Aisha wasn't a Kiddo?

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Aisha wasn't a Kiddo?
Reply #30 - July 18, 2013, 03:11 AM

Quote from: Eternity on April 22, 2012, 05:15 AM
I heard else where she was a robust 17 year old who simply played with dolls....

I heard if you catch a Leprechaun you can take his gold.

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Reply #31 - July 20, 2013, 07:59 AM

Playing Dolls
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Bk. 73, No. 151
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girlfriends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter home they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me.

'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was six years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)

'A'isha reported that she used to PLAY WITH DOLLS in the presence of Allah's Messenger and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah's Messenger whereas Allah's Messenger sent them to her. (Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5981)

Proof of Marriage
Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed (sic – consummated) that marriage when she was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari 5:58:236

Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64

Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)."

Sahih Bukhari 7:62:65

Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sahih Bukhari 7:62:88

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

Abu Dawud 41:4915

`A´isha Bint Abu Bakr: Muhammad married her in the month of Shawwal, three years before the Migration, ten years after he claimed prophethood, according to the tradition of `A´isha herself. He had intercourse with her in the month of Shawwal, eight months after the Migration. She was the only virgin among Muhammad's wives.

Tabaqat Ibn Sa`d, 8:58; Ansab al-ashraf, 1:410.

Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."

Abu Dawud 2:2116

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Reply #32 - September 15, 2013, 01:35 PM

I have a muslim i am communicating with about Aisha's age at consummation, he has kind of ignored Bukhari and muslim and even presented Ahmadi stuff on the subject till i pointed out the ahmadi are nowhere near mainstream Islam and are persecuted for being heretical.

I need help, he claims this verse proves Aisha had reached puberty before Mo broke her in, i have doubts so does anyone know how old Aisha was in this verse?

Narrated Aisha
I had seen my parents following Islam since i attained the age of puberty,Not a day passed by but the prophet visited us,both in the mornings and the evenings.My father Abu Bakr thought of building a mosque in the courtyard of his house and he did so......
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/8/124

If i take it literally,Aisha married Mo at 6-7,her parents were following Islam when she married Mo at 6 or 7, therefore Aisha hit puberty at 6-7?

Has anyone heard of this verse being used to prove aisha had reached puberty before Mo did a break and enter?

Any help appreciated, thank you.
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Reply #33 - September 15, 2013, 04:57 PM

I haven't heard that hadith AB71313.

Arguments I have heard which haven't been stated above:

1: It was a time when people didn't celebrate birthdays, the age she stated may have not been accurate.

2: Studies that show girls from poverty stricken areas often hit puberty at a younger age, evolutionary stuff relating to survival. (having known a few girls who started their periods aged 6, 8 and 10, I used this to help me justify it)

3. There are hadiths that say she was at a certain battle tending to the wounded, and if she was aged 6-9 at the time of marriage then she would not have been old enough to be at that battle since Mohammed didn't allow boys under the age of 15 to go to battle.

4. The time was different using example of the legal age for marriage in the UK/ America 100 years ago to show it was similar ages 11/12/13 etc.

5. In different cultures women are not as childish and mentally forward out of necessity, e.g. 5 year old orphans being able to take care of their baby siblings. Which isn't the same as a child in the west mentally, meaning we baby children for too long.

6. He only had one young virgin wife, she was necessary for her memory so that she can learn from him and teach others as she would spend more time with him and know personal things.

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Reply #34 - September 16, 2013, 07:37 AM

Thanks Jibbs

He is using #2 and the verse i cited as proof Aisha reached puberty at 7 years of age.

I have pointed out these 2 verses say Aisha had not reached puberty, i will wait for a reply.
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/67/169
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/78/157

A salafi has joined the thread,lol,he wants to know if we are using the scientific definition of a child or some man made definition by politicians.
I asked him to cite this scientific definition from a reputable scientific source, i also told him if he was not sure about the definition of a child he could look it up in a dictionary.

I am considering asking them if they have considered using "Mo was a fat dwarf with a small penis" to justify having sex with his child bride.

The women are easier to break, there was a female muslim contributing, I asked her- "You are online a lot these days, is your husband out with his other wife?"
She has a nine year old daughter, the salafi said there was nothing wrong with poking a 9 year old who has reached puberty, she called him a sick freak and claims she is no longer a muslim.
The men cling to this religion and dont want to let go.
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Reply #35 - September 16, 2013, 08:53 AM

Quote from: Jibbs on September 15, 2013, 04:57 PM
1: It was a time when people didn't celebrate birthdays, the age she stated may have not been accurate.

Can't see her being over 10.

Quote from: Jibbs on September 15, 2013, 04:57 PM
2: Studies that show girls from poverty stricken areas often hit puberty at a younger age, evolutionary stuff relating to survival. (having known a few girls who started their periods aged 6, 8 and 10, I used this to help me justify it)

How on Earth does that make a difference? Old enough to bleed old enough to breed? You're still underdeveloped to the point the intercourse can kill you, and can you imagine getting pregnant at that age? Both children will likely die. there is no way at all a child of that age can comprehend motherhood.

Quote from: Jibbs on September 15, 2013, 04:57 PM
3. There are hadiths that say she was at a certain battle tending to the wounded, and if she was aged 6-9 at the time of marriage then she would not have been old enough to be at that battle since Mohammed didn't allow boys under the age of 15 to go to battle.

My impression of that was that he took her with him but didn't allow her to fight.

Quote from: Jibbs on September 15, 2013, 04:57 PM
4. The time was different using example of the legal age for marriage in the UK/ America 100 years ago to show it was similar ages 11/12/13 etc.

There's a very good reason we upped the age limit. Obviously none of these people are child psychologists. You want to say they didn't know better back then and of course it's wrong and should never be done today, fine.

Quote from: Jibbs on September 15, 2013, 04:57 PM
5. In different cultures women are not as childish and mentally forward out of necessity, e.g. 5 year old orphans being able to take care of their baby siblings. Which isn't the same as a child in the west mentally, meaning we baby children for too long.

Most people child or not have protective instincts. From as young as 3 years old I heard comments that I have the instincts of a mother lion. I've known people in horrible situations where they did assume roles of carers, of a sort one of which for a time was myself. Saying it makes you "mentally forward" is wishful thinking. Protectiveness does not equal maturity.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #36 - September 16, 2013, 06:58 PM

Like QSE said there is much more to sexual maturity than periods. Girls can start their period from as young as 6 though it is unnatural and uncommon it can happen, but there is more too it. I very much doubt you will ever see a 6 year old that looks as developed as a mature women, or even look like a 14 year old, her body is still that of a child. I was watching a documentary about child brides in Bangledesh, where many young girls can get pregnant because they have hit puberty but their body is incapable of holding the weight of baby and often miscarry in both early and late stages, it is common for them to experience many miscarriages and often are disowned by their husband as a result. Child brides that are able to get pregnant, because their bodies have not developed their pelvis has not expanded significantly and therefore die through complicated pregnancies. Through the miscarriages or having a smaller cervix it is common to experience internal scarring from intercourse which leads to infertility. Then there are plenty of stories of child brides experiencing internal ruptures from intercourse, which they die from. Hitting puberty is not a necessarily a indicator that a child is biologically an adult. because puberty is over a course of years, many girls who have their periods at 11 or 12 do not look the same as they do when they are 16, there is further development that their body needs to make, pelvis, change in fat distribution, breast tissue, sexual organs. Then there is the massive factor of Psychological issues!!!

I'll find some links for you

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Reply #37 - September 16, 2013, 07:18 PM

http://www.unicef.org/media/media_68114.html

http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/sep/11/yemen-child-bride-dies-wedding

http://www.iwhc.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3487&Itemid=629

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Reply #38 - September 16, 2013, 07:37 PM

Dumbing some random knowledge from the corners of teh Interwebz again...

Bringing you Lina Medina - 5 years old - got impregnated when she was 4:

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Reply #39 - September 16, 2013, 07:47 PM

By the way - she gave birth (by Caesarian) to a healthy boy and she is reportedly still alive today (she was born in 1933)

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Reply #40 - September 16, 2013, 08:07 PM

Its not impossible for a child pregnancy to go right, but it is common to result in varied complications. it is more likely to result in complications compared to adults. There are always exceptions but it doesn't make it acceptable, because then it becomes a matter of try it out and see if dies or not. Some die from the rupture and damage caused by intercourse not just pregnancy.

Would you say that if caesarean was accessible it wouldn't be a problem?

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Reply #41 - September 16, 2013, 11:22 PM

I have said it once, I have said it twice, I will say it again whether or not Aisha was this age or that age, Muhammed was not a paedophile because as most of his denigartors/detractors accuse him of thinking with his dick. This aspect of Muhammed is put under the spotlight and there is enough 'evidence' to support it. Someone like him who commanded an army, a faith, a people could have had a bevy of pre-teeners in his harem if he so wished. Iirc paedophilia is/was diagnosed as something that manifested itself over a certain period of time.

Most child brides are from India? it happen in other places -how many other places? I don't know. If Islam stopped existing tomorrow would the next hundred years see a reduction in honour killings/fgm/child brides? I am asking, I don't know.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Reply #42 - September 16, 2013, 11:36 PM

That depends entirely on whether you would call someone who has sex with a child a ‘pædophile’, for whatever reason he did it.
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Reply #43 - September 16, 2013, 11:53 PM

The fact that her age is under dispute...(yeah yeah... his own scriptures damn him, but does that equal evidence per se?) - that coupled with the fact that a person accused of being sex-mad or mad for sex would pass up the chance to indulge his foilbles? All his other wives were older or much older. With a good lawyer, I think he couldn't be convicted beyond reasonable ground. I am presuming it was 'legal' at the time. I would need to find a response to the question - he was over forty lol and she was his favourite.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Reply #44 - September 17, 2013, 12:15 AM

If you dispute the validity of the ahadith then there is nothing left to indicate that he even married someone called Aisha.
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Reply #45 - September 17, 2013, 12:21 AM

Hmmm. I would have a look at the casework lol, not as if I have a strong feeling to defend Muhammed but are there not hadith that have her at a different age? other evidence that may cast a shadow on the claim of six, evidence found within the scriptures itself? Beyond reasonable doubt. Ahadith, not hadith? is that official?

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Reply #46 - September 17, 2013, 01:58 AM

Ahadith is simply the plural of hadith. One hadith, numerous ahadith. The ones testifying to her age at 6 and marriage consummation at 9 are all in Sahih Bukhari, which makes them authentic second only to the qur’an itself.
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Reply #47 - September 17, 2013, 09:22 AM

Quote
Nigeria's child brides: 'I thought being in labour would never end'

Though child marriage is prohibited under Nigerian law, a toxic blend of routine and religion continues to ruin young lives

Ibrahim Kanuma winces as he recalls the moment a 63-year-old man asked him for his teenage daughter's hand in marriage. The proposal was not unusual in north-western Nigeria's remote, dust-blown state of Zamfara, but he considered the suitor too old for his only daughter, Zainab, 13.

"Even if he had been aged up to 50 – OK. But that old, he'll soon die and leave her lonely," says the civil servant in his peeling office in Gusau, the state capital.

To protect his school-aged child from the crushing stigma of widowhood, Kanuma instead gave his blessing to a union with a "reasonably aged" colleague – in his 40s.

For Kanuma and many others in northern Nigeria, the recent outcry over child marriage is puzzling. Zainab's marriage is prohibited under Nigeria's Child Rights Act, which bans marriage or betrothal before the age of 18. But federal laws compete with age-old customs, as well as a decade of state-level sharia law in Muslim states.

"I wouldn't force my daughter to marry somebody she doesn't like, but as soon as a girl is of age [starts menstruating], she should be married," Kanuma says.

Four of the 10 countries with the highest rates of child marriage are in west Africa's Sahel and Sahara belt. In the years when rains or crops fail, so-called "drought brides" – who bring in a dowry while being one fewer mouth to feed – push numbers up dramatically.

But the practice came under scrutiny in July, when legislators tried to scrap a constitutional clause that states citizenship can be renounced by anyone over 18 or a married woman, apparently implying women can be married under 18.

The obscure ruling will have little direct impact on the one in four rural northern Nigerian girls married off before they turn 15, but it reveals prevailing attitudes in a nation with acute gender disparity.

A successful vote was later derailed by senator Ahmed Yerima, who in 2010 married a 13-year-old from Egypt. A former Zamfara governor who introduced a rigidly enforced version of sharia law in the north in 2000, Yerima argued that a married girl was considered an adult under certain interpretations of Islamic law.

That prompted outrage. "Does it then follow that the married girl who is below 18, at election time, would be permitted to vote?" says Maryam Uwais, a lawyer and child rights advocate in the northern capital of Kano.

Other grassroot Muslim activists, however, fear the oxygen of negative publicity trailing the high-profile Yerima, coming most vocally from non-Muslims, could trigger a backlash among conservative, rural Muslims. This would threaten painstaking progress towards modernisation over the past decade.

In the week headlines erupted over Yerima, Aisha, nine, was quietly rushed through the corridors of Zamfara's Faridat Yakubu general hospital. Its cheerful cornflower blue walls belie stories of the hidden horrors of early marriage. Aisha does not have the words for what happened to her on her wedding night. Her husband, she says, did something "painful from behind".

Nearby, Halima was on her third visit in three years. "I like it here. It is the only time I ever see a television," she says. Just shy of 13, the newlywed came under pressure to demonstrate her fertility. "I thought [being in labour] would never end," she adds softly.

In the tradition of the rural Hausa people of the north, women are expected to give birth at home. Crying out while in labour is seen as a sign of weakness. But after three days close to death in her village, Halima begged to be taken to a hospital. By the time her relatives had scraped together enough to ferry her to the state capital, it was too late. The baby had died.

The prolonged labour left Halima with a fistula, which causes uncontrolled urination or defecation. "Fistulas can happen to anyone, but are most common among young women whose pelvises aren't at full capacity to accommodate the passage of a child," says Dr Mutia, one of two practising fistula surgeons in Zamfara.

Despite the obvious link, he is reluctant to blame child marriage for Nigeria having the highest global rate of fistula. "The problem is not early marriage. It is giving birth at home," he says.

Small victories

There have been small victories in reversing the ripple effects of early and forced marriage, defined as forms of modern-day slavery by the International Labour Organisation.

Fifteen years ago, Zamfara's statistics director, Lubabatu Ammani, carried out a census to record the number of girls attending secondary school in the state. The results were shocking: fewer than 4,000 girls were enrolled out of a population of 3.2 million.

"It was a combination of dropouts, early marriage and religious misinterpretations," explained Ammani, who proposed creating a female education board to help remedy the problem. "We asked all the local emirs and found the main problem was that parents didn't want girls who had hit puberty to be in co-ed schools."

Female enrolment in Zamfara is at its highest since independence five decades ago, with 22,000 secondary school students. On most days, Ammani visits wavering parents to encourage them to keep their daughters in school.

Ammani welcomes the reawakened debate on child marriage but warns of its limits: "The fact is, a lot of people [here], when they hear the campaigning is by people from a different tradition or religion, they won't agree with it."

Others are more blunt. Haliru Andi, who served as Yerima's top aide while he led the call for sharia, bristles at the idea of interference with his faith. "How I even use the toilet, how I share my time with my family – everything is contained in my religion," he says in his Persian-carpeted living room. "How, then, can I take instructions from anybody who does not have a deep understanding of Islam?"

Cultural norms further muddy the issue. Posters outside Mutia's office exhort against another disturbing practice related to child marriage. In one, a woman is being forcibly restrained on a woven palm-frond mat. An assistant grabs her legs; another sits on her chest, and yet another reaches between her legs with a razor blade.

The scene shows a common recourse when a child bride refuses to sleep with her husband, prompting her parents or in-laws to drag her to the wanzan, or traditional barber. "This traditional barber, he doesn't understand anatomy. He thinks there's something obstructing the girl down there, and that's why she fears her husband. So anything he sees, he will just use his knife to cut it," Mutia explains. "They think they are helping."

None of the northern-based grassroots Muslim activists the Guardian interviewed wanted to go on the record about child marriage – reflecting, says one activist, the difficulties women face "going against the grain".

The storm of Twitter and online commentary has translated into a handful of protests in the more liberal south, which is predominantly Christian but also home to millions of Muslims.

In the tiny village of Rigasa, flanked by baobab trees and fields of millet, Nafisa, 14, draws letters in the powdered maize she grinds every morning for herself and her in-laws. A-B-C-D, she writes. It is all she remembers. "My husband gets angry any time I asked him if I can take up my schooling again, so I stopped asking. But my heart is in school," she says.

• This article was amended on 6 September to reflect the fact that child marriage is not illegal as such under Nigerian law but is covered under the Child Rights Act, a federal bill which competes with state and customary law and has not been enacted in 13 of Nigeria's 36 states

http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/sep/02/nigeria-child-brides-religion?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

If you click the link, second picture down makes an impact. Some kind of local ad thing?

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Reply #48 - September 17, 2013, 01:28 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on September 16, 2013, 11:53 PM
The fact that her age is under dispute...(yeah yeah... his own scriptures damn him, but does that equal evidence per se?) - that coupled with the fact that a person accused of being sex-mad or mad for sex would pass up the chance to indulge his foilbles?

devil you have a point there I too doubt that and In fact coming from Shia Islamic background I hardly knew this Aisha/Muhammad story. Most of the stories I heard was Fatima../Khadija/Ali/Hussain/Karbala .. that is all what has been taught in the homes.. Once I read Islam inside out, I reject all hadith.. but then reading Quran and thinking about verses like these

Quote
033.050 : O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

033.051 : You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and that they should be pleased, all of them with what you give them, and Allah knows what is in your hearts; and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.

033.052 : It is not allowed to you to take women afterwards, nor that you should change them for other wives, though their beauty be pleasing to you, except what your right hand possesses and Allah is Watchful over all things.

033.057 : Surely (as for) those who speak evil things of Allah and His Messenger, Allah has cursed them in this world and the here after,, and He has prepared for them a chastisement bringing disgrace.

033.059 : O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

066.001: O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

66.003: And when the prophet secretly communicated a piece of information to one of his wives-- but when she informed (others) of it, and Allah made him to know it, he made known part of it and avoided part; so when he informed her of it, she said: Who informed you of this? He said: The Knowing, the one Aware, informed me.

066.004: If you both turn to Allah, then indeed your hearts are already inclined (to this); and if you back up each other against him, then surely Allah it is Who is his Guardian, and Jibreel and -the believers that do good, and the angels after that are the aiders.

066.005: Maybe, his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins.

THAT IS FILTH Devil., They are the words jinns and That is one hell of a SICK allah and his messenger., couple that to actions some close family members.. That put me off the boat of islam all together., Lucky me being Zebra., it was easy to shut it off completely..

Quote
All his other wives were older or much older. With a good lawyer, I think he couldn't be convicted beyond reasonable ground. I am presuming it was 'legal' at the time. I would need to find a response to the question - he was over forty lol and she was his favourite.

No they are not older are MUCH OLDER, that Jewish girl was 18 or so., . It is true if we remove Aisha story, Muhammad can not be considered as Pedophile but still even if I am a believer, I would consider him as sex obsessed DIRTY OLD MAN not a prophet of allah/god..

Any ways here is the list of Muhammad's Harem.. wives, concubines, right hand possess and what not..

Quote
Wives

1. Khadija/Khadijah bint Khuwailid/Khywaylid
2. Sauda/Sawda bint Zam’a
3. 'Aisha/Aesha/’A’ishah - married at 6, consummated at 9
4. Omm/’Umm Salama/Salamah
5. Hafsa/Hafsah
6. Zaynab/Zainab of Jahsh- daughter in law
7. Juwairiya/Jowayriya bint Harith- captured from the raid on Bani Mustaliq
8. Safiya/Safiyya bint Huyai/Huyayy bint Akhtab- captured from the raid on Bani Nadir
9. Maymuna/Maimuna of Hareth
10. Fatima/Fatema/Fatimah-Ibn-i-Majah vol.1 no.465 p.255 and Sunan Nasa’i vol.1 no.228 p.224; vol.1 no.417 p.307
11. Hend/Hind (widow)
12. Asma of Saba (Sana bint Asma')
13. Zaynab of Khozayma
14. Habla
15. Divorced Asma of Noman / bint al-Nu’man

Slaves/ Concubines

16. Mary the Copt/Christian- female slaves gifted by the ruler of Alexandria, not married but bear him a child name Ibrahim
17. Rayhana/Raihana/Rayhanah bint Zayd/Zaid

Undetermined Relationship

18. Divorced Omm Sharik
19. Maymuna/Maimuna- another slave girl
20. Zaynab/Zainab the third?
21. Khawla / Khawlah- al-Tabari vol.9 p.139
22. Divorced Mulaykah bint Dawud
23. Divorced al-Shanba’ bint ‘Amr
24. Divorced al-‘Aliyyah
25. Divorced ‘Amrah bint Yazid
26. Divorced an Unnamed Woman
27. Qutaylah bint Qays (died right away)
28. Sana bint Sufyan
29. Sharaf bint Khalifah

Most of those names are from that Ali Dashti's book "Twenty Three Years: A Study Of The Prophetic Career Of Mohammad""

But I doubt that there was a character in the history of Islam with name "Muhammad" as told in Islamic history. I say there was NO MUHAMMAD" All the stories of Muhammad were cock/bull stories gathered told by early Muslims from multiple leaders/rulers of Islam.

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Reply #49 - September 17, 2013, 03:58 PM

Yeezeevee - well I come from a sorta versed wahabi background and I did not know her age till I got broadband sometime in 2008! I also think that this 'Muhammed' of the hadi, sorry, ahadith(thanks Kodanshi) could easily be a composite, a composite of a dirty old man. They are old men, nubile girls make them go funny lol.

Yes you are correct how could they be much older if he was in fifties/sixties lol.

Still stands, that the Muhammed of the ahadith could have led any life and if he is to painted as sex-mad surely he could have been the equal of Genghis Khan, or even close.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Reply #50 - September 18, 2013, 07:18 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on September 17, 2013, 03:58 PM
..................... I also think that this 'Muhammed' of the hadi, sorry, ahadith(thanks Kodanshi) could easily be a composite, a composite of a dirty old man. They are old men, nubile girls make them go funny lol.

Yes you are correct how could they be much older if he was in fifties/sixties lol.

Still stands, that the Muhammed of the ahadith could have led any life .............

Hmm Forget Hadith.. Read Quran devil.. and watch the tubes of 17 year old who read all "ISMS" and finally choose Quran and Prophet of Islam..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcxQtLNUBfk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P1SV7sG8Qg

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Reply #51 - September 18, 2013, 07:45 PM

Not sure if its totally relevant, but I'll just chuck this in somewhere....

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/10/richard_dawkins_defends_mild_pedophilia_says_it_does_not_cause_lasting_harm/

views...?

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Reply #52 - September 18, 2013, 08:49 PM

Well that's misleading. He in no way defends it, just says he doesn't judge people born in the late 1800s, early 1900s the same way he would if someone acted like them today. Like with Mo banging a 9 year old, I have no problem at all with a muslim saying it was a different time, I have a huge problem with them defending people doing it today because Mo did back then.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #53 - September 18, 2013, 09:30 PM

Plus he says that he doesn’t think what happened to him harmed him.
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Reply #54 - September 18, 2013, 10:41 PM

Quote from: Jibbs on September 18, 2013, 07:45 PM
Not sure if its totally relevant, but I'll just chuck this in somewhere....

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/10/richard_dawkins_defends_mild_pedophilia_says_it_does_not_cause_lasting_harm/

views...?

That lady who wrote that article with this heading
Quote
Richard Dawkins defends “mild pedophilia,” says it does not cause “lasting harm”

IS AN IDIOT..

with that story Dr. Dawkins did not defend “mild pedophilia,”.. what he said was "That teacher fondling did not had long lasting effect on him" which is different from her heading. But apparently he also said this
Quote
Plus, he added, though his other classmates also experienced abuse at the hands of this teacher, “I don’t think he did any of us lasting harm.”

Dawkins doesn't know that., he is wrong there., And he may also not know what kind of abuse those kids went through..

Perfect example is this scoundrel

who used his social/political power in England's upper class social circles and abused children.. Some children will get over and some children becomes introvert victims suffer for long time., It all depends on support system they had from their families..

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Reply #55 - September 18, 2013, 10:49 PM

Ahh Jimmy Saville - I think there is a post from when I joined where I say that the media is a dirty old man. Didn't know his name would be Jimmy fucking Saville. Strange creature. Did a lot for charity though, gave with one hand and copped a feel with the other. A bit like America re: aid and pillage

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Reply #56 - September 18, 2013, 10:57 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on September 18, 2013, 10:49 PM
..................A bit like America re: aid and pillage..

No that is not from America., that is AMRIKA.. Lucky folks., they have wonderful constitution without which by now they would have become sort of South America..

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Reply #57 - September 18, 2013, 11:36 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on September 18, 2013, 10:57 PM
No that is not from America., that is AMRIKA.. Lucky folks., they have wonderful constitution without which by now they would have become sort of South America..

I don't think it is the constitution that is the difference , the answer is Europeans.

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Reply #58 - September 18, 2013, 11:44 PM

......................

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Reply #59 - September 18, 2013, 11:46 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on September 18, 2013, 11:36 PM
I don't think it is the constitution that is the difference , the answer is Europeans.

Nope. what Europeans?? Black folks and Chinese folks worked their butt off. Some of their ancestors may have come Europe but they were all rebels from Europe.. US of A took off because of its inherent isolation and concentrated intelligentsia after that 2nd world war along with that great little manual " Constitution"

impose that on any country It will flourish..

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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