a Prophet to predict (great Empires were overthrown and whole new peoples and languages came to populate the region). How could Muhammad have known about this great migration of peoples?

    This is the most convincing thing I have ever seen to suggest that Muhammad was divinely inspired. Curiously I have never heard a Muslim using as proof of Muhammad's divine inspiration, I stumbled upon it myself.

    Of course ther are obvious problems with it too:

    • The words ""The Hour will not be established till..." suggests that he was talking about doomsday, i.e. the end of the world which has still not happened. In that case it seems unlikley that he would be talking about something in the Medieval Era.
    • He also says the same thing a few hadiths before hand, but replace "Turks" with "Jews", if he predicted that the Muslims would be fighting every ethnic group then eventually he will get one prediction right.  Cheesy
    • It is extremly possible that this Hadith was simply made up or exagerated, i.e. certain words like "Turks" might have been added many hundreds of years later by later transmitters, no idea what word is used in the original Arabic langauge, but it all seems a bit suspect to me.

    But at least this is a sort of Prophesy that has half come true. But Muhammad should have had many more, afterall isn't that what prophets are supposed to do? Make Prophesies I mean.

    Aside from this, the only other thing that I have ever observed in nature that would lend itself to the idea that the Universe was designed by a conscience being with a similar appreciation for order and neatness as humans have is the fact that solar eclipses can happen. The Moon is much smaller than the Sun but it is located at a perfect distance from the Earth relative to the sun that it can perfectly cover the Sun at certain times when they line up. That seems like a remarkable coincidence. Then again I am not an astrophysicist so I do not really know if my analysis is really true, perhaps the moon is actually considerably larger than the minimum size needed to cover the sun, or perhaps there are so many other variables at play (i.e. the moon's orbit is afterall elliptical, not spherical so a range of various sizes would also work at different times depending on how far the moon was away at that precise moment)

    Anyway this second point is not really related to Islam specifically as it would apply to any religion. In fact it is the ancient Maya that knew most about the exact dates of the solar eclipses....
  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #5 - April 18, 2012, 07:40 PM

    Aside from this, the only other thing that I have ever observed in nature that would lend itself to the idea that the Universe was designed by a conscience being with a similar appreciation for order and neatness as humans have is the fact that solar eclipses can happen. The Moon is much smaller than the Sun but it is located at a perfect distance from the Earth relative to the sun that it can perfectly cover the Sun at certain times when they line up. That seems like a remarkable coincidence. Then again I am not an astrophysicist so I do not really know if my analysis is really true, perhaps the moon is actually considerably larger than the minimum size needed to cover the sun, or perhaps there are so many other variables at play (i.e. the moon's orbit is afterall elliptical, not spherical so a range of various sizes would also work at different times depending on how far the moon was away at that precise moment)

    It is fairly similar in size as viewed from Earth. Though this will not be always the case, as the moon is slowly travelling further away from the Earth - in 500 million years, there will no longer be a full eclipse possible.
     Fortunately for us, as it loses energy, it is not falling back into Earth.  That is surprisingly lucky all told.

    There are other oddities with the moon as well: it no longer spins on its axis - because one side of it was heavier than the other and friction gradually slowed it down so that it could no longer complete a full spin and instead rocks back and forth in Earth's gravity [think of it being like a swing that you throw fast enough to go all the way around - after a while it can no longer complete the "all the way round" bit and instead swings back and forth in smaller and smaller swings]. At this stage I think we see 8/14ths of the moon.

    I do agree there are a number of curiosities in the cosmology - one that gets me is that the early formation of stars which formed only from hydrogen [there were no heavier elements existing] were larger, faster burning and more likely to go nova.  The nova part is again fortunate because it is what seeded later stars - and is the basis for all the material that makes up our world and our bodies. The fact that these stars were faster burning to me is almost like someone designed it but said "this bit is boring, so I'll fast-forward through this".
  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #6 - April 18, 2012, 10:10 PM

    it was the following thread which led me to believe that it does talk about  expanding 'heavens', rathe than just big heavens
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=14546.0 parrot

    up until now, I had been arguing that it doesnt say expanding. it simply says 'big', but it is ridiculous for me to be lecturing anybody on Arabic, especially if I am wrong. I know nothing about Arabic. All i can do is trust what people tell me, and people tell me different things, so its hopeless.

    If it does say expanding heavens, then I have to acknowledge it. I still wouldnt believe that 'heavens' means 'the universe'
  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #7 - April 20, 2012, 08:09 PM

    Quote
    it was the following thread which led me to believe that it does talk about  expanding 'heavens', rathe than just big heavens
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=14546.0

    up until now, I had been arguing that it doesnt say expanding. it simply says 'big', but it is ridiculous for me to be lecturing anybody on Arabic, especially if I am wrong. I know nothing about Arabic. All i can do is trust what people tell me, and people tell me different things, so its hopeless.

    If it does say expanding heavens, then I have to acknowledge it. I still wouldnt believe that 'heavens' means 'the universe'


    the verse says "we are its expanders"...according to http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(51:47:5)  ...the word means
    "(are) surely (its) expander"....the word do not means "it is expanding" ...or "it is still expanding" ..... it is synonym to "we created the vastness of space" or "expand the vastness of space" etc

    For example, if you take a balloon and fill air in it ...now you have expanded it (created vastness of space or make it big)....... if you show that balloon to someone and say "i am its expander" ....this doesn't mean that you are still expanding it or continuously expanding it....you are just referring to the large space you have created in it ..

    Following are different translations which will give an idea that how this word is used

    Sahih International: And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.

    Pickthall: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).

    Yusuf Ali: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

    Shakir: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

    Muhammad Sarwar: We have made the heavens with Our own hands and We expanded it.

    Mohsin Khan: With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

    Arberry: And heaven -- We built it with might, and We extend it wide.


    ANOTHER TYPE OF EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS THE VERSE IS NOT TALKING ABOUT CURRENT EXPANSION OR CONTINUOUS EXPANSION

    in the very next verse (51:48) it talks about spreading of earth ...and the last word in the verse is "mahiduna" which according to http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(51:48:4) means "(are) the spreaders" .... it is also an active participle like "lamusiuna" ..... so does the verse 48 means earth is spreading continuously like heavens ?

    Disbelief doesn't justify getting tortured in eternal hell
  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #8 - April 20, 2012, 08:37 PM

    tonyt... the Volume 4, Book 52, Number 179:

    Narrated Abu Huraira could sound like eskimos, too.

    They wear "fur" shoes (mukluks) but is there any historic
    people who look like this and wear hair shoes?  Not sure
    the mongols did.

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #9 - April 20, 2012, 08:48 PM

    Turkic tribes/Tatars?

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #10 - April 20, 2012, 08:54 PM

    tonyt... the Volume 4, Book 52, Number 179:

    Narrated Abu Huraira could sound like eskimos, too.

    They wear "fur" shoes (mukluks) but is there any historic
    people who look like this and wear hair shoes?  Not sure
    the mongols did.


    Holy cow! You are right! Eskimos! That had not occured to me. Well the Jihad has a long way to go till it reaches Alaska, at least that means that Doomsday is a long way off.
  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #11 - April 20, 2012, 09:09 PM

    North Russian Tatars dressed similarily.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #12 - April 20, 2012, 10:28 PM


    For example, if you take a balloon and fill air in it ...now you have expanded it (created vastness of space or make it big)....... if you show that balloon to someone and say "i am its expander" ....this doesn't mean that you are still expanding it or continuously expanding it....you are just referring to the large space you have created in it ..


    i understand that, and that is the argument i had been using. My example was that of a winning goal scorer in a football match.
    if you ARE the winning goal scorer, it doesnt mean you are currently scoring the goal at this very moment.

    But then somebody said that the arabic actually does say expanding. So what am i supposed to believe?
  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #13 - April 20, 2012, 10:29 PM

    in the very next verse (51:48) it talks about spreading of earth ...and the last word in the verse is "mahiduna" which according to http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(51:48:4) means "(are) the spreaders" .... it is also an active participle like "lamusiuna" ..... so does the verse 48 means earth is spreading continuously like heavens ?


    thats a good one
  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #14 - April 20, 2012, 11:26 PM

    This reminds me of a great post by Harakaat on this question. An example of what a knowledgeable, intelligent and helpful young man Harakaat was:

    "And the heaven We built with Our own powers (aydin) and indeed We go on expanding it - 51:47"

    Wala habibi! Let's look at the Arabic verse in question.

    وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ

    Now, the key word in question is موسعون (moosi3oon). That is the ism al-faa3il (the "doer") of "أوسع" "awsa3a". Now "awsa3a" is the "af3ala" verb of the root. "af3ala" verbs in Arabic morphology refer to *making* the object perform the verb (Check Paradigm إفعال here: http://www.learnarabiconline.com/paradigm-connotations.shtml).

    So "awsa3a" means "ja3ala waasi3an", "to make sth. waasi3". Without doing all this morphology stuff you can get to that just by checking the entry for "awsa3a" in Al Mu3jam al Mu7ee6 (which you can do online if you wish). Now, what does "waasi3" mean? It simply means "wide" or "big". (Again, check Al Mu7ee6 if you don't believe me. Though this is a fairly commonly used adjective in Arabic. You might've already learned it.)

    So, what is the verse actually saying?

    "And the heaven, we have built it with hands (literal meaning) and we are those who make (it) big."

    The more intensive verb "wassa3a" (from fa33ala) would have meant to make something expand.

    "The تفعيل paradigm is also commonly used for expressing intensity. For example, the simple verb قطع means “to cut”, whereas the enhanced form قطّع means “to chop up”."

    That's from the site I gave you about Arabic morphology.

    Pickthall translated it best when he wrote:

    We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).

    Anyway, what's odd about the verse is that there's no object for "moosi3oon" (it should have said something like "laha lamoosi3oon". Of course, this could mean that the object has simply been omitted but the word still refers to "as-samaa2" (heaven) (something you can do in Arabic poetry). But it could also mean, as the Tafsir al Jalalayn exegesis states:

    { وإنا لموسعون } قادرون يقال: أد الرجل يئيد قوي، وأوسع الرجل: صار ذا سعة وقوة .

    that "moosi3oon" is an adjective that means "capable".

    What this shows is how flexible the Arabic language is and how a single word could mean many, many different things. But it also shows how ambiguous the Quran is (and coming from God, the last thing you want is ambiguity), and that the verse as understood by Islamic scholars before the whole "scientific miracles" craze in the 70s or so did not refer to "expansion". In Arabic, "moosi3" is a person who makes something big, and not a person who keeps on making something big (expanding it, MUWASSI3).

    tl;dr version: No miracle here. Don't take translations at face value and always consult an Arabic dictionary.

  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #15 - April 21, 2012, 06:21 AM

    But then somebody said that the arabic actually does say expanding. So what am i supposed to believe?


    No translator has ever translated to "we are expanding it" etc.....even the latest translation by mufti taqi usmani says "Indeed, we are its expanders"

    Disbelief doesn't justify getting tortured in eternal hell
  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #16 - April 21, 2012, 11:08 AM


    Shabbir Ahmed:
    "And it is We Who have built the Universe, and behold, We are steadily expanding it."

    Dr. Munir Munshey:
    "With Our power and prowess, We brought into being the universe. And indeed, We expand it (steadily)!"

    Progressive Muslims:
    "And We constructed the universe using matter, and We will expand it."

    Muhammad Asad:
    "And it is We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."


    Khalifah:
    "We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it."

    Muhammad Ahmed & Samira:
    "And the sky/space We built/constructed it with power/support, and We are extending/spreading."


    Ali Unal:
    "And the heaven, We have constructed it mightily, and it is surely We Who have vast power, and keep expanding it."

    Bijan Moeinian:
    "I (God) have created the universe myself and will continue to expand it."


    Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali:
    "And the heaven (is also a sign). We have built it with (Our) Hands (i.e., Capability) and surely We are indeed extending (it) wide."

    Tahir al-Qadri:
    "And We built the heavenly universe with great might. And surely We are expanding (this universe) more and more."

    T. B. Irving:
    "The sky We have built firmly and We are extending it."

    Al-Muntakhab:
    "And the heaven with its regions, spheres and realms of space did We skillfully, powerfully and authoritatively construct and We are expanding the universe."



  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #17 - April 21, 2012, 11:50 AM

    didn't read those translations :( .... anyways but 51:48 can debunk this claim easily, i guess

    Disbelief doesn't justify getting tortured in eternal hell
  • Re: which are the least ridiculous 'scientific miracles' in the quran
     Reply #18 - April 21, 2012, 01:59 PM

    Holy cow! You are right! Eskimos! That had not occured to me. Well the Jihad has a long way to go till it reaches Alaska, at least that means that Doomsday is a long way off.



    unfortunately, they are already there.  I even knew a brother who was tlingit (native)
    who had converted.  One of Malcom Xs cohearts moved up there in the 80s and started
    dawah.  He is reeling them in D:

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
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