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Theme Changer

 Topic: Help with these "miracles."

 (Read 3466 times)
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  • Help with these "miracles."
     OP - April 22, 2012, 05:14 PM

    I'm in a debate where a guy thinks the Quran is from God. Please give me feedback from his arguments:

    Quote
    . Historical Accuracies in the Quran


    The Quranic distinction between Pharaoh and King


    In the Quran during the time of Prophet Yusuf (Joseph), the ruler of Egypt is referred to only as King. During the time of Moses, the ruler of Egypt is strictly referred to as Pharaoh. Chronologically, the story of Yusuf (Joseph) takes place before the story of Muusa (Moses) in the Quran (peace be upon both prophets).


    ==Surah Yusuf Chapter 12 Verse 43==

    “The king (of Egypt) said: "I do see (in a vision) seven fat kine, whom seven lean ones devour, and seven green ears of corn, and seven (others) withered. O ye chiefs! Expound to me my vision if it be that ye can interpret visions."


    ==Surah Yusuf Chapter 12 Verse 72==

    “They said: "We miss the great beaker of the king; for him who produces it, is (the reward of) a camel load; I will be bound by it.”


    ==Surah Al Araf Chapter 7 Verse 104==

    “Moses said: "O Pharaoh! I am a messenger from the Lord of the worlds.”


    ==Surah Yunus Chapter 10 Verse 75==

    “Then after them sent We Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh and his chiefs with Our Signs. But they were arrogant: they were a people in sin.”


    From here we can see the ruler of Egypt during the time of Moses is strictly referred to as Pharaoh and that the ruler of Egypt during the time of Prophet Yusuf (Joseph) is referred to only as King (peace be upon the prophets). There are historical reasons for these clear distinctions within the Quran. The time line of Ancient Egypt is provided by the National Geographic [1].It is a well known fact historically that the title of Pharaoh began to come into use in the New Kingdom era of Egypt [2][3]. Before the New Kingdom era they use to refer to the ruler as king not Pharaoh. During the Middle Kingdom for example, the rulers were Theban Kings. So the title Pharaoh is used after the title king is used in ancient Egyptian history. Since the Quran is from Allah, we would expect the Quran to differentiate between this and this is exactly what it does. This matches up exactly with the Quran which makes these key distinctions and as such is historically accurate.


    To Summarize: The Quran says the title King was used before Pharaoh, Ancient Egyptian history shows that the title King was used before Pharaoh


    The Queen of Sheba and Sun Worship


    ==Surah An Naml Chapter 27 Verses 22-24==

    “But the Hoopoe tarried not far: he (came up and) said: "I have compassed (territory) which thou hast not compassed, and I have come to thee from Saba with tidings true.

    "I found (there) a woman ruling over them and provided with every requisite; and she has a magnificent throne.

    "I found her and her people worshipping the sun besides Allah: Satan has made their deeds seem pleasing in their eyes, and has kept them away from the Path,- so they receive no guidance.”


    Prophet Sulaiman (Solomon) (peace be upon him) was informed by the Hoopoe bird that he saw the people of Sheba and the Queen of Sheba. The Quran mentions that they were worshipping a sun diety. The modern evidence for the location of the kingdom of Queen Sheba is Southern Arabia around Yemen [4][5]. The national God of Sheba was called Almaqah. For a long time, people thought that this was a lunar diety. Recent investigations have shown that the characteristics represent a solar diety. This makes the Quran historically accurate with the most recent data (2012) available.


    “Until recently Almaqah was considered to be a moon god, under the influence of a now generally rejected conception of a South Arabian pantheon consisting of an exclusive triad: Father Moon, Mother Sun (the word "sun" is feminine in Arabic), and Son Venus. Recent studies underline that the symbols of the bull's head and the vine motif that are associated with him are solar and Dionysiac attributes and are more consistent with a sun god, a male consort of the sun goddess.”[6]



    2. Scientific accuracies in the Quran


    Oceanography


    ==Surah An Nur Chapter 24 Verse 40==

    “Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!”


    What is most obvious at the beginning is that the Quran mentions darkness in the depths of the ocean. While it may seem obvious to us today, this could not have possibly known during the time the Quran was revealed. This is because man could only have dived at most 20-30m into the ocean. From 0-80m into the ocean is the euphotic zone which is well lit and sufficiently illuminated [7]. This verse in the Glorious Quran then mentions waves, and it clearly mentions waves inside a deep ocean. Therefore, it is mentioning internal waves in the ocean. What is stated in the Quran accurately agrees with modern science. The Massachusetts institute of technology says:


    “internal waves — huge but nearly invisible ripples that occur in the oceans, the atmosphere and stars”[8]


    Water Cycle


    ==Surah Az Zumar Chapter 39 Verse 21==

    “Seest thou not that Allah sends down rain from the sky, and leads it through springs in the earth? Then He causes to grow, therewith, produce of various colours: then it withers; thou wilt see it grow yellow; then He makes it dry up and crumble away. Truly, in this, is a Message of remembrance to men of understanding.”


    The Quran mentions the origins of Groundwater and springs as being rain which goes through the earth. This agrees with science [9]. One might try to argue that this has been copied or plagiarized from Greek philosophers but the fact of the matter is that none of the famous Greek philosophers had a clue about this fact. The Water Problems Institute, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow, Russia states:


    “Aspects of groundwater origin were considered in many projects and philosophic works of the ancient Greek and Roman philosophers (Miletsky, Plato, Aristotle, Kar, Seneka, Pollio etc). The first quantitative concepts of groundwater formation due to infiltration of atmospheric precipitation were formed by French scientists P. Perro and E. Marriott in the middle of the eighteenth century based on the study of water balance in the Seine River” [10]


    This is strong evidence that the origins of Groundwater or springs were not known or even conceived of during the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) but the Quran mentions this amazing fact many centuries ago.


    3. High Quality Literature


    Precise wording of the Quran


    ==Surah Al Imran Chapter 3 Verses 96-97==

    “The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings.

    In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.”


    The name Bakka is an ancient name and another name for Makka, specifically it is for the place of the Kaaba where Muslims perform pilgrimage [11]. The 'b' and the 'm' are interchangable as explained. The root word of Bakka in Arabic means to crowd, to suffocate (stifling) etc [12]. When we analyze the second verse after Bakka is used, this reveals a precision on the use of words within the specific context. The next verse then talks about the obligation of pilgrimage and the word Bakka is a much better word to use then Makka in this context since Bakka specifically refers to the Kaaba and the Kaaba is a place which is crowded with pilgrims. This reveals a precision on the usage of words in the Quran.


    ==>Conclusions<==
    Arguments are unique to the Quran and cannot be applied to other scriptures. The arguments either could not have been known or reveal precision on the Quran, which provide proof that it is from Allah.


    Sources

    http://www.debate.org...


    There is nothing I love more than truth and honesty.
  • Re: Help with these "miracles."
     Reply #1 - April 22, 2012, 10:20 PM

    1. These seem really boring and pointess.  The quran got some historical facts right. who cares



    2. Much of the science stuff has surely been dealt with by others.
    As for the 'water cycle'.  Any idiot can observe that groundwater wells run dry if it doesnt rain.

    "The first quantitative concepts of groundwater formation due to blah blah blah [didnt happen until the 18th century]" means that they had not done any QUANTITATIVE studies. It does not mean that they did not know that groundwater comes from rain.

    Aristotle certainly knew that groundwater comes from rain:

    "It is thought that the water is raised by the sun and descends in rain and gathers below the earth"

    He also knew about evaporation, which is the most interesting part of the water cycle, and the part that the quran doesnt mention.





    3. The 'precise wording' argument sounds like Hamza Tzortzis.  The author of the quran chooses words which are better than other words that could have been used. Wow. big deal. I do that every time i write a sentence.
  • Re: Help with these "miracles."
     Reply #2 - April 22, 2012, 11:38 PM

    dr_sloth:

    Quote
    1. These seem really boring and pointess.  The quran got some historical facts right. who cares


    Think you missed the point of it then...

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Help with these "miracles."
     Reply #3 - April 23, 2012, 12:36 AM

    ApostateDave,

    Are you an Atheist? If so then I can easily inform you that there is no evidence whatsoever that "Joseph" was a real person, let alone a prophet. In fact there is no solid evidence that the Isrealites traveled to Egypt, were held in captivity and then left Egypt and went back to Israel.

    On Joseph here is a quote from wikipedia:

    Quote
    the majority of modern biblical scholars date the Joseph story in its current form to the 5th century BCE Persian era at the earliest

    source

    So if the story dates back to the 5th century BC, then that is at least 1,000 years after the Egyptian New Kingdom (the latest point that the Joseph story could have happened.

    What are the dates that the Koran provides for when this "Joseph" guy went to Egypt? And what are the dates provided in the Koran for when Moses left Egypt? Did Joseph enter Egypt during the Middle Kingdom or the New Kingdom? You won't find any dates because the whole story is likely a fabrication. The Koran never mentions any of the various historical periods of ancient Egypt.

    So if there is no evidence that Joseph even existed, then what is the point of saying the Koran got history right when there is no evidence that any of the story is right in the first place?

    Quote
    Prophet Sulaiman (Solomon) (peace be upon him) was informed by the Hoopoe bird


    Talking birds? Is someone seriously using talking birds as proof that the Koran is right?

    Quote
    The modern evidence for the location of the kingdom of Queen Sheba is Southern Arabia around Yemen....


     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy There is absolutely no modern evidence for any Queen of Sheba in Yemen! There is a tentative connection between "Sheba" and the Sabaeans who lived in Yemen. But the archaeological evidence of the Sabaeans comes mainly from the early Roman period (i.e 1st Century BC), about 800 years after the time of King Solomon. Many ancient peoples had Sun Gods. And it is hardly astounding that Mo was able to say that a neighboring people (i.e. Yemenis) used to worship the sun. Why didn't God tell Mo about how the Mayans worship the sun or how the Aztecs will one day worship the sun? If God was serious about proving his existence he would have told Mo about a people that never had contact with Arabia, that would have been knowledge that no human could have known at the time. Yet the Koran is totally silent on the civilizations of the Americas, why is that?

    1. These seem really boring and pointess.  The quran got some historical facts right. who cares


    Yes, precisely. Getting stuff right about the past is easy. If National Geographic says that the Middle Kingdom rulers were called "kings" does that mean that National Geographic is also from God?

    The real test of a Prophet is what does he says about the future, not the past! There is not a single accurate prediction in the entire Koran. All of the supposed earthquakes that God made happen were before the Koran, not after. If God really makes earthquakes happen then why didn't he tell Mo about one that he would make happen in the future and give him a precise date?
  • Re: Help with these "miracles."
     Reply #4 - April 23, 2012, 01:06 AM

    I have done some more research on wikipedia and it turns out there is evidence for a sun or moon God called Al-Maqah among the Sabeans in an older period, pretty close to the time of Solomon. So scratch what I said about "the evidence mainly comes from the early Roman Era". But nevertheless the main point still stands, any reference to a Sun-God from the Koran is extremely vague. Why didn't the Koran specifically identify this God by name (Al-Maqah?) Also the Sabeans were polytheistic, they had many Gods, yet the Koran only mentions one.
  • Re: Help with these "miracles."
     Reply #5 - April 23, 2012, 10:52 AM

    dr_sloth:

    Think you missed the point of it then...


    no i didnt: the point is " Since the Quran is from Allah, we would expect the Quran to differentiate between this and this is exactly what it does"

    my response is who cares?
    I would also expect a faker and a fraud to make the exact same differentiation.


    Getting historical facts right is the very minimum you expect from a god. It is a necessary indicator, not a sufficient one.
  • Re: Help with these "miracles."
     Reply #6 - April 23, 2012, 02:32 PM

    On King (malik) vs Pharoah (firaun), the Qur'an just copied the bible, which with a few exceptions made the same distinction in its stories of Joseph and Moses. The hebrew even has a similar sounding word melek for the Joseph stories. Plus as Tonyt says there's no evidence Joseph existed and we don't know when the story is even set (so how can anyone say it fits the terminology of the time?).
  • Re: Help with these "miracles."
     Reply #7 - April 23, 2012, 06:38 PM

    i may sound completely off the plot, but i lliked the story of Yousef and Zulaykha
    (watched a televison series on it a couple of years ago)

    i thought that yousef was the advisor to Amenhhotep 4th, who then changed his name to Akhenatun which translates as "the one beneficial/effective for the Aten," the Aten was the sun God, it was at this time that monotheism was introduced to Egypt, by the great influence of Yousef.
    And since Yousef was the slave of some government official of the previous king, he must have been around about 1390-1353 BC.


    feel free to dispute!!!  Afro

    "the question is" said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be the master- that`s all."
    Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking- Glass.
  • Re: Help with these "miracles."
     Reply #8 - April 23, 2012, 07:26 PM

    i may sound completely off the plot, but i lliked the story of Yousef and Zulaykha
    (watched a televison series on it a couple of years ago)

    i thought that yousef was the advisor to Amenhhotep 4th, who then changed his name to Akhenatun which translates as "the one beneficial/effective for the Aten," the Aten was the sun God, it was at this time that monotheism was introduced to Egypt, by the great influence of Yousef.
    And since Yousef was the slave of some government official of the previous king, he must have been around about 1390-1353 BC.


    feel free to dispute!!!  Afro


    Is this what it said on the tv show? I have never heard of an advisor to Akhenaten called "yousef". It sounds a bit suspect to me as Yousef is a Jewish name, not Egyptian. I just did a google search for "advisor to akhenaten" and all that comes up is that he had an advisor called Ay, who apparently seized the throne of Egypt some years later after the death of Tutankamun.

    But nevertheless I do love the story of Akhenaten, he made a poem called Hym to the Aten. Which has actually survived and can be read on the wikipedia page here. Apparently some scholars have speculated that Psalm 104 of the Hebrew Bible may have been influenced by this hymn.

    Oh I also found this story about a guy called Osarseph recounted by the Jewish Historian Josephus of the 1st Century AD. Interesting stuff. Is the Jospeh story based on this Osarseph guy? Or is this Osarseph guy baed on joseph? Who knows?
  • Re: Help with these "miracles."
     Reply #9 - April 23, 2012, 09:14 PM

    well its on youtube,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgU__EZgX0I
    its quite long! and no- the characters arent as attractive as in The Mummy!

    yes Ay then does take over, and then there is some quarrel leading to polytheism being spread once more, as Tutukhanum was very young and hence others were able to influence him, which may perhaps explain the limitied knowledge on Akhenatuns rule. Religeon was key to money and power, which the polythesist priests made full use of, which is perhaps why akhenatun followed a sun god, as it meant more control, the priests were now not needed so his place as supreme leader was safe, and strengthened.

    Osarseph and Yousef sound very similiar, as it is said that Yousef begins the whole graining system for the drought, because "God" tells him of the upcomming drought and so he can plan, which becomes his first project within the top hierachy. and he was not accepted by the opposing priests because of his beliefs, and the fact he was an outsider. not Egyption.

    and the dates can be stated through history books, i read a brief book on Tutukhamun and Akhenatun, and ideas "match." Even if you check out Nefertirri, the wife of Akhenatun.

    logically, a sun-god fits the right critieria of a God, because he is free of human form, therefore can be moulded into anything really, which Akhenatun perhaps exploited.




    "the question is" said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be the master- that`s all."
    Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking- Glass.
  • Re: Help with these "miracles."
     Reply #10 - April 24, 2012, 07:24 AM

    not this stuff again  015

  • Re: Help with these "miracles."
     Reply #11 - April 24, 2012, 02:41 PM

    well its on youtube,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgU__EZgX0I
    its quite long! and no- the characters arent as attractive as in The Mummy!


    Damn that is some religious drama in Arabic with english subtitles! I don't think I can bear watching that. I thought you meant that it was a documentary tracing the parrelels between the Biblical story of Joseph and the archeaological evidence in Egypt, but it is nothing of the sort.

    as it is said that Yousef begins the whole graining system for the drought, because "God" tells him of the upcomming drought and so he can plan, which becomes his first project within the top hierachy.


    Yes I like the story too. In fact is the only part of the whole Hebrew Bible that aroused any emotion in me whatsoever. When he meets his brothers again in Egypt and he conceals his identity but he can barely hold back his tears. It is the only part of the Old Testament that actually displays human beings as being emotional and deep.

    But I do not really see the parellels with the Pharoah Akhenaten. What are they?
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